Netflix The Alpinist

[gimmick]

No, regular screen.

There's a theater in town that airs all those type of docs.

Got to see Free Solo with Alex Honnold in the building who did a Q&A afterwards.

Have done a lot of the mountains in the Pacific Northwest and climb at a gym as well but did proper rock climbing in a canyon in Wyoming this fall; obv roped up but looking down at 200+ feet was probably scariest moment of my life.

I ended up pausing and looking up this kid as I found him entertaining during the doc. His competitive streak when he went back out and shaved almost 20 minutes off his recently broke speed record and put it out of reach.

There was something about all those dudes, like they were not human and lacked some fear gene.

I found this interesting when I looked him up.

In 2016, he was subjected to Functional magnetic resonance imaging scans that revealed that, unlike other high sensation seekers, his amygdala barely activates when watching disturbing images. He however confesses feeling fear occasionally. Through imagination and practice, he has desensitized himself to most fearful situations.

I’m surprised they don’t all have that result on a test. How calm they were I couldn’t grasp. That guy making the doc who said he still doesn’t understand them after twenty years, I get that. I don’t understand how they’re wired either. It wouldn’t matter how good I was in some gym setting, once I got out on the mountain, they’d need to helicopter me out of there. I’d be clinging to the hill crying.

Sounds like sociopath tbh. They don't really use that word when they aren't looking to vilify someone. It overlaps heavily with ADHD. Anyways i'd have to hear him talk for a while. Just guessing from looking at the story where that quote came from.

[Texter]

Just the first 5 minutes is nuts…ha.

[Sloppy Joe]

I ended up pausing and looking up this kid as I found him entertaining during the doc. His competitive streak when he went back out and shaved almost 20 minutes off his recently broke speed record and put it out of reach.

There was something about all those dudes, like they were not human and lacked some fear gene.

I found this interesting when I looked him up.

In 2016, he was subjected to Functional magnetic resonance imaging scans that revealed that, unlike other high sensation seekers, his amygdala barely activates when watching disturbing images. He however confesses feeling fear occasionally. Through imagination and practice, he has desensitized himself to most fearful situations.

I’m surprised they don’t all have that result on a test. How calm they were I couldn’t grasp. That guy making the doc who said he still doesn’t understand them after twenty years, I get that. I don’t understand how they’re wired either. It wouldn’t matter how good I was in some gym setting, once I got out on the mountain, they’d need to helicopter me out of there. I’d be clinging to the hill crying.

Sounds like sociopath tbh. They don't really use that word when they aren't looking to vilify someone. It overlaps heavily with ADHD. Anyways i'd have to hear him talk for a while. Just guessing from looking at the story where that quote came from.

Def think some Asperger's is in play with both of them.

Both say it's not for adrenaline at all, which I believe, although have never ice climbed and probably never will.

There is a mindfulness that comes with it, being high up with amazing nature around and having to be fully locked in.

In my case, a fall is usually scary and probably painful. In their case, it's instant death.

[gimmick]

Sounds like sociopath tbh. They don't really use that word when they aren't looking to vilify someone. It overlaps heavily with ADHD. Anyways i'd have to hear him talk for a while. Just guessing from looking at the story where that quote came from.

Def think some Asperger's is in play with both of them.

Both say it's not for adrenaline at all, which I believe, although have never ice climbed and probably never will.

There is a mindfulness that comes with it, being high up with amazing nature around and having to be fully locked in.

In my case, a fall is usually scary and probably painful. In their case, it's instant death.

There's a small overlap with asperger/autism and ASPD in how they have limited empathy, lack innate ability to read/interact with people and comorbidity with ADHD. Both are kinda umbrella categories for different personality disorders.

But anyways they differ with stress tolerance, anxiety and how they deal with stimuli.

Basically people with Asperger don't live in a van for 10 years travelling from mountain to mountain. They don't really seek activities where awareness of your surroundings is vital for your survival. They stress about stuff and they definitely know fear.

Dunno about the other guy. I just checked up Honnold.

[gimmick]

If you know what to look for, this is decent for it...



...obv not just this clip. Some additional background info and actions in general.

Anyways in that clip he's mostly giddy, wired and barely blinks. Talks mile a minute, but very clear, on point and doesn't waste any words. Very methodical and informative while coming off casual. In general that's a subject he knows about a lot. That's meaningful him.

In other social context (assume bigger gatherings) he's described as introverted and awkward around people. He doesn't care about filtering himself, random small talk or anything resembling networking. For him that's a waste of time.

He's lived a nomadic lifestyle for most of his adulthood. To a degree parasitic lifestyle as well. He quit Berkley to climb mountains. He lived off his fathers life insurance till he got enough exposure to get sponsored. His mother didn't see anything odd about that.

The adrenaline bit is half true. He doesn't seek a rush. That's not the thing. It's the calming effect that comes from occupying your mind. There needs to be something at stake. Otherwise it doesn't work because it's pointless. So it's either personal achievement, competition or elevated danger for people that are wired like him.

In context almost none of the above is true for ASD (it's where Asperger's is now). It's somewhat common for people with primary psychopathy (the latest buzz word for something old). There's quite a lot of crap that get's added to psychopathy, because a lot of studies still have their foundation in studies of prison populations and asylums from the 40s and 70s. There might have been a slight selection bias tinting those studies.

[Sanlmar]

Let’s be careful not to wander down the road of predestiny Gimmick. I love it though.

Care to take a run at LeClerc ?

“calming effect that comes from occupying your mind.” LeClerc says as much outright. Calms his “squirrel brain” as I pointed out in an earlier post.

His mother was extraordinary, loving and indulged his interests and encouraged him to live a fulfilling life that necessarily included a high risk of death. Poetry. Home schooling an ADHD kid. Tips cap

[sonatine]

If you know what to look for, this is decent for it...



...obv not just this clip. Some additional background info and actions in general.

Anyways in that clip he's mostly giddy, wired and barely blinks. Talks mile a minute, but very clear, on point and doesn't waste any words. Very methodical and informative while coming off casual. In general that's a subject he knows about a lot. That's meaningful him.

In other social context (assume bigger gatherings) he's described as introverted and awkward around people. He doesn't care about filtering himself, random small talk or anything resembling networking. For him that's a waste of time.

He's lived a nomadic lifestyle for most of his adulthood. To a degree parasitic lifestyle as well. He quit Berkley to climb mountains. He lived off his fathers life insurance till he got enough exposure to get sponsored. His mother didn't see anything odd about that.

The adrenaline bit is half true. He doesn't seek a rush. That's not the thing. It's the calming effect that comes from occupying your mind. There needs to be something at stake. Otherwise it doesn't work because it's pointless. So it's either personal achievement, competition or elevated danger for people that are wired like him.

In context almost none of the above is true for ASD (it's where Asperger's is now). It's somewhat common for people with primary psychopathy (the latest buzz word for something old). There's quite a lot of crap that get's added to psychopathy, because a lot of studies still have their foundation in studies of prison populations and asylums from the 40s and 70s. There might have been a slight selection bias tinting those studies.

yeah i was going to say, the suppressed fear response stuff is psychopathic, not sociopathic.

also one has to consider that it may not be a huge rush for him because hes become better and better at this incrementally for a very long time, so theres seriously a 'just another day at the office' element to it where we view it through the lens of *our* risk levels, not his. which is to say hes very good at it to the point where its not actually that risky for him. or at least thats how he feels.

one of the most traumatic things ive ever seen on the internet is footage of a guy who just ran out of steam towards the top of a climb. his arms just stopped working and you he couldnt quite pull himself to safety and you can watch him start to realize that hes about to fall and die a long fucking time before it happens.

[nightmarefish]

Maybe the most normal and interesting thread on PFA in years.

Thanks to all the contributors and Merry Christmas.

[Sloppy Joe]

If you know what to look for, this is decent for it...



...obv not just this clip. Some additional background info and actions in general.

Anyways in that clip he's mostly giddy, wired and barely blinks. Talks mile a minute, but very clear, on point and doesn't waste any words. Very methodical and informative while coming off casual. In general that's a subject he knows about a lot. That's meaningful him.

In other social context (assume bigger gatherings) he's described as introverted and awkward around people. He doesn't care about filtering himself, random small talk or anything resembling networking. For him that's a waste of time.

He's lived a nomadic lifestyle for most of his adulthood. To a degree parasitic lifestyle as well. He quit Berkley to climb mountains. He lived off his fathers life insurance till he got enough exposure to get sponsored. His mother didn't see anything odd about that.

The adrenaline bit is half true. He doesn't seek a rush. That's not the thing. It's the calming effect that comes from occupying your mind. There needs to be something at stake. Otherwise it doesn't work because it's pointless. So it's either personal achievement, competition or elevated danger for people that are wired like him.

In context almost none of the above is true for ASD (it's where Asperger's is now). It's somewhat common for people with primary psychopathy (the latest buzz word for something old). There's quite a lot of crap that get's added to psychopathy, because a lot of studies still have their foundation in studies of prison populations and asylums from the 40s and 70s. There might have been a slight selection bias tinting those studies.

yeah i was going to say, the suppressed fear response stuff is psychopathic, not sociopathic.

also one has to consider that it may not be a huge rush for him because hes become better and better at this incrementally for a very long time, so theres seriously a 'just another day at the office' element to it where we view it through the lens of *our* risk levels, not his. which is to say hes very good at it to the point where its not actually that risky for him. or at least thats how he feels.

one of the most traumatic things ive ever seen on the internet is footage of a guy who just ran out of steam towards the top of a climb. his arms just stopped working and you he couldnt quite pull himself to safety and you can watch him start to realize that hes about to fall and die a long fucking time before it happens.

Yeah, the guys who solo usually climb the route dozens of times; there's almost never any improvisation.

All the guys who do it come off the same - mellow, confident and accepting of the risks. It's never some jacked up blowhard looking for a rush.

The pathology of the guy in The Alpinist takes it next level; ice climbing is often improvised as conditions change hourly unlike rock. Probably not another person alive that will solo ice climb the Emperor Face in the Canadian Rockies.


Obviously they're wired super differently - the climbers who do the harder technical routes are always roped and work on lines for months/years before sending.

[Baron Von Strucker]

~25 yrs ago I was fully immersed in rock climbing, Ice climbing, ski mountaineering, most anything dangerous and out doors.
Looking back makes my hands sweat the amount of times a small error would have been the end... proven by the many friends I have known that have died while participating in these activities. I haven't been involved in many years as i have "responsibilities" to my family before i croak.
I have a lot of experiences to look back on and reflect how fucking lucky i have been in life.
regarding free climbing I have experienced a few times being passed by someone unencumbered with ropes, any protective gear other than a chalk bag and hiking shoes. A buddy and I were on the grand wall of a fairly famous climbing area in Squamish BC. we were on a route called Cruel Shoes 5 10d 200m long we had all the gear two ropes, two full 30 litre back packs to make this climb. I was going to take us ~3 hours to complete, the fellow who passed us was done in 20 minutes or he made a mistake and slipped on a patch of moss and then dead...
these guys most always never die of natural causes. there was a really cool guy Dan Osman fucking amazing free climber constantly pushed the envelope was in all the magazines and revered in his sport till he made a mistake and dies.... from a very long fall and quick stop, leaving behind a beautiful wife and small child to really suffer and greave for there loss.
getting to my point is some opinions regarding taking unnecessary risks ie very dangerous climbs with out fall protection because it is more manly, save time, thrill seeking is widely considered super selfish. even if they practiced the routes 1000 times with ropes most eventually make a mistake at the worst time and in a blink of a eye gone.

like this beautiful man.
Dan Osman

[gimmick]

If you know what to look for, this is decent for it...



...obv not just this clip. Some additional background info and actions in general.

Anyways in that clip he's mostly giddy, wired and barely blinks. Talks mile a minute, but very clear, on point and doesn't waste any words. Very methodical and informative while coming off casual. In general that's a subject he knows about a lot. That's meaningful him.

In other social context (assume bigger gatherings) he's described as introverted and awkward around people. He doesn't care about filtering himself, random small talk or anything resembling networking. For him that's a waste of time.

He's lived a nomadic lifestyle for most of his adulthood. To a degree parasitic lifestyle as well. He quit Berkley to climb mountains. He lived off his fathers life insurance till he got enough exposure to get sponsored. His mother didn't see anything odd about that.

The adrenaline bit is half true. He doesn't seek a rush. That's not the thing. It's the calming effect that comes from occupying your mind. There needs to be something at stake. Otherwise it doesn't work because it's pointless. So it's either personal achievement, competition or elevated danger for people that are wired like him.

In context almost none of the above is true for ASD (it's where Asperger's is now). It's somewhat common for people with primary psychopathy (the latest buzz word for something old). There's quite a lot of crap that get's added to psychopathy, because a lot of studies still have their foundation in studies of prison populations and asylums from the 40s and 70s. There might have been a slight selection bias tinting those studies.

yeah i was going to say, the suppressed fear response stuff is psychopathic, not sociopathic.

also one has to consider that it may not be a huge rush for him because hes become better and better at this incrementally for a very long time, so theres seriously a 'just another day at the office' element to it where we view it through the lens of *our* risk levels, not his. which is to say hes very good at it to the point where its not actually that risky for him. or at least thats how he feels.

one of the most traumatic things ive ever seen on the internet is footage of a guy who just ran out of steam towards the top of a climb. his arms just stopped working and you he couldnt quite pull himself to safety and you can watch him start to realize that hes about to fall and die a long fucking time before it happens.

I at times use them interchangeably, since there isn't a common definition for either. They rarely exist both as diagnostic definitions.

You can use them to separate at what point physiological changes happened in the structure of the brain. There's a lot of overlap with "symptoms" though. Fear response, inability learn from punishment and impulsivity are to a degree shared traits.

If you use sociopath to describe secondary psychopaths, that would usually mean some early childhood trauma. Enough to trigger epigenetic switches. It causes a "normal" kid to become something else as a survival mechanism.

Primary psychopaths (natural born) never were anything else. They never have to adjust to changing. They just differ from their peers. They lack the innate ability to read/communicate with non verbal cues. If they care, they can become better than neurotypicals at using them. Most just learn pragmatic ways of dealing with neurotypicals.

From Honnold i got natural born vibes. His parents are Polish from one side and German from the other. Both born few years after the war. I don't know where his grandparents were during the war. His parents waited till Honnold graduated from high school i think before they got divorced. It apparently didn't come as a surprise to Alex or his sister. Guessing there was some turmoil during their upbringing.

For both primary and secondary you need a certain set of genes. For epigenetic changes you need more from environment vs keeping status quo. I'm guessing it's a mechanism that plays it safe. No idea if primary psychopaths can switch it off at such early childhood that it effects how their brain is built. It's possible that they can only pass those genes switched off if they deem it appropriate.

[gimmick]

Let’s be careful not to wander down the road of predestiny Gimmick. I love it though.

Care to take a run at LeClerc ?

“calming effect that comes from occupying your mind.” LeClerc says as much outright. Calms his “squirrel brain” as I pointed out in an earlier post.

His mother was extraordinary, loving and indulged his interests and encouraged him to live a fulfilling life that necessarily included a high risk of death. Poetry. Home schooling an ADHD kid. Tips cap

I'll look at it at some point. Likely same as Honnold.

I'm not saying anything as a negative though. It is what it is. Most psychopaths are biggest danger to themselves.

Not really hard to spot and half decent psychiatrists could give that diagnosis to a good amount kids under 6 years old. It's just casually demonized to a degree where correct diagnosis causes more problems to kids than not saying anything. Also the whole long distance diagnose part that's a reasonable cop-out for anyone with a license.

[Sanlmar]

Maybe the most normal and interesting thread on PFA in years.

Thanks to all the contributors and Merry Christmas.

Here, here!

I was quick to see this flick as a character study and not some Warren Miller style ode to soloing.

Just loving the contributions. This runs deeper than I imagined.

There was a story about a professor who was doing a study on psychopaths using brain scans. Took his own and his family’s scans too as control data. It was determined he and his kin was “dark” in all the wrong places like the prisoners who were carried in in shackles.

Professor later learned his family was related to a Lizzie Borden and several murders occupied their history too. Wife was not surprised he fell into the psychopath category.

Was a Ted talk. Too lazy to look.

[gimmick]

[gimmick]

[gimmick]

I didn't really find enough footage of Leclerc to say too much.

Regarding Fallon i don't necessarily agree too much with how he sees the subject. He mostly describes secondary psychopaths, but even out of those there are very few serial killers or mass murderers. A lot of common criminals for sure and most overlap with ADHD. They sort of lack the ability hold a steady job, but they do have a built in skill set for career crime.

Most "psychopath killers" are schizophrenic/psychotic. Manson is the only one that's kind of close. I think he was also diagnosed with schizophrenia and paranoid delusional disorder.

edit: Bundy also. "Widiger says Cleckley's analysis is mostly accurate. "However, Bundy would also be diagnosed with necrophilia, paraphilia and sadism more precisely."

[gimmick]

Regarding how to spot psychopaths, i guess that would be same as asking OSA how gaydar works.

Clinically it's easier with direct interviews, brain scans, questionnaires and family/background history type of stuff. What's included and what's excluded.

Certain personality types are easier to spot from limited information. Out of footage it's easier if it's from reacting to something. Out of second hand stories you would like to know interactions with strangers, people close to them and how they see him.





For natural born, look for cats that live in a world ruled by dogs. Look for kids that never grow up. For driven and successful people look for certain contradictory behavior. Like a very calm and nice person that's blunt/rude, literally doesn't give fuck and seems hyper/high. Reaction of giddiness with memories of near death experiences or what most people would describe as agony. Ability to completely brush off the connection of memory to the event. Meticulous/calculated in extremely reckless endeavors. That type of stuff.

Sort of see if you can reach a certain threshold with appropriate tidbits that can't really be explained by alternative theories.

[sonatine]

the thing i find interesting about psychopath/sociopathic, much more interesting than the constantly shifting line between them, is that for hundreds if not thousands of years, we regularly had Big Fucking Wars where all the psychopaths would get their opportunity to shine at the front lines.

these days they are stacking up and breeding and passing on those genes, creating an exponentially growing bloom of intraspecies predators.

im sure its just a big misunderstanding tho.

[gimmick]

The predator bit might have been popularized by Cleckley. He created two pervasive myths. Multiple personality disorder and psychopathy. Both obv exist, but solid 90% of the work was BS.

In other medical fields he would have been characterized as a hack. With psychiatry there are slightly lower standards. He essentially wrote click bait books. More sensational the better.

[gimmick]