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Thread: Guy caught using GTOWizard solver at live event at WPT Gardens in LA, acts like it's no big deal

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Guy caught using GTOWizard solver at live event at WPT Gardens in LA, acts like it's no big deal

    https://twitter.com/JoshuaArieh/status/1661159857024540672

    Someone on Twitter says the solver user is Andrew Esposito. I haven't verified this, but nobody is pushing back on that, so it's likely.

    The guy calling him out is named Peter Cross, who has a good reputation and isn't known to start drama over bullshit. As you can see, the guy admits it was "just one hand", so he's not denying using GTOWizard -- just denying he was using it the whole time!

    Amazingly, the floor seems more concerned about Cross loudly complaining about it, than the actual cheating going on!

    Notice how arrogant this dude is about what he's doing, accusing Cross of "trippin'" and saying "just one hand" as if that makes it okay.

    GTOWizard takes inputs regarding stack sizes, position, cards, and opponent action, and recommends a supposedly GTO solution. It does not have any "delay", and thus can be used for real time assistance, which is obviously cheating.

    This should be banned from all live tournaments, and there should be strict rules against it, announced at the beginning of the tournament and printed on the structure sheet.

    First instance caught using it should be disqualification, and second instance should be a ban.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Confirmed Andrew Esposito.

    He appeared on Spaces tonight (along with the guy who called him out, Peter Cross), and it was argued out.

    I actually briefly came on to discuss it, too, but Andrew had just left when I got on.

    Surprisingly, some people seem to have a hard time understanding that we can have a middle ground between allowing this and banning phone use at the table.

    You can simply make a rule against using any kinds of solvers or assistance programs at the table, with the threat or a harsh consequence if caught. Whether it's easy to enforce, and whether it's giving people a small or big edge, is not important.

    Just make a rule against it and enforce when possible. This will be a big deterrent, because nobody wants to get disqualified or banned. Yes, a few idiots will break the rule and get away with it, but this will put a stop to a lot of it.

    Sean McCormack (head of poker for MGM properties) briefly came on, and basically took a position very similar to mine, so I'm glad to see that an influential person in the Vegas poker scene sees it this way.

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    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    I remember phones being banned at the tables in the Foxwoods poker room. You had to sit out if you used your phone.

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    Gold sah_24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    I remember phones being banned at the tables in the Foxwoods poker room. You had to sit out if you used your phone.
    Hand should be dead if you have your phone out with a hand ...

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    I believe that one argument players use for needing constant use of their phones at the table is that they are playing app games, etc.

    I'm fine with that crowd having to choose between either playing app games or live poker at any given time.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowRoll View Post
    I believe that one argument players use for needing constant use of their phones at the table is that they are playing app games, etc.

    I'm fine with that crowd having to choose between either playing app games or live poker at any given time.
    In order to get people on WSOP.com (which is still a failsite even during the increased traffic from the summer WSOP), they allow you to play WSOP.com WHILE in live WSOP events. You are actually allowed to hold up the game while in a WSOP.com hand! I'm not kidding.

    Very few people do this, especially since WSOP.com simply doesn't have much action. I've seen people playing on it a few times while in events with me, but it's uncommon.

    So at the WSOP, there's zero point zero chance they will eliminate phone usage at the table (for this and many other reasons), and zero point zero chance they will disallow playing games while at the table.

    What they simply need to do is disallow using any kind of strategy tool while physically in the poker room, with a harsh penalty for being caught doing so.

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    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sah_24 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    I remember phones being banned at the tables in the Foxwoods poker room. You had to sit out if you used your phone.
    Hand should be dead if you have your phone out with a hand ...
    I was full time 2007/2008’ish. No phones was just something we all abided by.

    Here’s the deal, as far as the casino is concerned poker is a marginally profitable use of space. If they can keep the game moving more rake. I think that was the only reason phones were banned while playing.

    I’m not of the opinion that legal card rooms are not evangelical about preventing cheating unless it interferes with business. If people insist on having phones at the table in the age of AI and solvers - casinos will just shrug their shoulders. Poker room managers aren’t gonna wanna be your nanny.

    HUDs at the tables though. That’s something I didn’t foresee.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    There was another Spaces debate about this tonight. Wasn't recorded so you can't go back and listen.

    Matt Berkey was again on the side of having the game "evolve" and simply allow people to do whatever they want in between hands. I was on the side of making a stiff rule against it which will deter most people from doing it.

    There was some disagreement on how prevalent this is. Berkey feels that recreational players are all over this stuff because they want to learn, citing that his own Solve For Why courses are mostly recs. My point is that recreational players barely use this stuff, and don't even know what it is. I think the percentage of recreational players using this at the table is extremely low, approaching zero.

    Berkey repeated that the edge isn't that great with these things, because they can only solve for one particular thing you predict will happen the next hand, thus the edge you gain is small. I said that I agree the edge isn't huge, but that's the reason a strong penalty would work -- people would not want to risk a ban from the WSOP in order to gain this small edge.

    Anyway, we just see this two entirely different ways. Matt thinks the game is evolving and it's a fool's errand to try to stop it. I think that it isn't particularly difficult to stop occurring by simply making harsh consequences for doing it, and that it's important to maintain the pure theme of live poker where you are not playing with any technology giving you help.

    I believe more players want to see these tools banned than those who want to see it allowed.

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    Gold sah_24's Avatar
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    Berkey is a self absorbed moron ... like Phil Galfond

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    What’s the fun of going to player live poker and using a solver?

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    WSOP has made a statement regarding the rule covering solvers at the table: https://www.pokernews.com/news/2023/...ules-43648.htm

    If caught using RTA/GTO software during a hand, player will be subject to penalty up to and including DQ (disqualification) / trespass. We reserve the right to further penalize a player for using RTA/GTO in any other situation in our sole and absolute discretion. Players may continue to use their device to play wsop.com or use the Caesars Sportsbook app while in/out of a hand.
    This is kind of a weird statement, and it appears to be a middle ground between my desired solution (completely disallow the usage of such tools except on break) and Berkey's solution (completely allow them, except during hands).

    This makes it ban-worthy to be caught using it during a hand (obvious), and gives them the right to penalize players using solvers while not in a hand, but also gives them the right NOT to penalize players using solvers while not in a hand.

    Confused yet?

    Basically the WSOP wants the ability to make their own judgment calls. If it seems someone is just consulting a solver occasionally, they'll probably let it slide. If it seems someone is constantly using it like Andrew Espoito was accused of doing at Gardens, then they'll either warn or penalize the person.

    They don't want to feel bound to penalizing someone caught using it once, nor do they want to be bound to allowing unlimited "between hand" solver usage because the official rules allow it. So this is a "we'll know abuse when we see it" solution, which is better than completely allowing it like Berkey wanted, but not what I was hoping for either.

    Not a huge deal because this tends to only matter at the late stages, and doesn't give you a huge additional edge. Still, I'd like to see these just outlawed completely, even if not all that enforceable.

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    Platinum Jayjami's Avatar
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    I miss the days when us players would have handled it ourselves. Ovaltine is right. Poker had become faggot.

     
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