An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

[TheXFactor]

You need a better mask.

[donkdowndonedied]

The problem is that the scientific community has become intimidated by the forces of groupthink.

Remember when "scientists" and "experts" agreed that the Lab Leak Theory was conspiratorial, racist nonsense, to the point where expressing curiosity about that theory would result in bans from Twitter?

All of a sudden, with absolutely no new data to change the situation, that became a viable theory in that same scientific community in 2021.

That wasn't a matter of a breakthrough discovering changing scientific consensus. It was a willingness to engage in groupthink in order to oust the bogeyman (one Donald Trump), and then a relaxation of that groupthink once that task was accomplished.

Politics has entered science, and that's a really bad thing. Any scientist coming down on the anti-mask side -- or even away from the pro-mask side -- could face career ramifications that he/she probably wouldn't want to deal with. The few who have spoken out against left-wing COVID dogma have been basically shamed out of existence.

Keep in mind that I am no happier with some of the right wing antics which have both denied COVID's seriousness and opposed the well-established reasoning for vaccination.

However, never have I had such little trust in the "experts" as I do today, and that's a really bad thing.

The scientific community is a victim of groupthink just like any other group. This is true. Regardless, the groupthink displayed by your side in this area is based on anecdotal nonsense and/or fake news and dwarves anything from the left.

When people pushed back against the China-lab theory it was because there was literally no actual evidence behind it except that there was a bio-lab in the rough vicinity of the area the virus likely originated. The whole rumor was fed by Trump for his purposes and suited no one else.

Later, other studies suggested that maybe it was true and possibly the virus did originate in a lab. At that point, there was at least a scientific basis behind the lab theory.

That isn't group think. It was far more groupthink to get behind Trump and chant the China! China! China!

To be clear, one of the few things Trump did that was really useful is start to point out to Americans that China is not our ally. Yet listening to anti-Chinese baseless rumors from a halfwit is not something I will be accepting. That is not groupthink. I promise.

This is the same guy that says the AZ audit showed he was cheated when it showed far more mistakes made in Trump's favor. By Druff's definition, it is group think for me to deny that nonsensical bullshit. Druff, if I am wrong then please feel free to explain.

[v12cl]

Remember when China welded people into their houses, released fake videos of people dropping dead on the streets, and blamed the wet market for Covid to distract from the lab?

Yeah, me neither.

[Sanlmar]

.

That isn't group think. It was far more groupthink to get behind Trump and chant the China! China! China!

To be clear, one of the few things Trump did that was really useful is start to point out to Americans that China is not our ally. Yet listening to anti-Chinese baseless rumors from a halfwit is not something I will be accepting. That is not groupthink. I promise..

This is what quality balanced posting looks like Druff.

[Sanlmar]

Remember when China welded people into their houses, released fake videos of people dropping dead on the streets, and blamed the wet market for Covid.

Yeah, me neither.

Remember when California local health officials sounded the alarm after viewing these videos and nobody listened?

Michael Lewis wrote a book about it.

[v12cl]

Remember when China welded people into their houses, released fake videos of people dropping dead on the streets, and blamed the wet market for Covid.

Yeah, me neither.

Remember when California local health officials sounded the alarm after viewing these videos and nobody listened?

Michael Lewis wrote a book about it.

Sounded the alarm, you mean fell for it hook, line and sinker, then responded by pushing CCP style lockdowns, which the rest of the country followed.

"From 2 weeks to slow the spread" to "not until there is 99% vaccination" will covid be over, and freedom be restored.

Can you really be this gullible?

[Sanlmar]

Remember when California local health officials sounded the alarm after viewing these videos and nobody listened?

Michael Lewis wrote a book about it.

Sounded the alarm, you mean fell for it hook, line and sinker, then responded by pushing CCP style lockdowns, which the rest of the country followed.

"From 2 weeks to slow the spread" to "not until there is 99% vaccination" will covid be over, and freedom be restored.

Can you really be this gullible?

You’re ignoring the time frame. By the time anyone acknowledged there was a problem it was too late. The bureaucratic establishment wanted confirmation which is exactly opposite swift and effective response.

It is fascinating to see how early scientists and certain public health officials saw and reported evidence. Some of the stories give you chills. Too little too late.

Otherwise, I refuse to get involved with California politics

[JeffDime]

Regardless of how you feel about the effectiveness of masks, I think we all can agree that Aria/PokerGo is doing a piss poor job with Alex Foxen. The only thing this face shield is good for is decreasing blood splatter on your face when murdering people with a chainsaw.

[Dan Druff]

The problem is that the scientific community has become intimidated by the forces of groupthink.

Remember when "scientists" and "experts" agreed that the Lab Leak Theory was conspiratorial, racist nonsense, to the point where expressing curiosity about that theory would result in bans from Twitter?

All of a sudden, with absolutely no new data to change the situation, that became a viable theory in that same scientific community in 2021.

That wasn't a matter of a breakthrough discovering changing scientific consensus. It was a willingness to engage in groupthink in order to oust the bogeyman (one Donald Trump), and then a relaxation of that groupthink once that task was accomplished.

Politics has entered science, and that's a really bad thing. Any scientist coming down on the anti-mask side -- or even away from the pro-mask side -- could face career ramifications that he/she probably wouldn't want to deal with. The few who have spoken out against left-wing COVID dogma have been basically shamed out of existence.

Keep in mind that I am no happier with some of the right wing antics which have both denied COVID's seriousness and opposed the well-established reasoning for vaccination.

However, never have I had such little trust in the "experts" as I do today, and that's a really bad thing.

The scientific community is a victim of groupthink just like any other group. This is true. Regardless, the groupthink displayed by your side in this area is based on anecdotal nonsense and/or fake news and dwarves anything from the left.

When people pushed back against the China-lab theory it was because there was literally no actual evidence behind it except that there was a bio-lab in the rough vicinity of the area the virus likely originated. The whole rumor was fed by Trump for his purposes and suited no one else.

Later, other studies suggested that maybe it was true and possibly the virus did originate in a lab. At that point, there was at least a scientific basis behind the lab theory.

That isn't group think. It was far more groupthink to get behind Trump and chant the China! China! China!

To be clear, one of the few things Trump did that was really useful is start to point out to Americans that China is not our ally. Yet listening to anti-Chinese baseless rumors from a halfwit is not something I will be accepting. That is not groupthink. I promise.

This is the same guy that says the AZ audit showed he was cheated when it showed far more mistakes made in Trump's favor. By Druff's definition, it is group think for me to deny that nonsensical bullshit. Druff, if I am wrong then please feel free to explain.

"Other studies" didn't suggest anything "later". The same information about the lab leak theory was known all along.

Even ignoring that, the topic of the lab leak theory shouldn't have been verboten and placed into conspiracy territory by the mainstream media, because it always made sense.

It began in Wuhan. Wuhan was doing gain-of-function research on exactly viruses like these. There are like 3 total facilities in the world which do this. China is known to lie to the world. This stuff was known from the start, but somehow the left-controlled mainstream media chose to ignore it... just like they ignored how Responsible Governor Cuomo was killing nursing home residents.

All of this combined should have created tremendous skepticism regarding the "wet market" excuse, but the left and their mainstream media lapdogs were so busy pushing the "orange man so racist" narrative that they refused to consider the obvious. In fact, Twitter was actually banning discussion of the matter.

Then, once Trump lost, all of a sudden we were allowed to start exploring the obvious in 2021. How nice of them.

That is indeed groupthink, and it's indicative of the entire COVID situation on the left. You aren't allowed to question "The Science", and if you do, then you are either censored or ostracized.

This is why little children are forced to wear masks OUTDOORS at school, even though outdoor transmission is far less common than indoor transmission, and kids have tremendously better outcomes than adults (even young adults). For some reason, The Science doesn't apply there, nor did it apply to the CDC's recommendation to distribute the initial vaccines based upon "racial equity" rather than age.

The Science only becomes a factor when the left wants it to be a factor, and then they chide you for not trusting them.

But what else would you expect from the party which claims that trannies totally don't have an unfair advantage in women's sports?

[Walter Sobchak]

I'd rather listen to "experts" with an agenda than someone on Facebook who didn't finish high school but yet is an expert on science and human rights issues. Most of the people around here that are anti mask anti vax are high school drop outs that work minimum wage jobs.


Druff -> You can't compare Norway/Sweden in 2020 to anything in 2021. There's new strains, people are vaccinated and lots of other variables.

What are you some kind of shill drone sheep? When you want to know science you should listen to Facebook dupe accounts, youtubers, white supremacist domestic terrorism groups and angry hate radio hosts. Anybody else could be pushing an agenda.

[dwai]

The scientific community is a victim of groupthink just like any other group. This is true. Regardless, the groupthink displayed by your side in this area is based on anecdotal nonsense and/or fake news and dwarves anything from the left.

When people pushed back against the China-lab theory it was because there was literally no actual evidence behind it except that there was a bio-lab in the rough vicinity of the area the virus likely originated. The whole rumor was fed by Trump for his purposes and suited no one else.

Later, other studies suggested that maybe it was true and possibly the virus did originate in a lab. At that point, there was at least a scientific basis behind the lab theory.

That isn't group think. It was far more groupthink to get behind Trump and chant the China! China! China!

To be clear, one of the few things Trump did that was really useful is start to point out to Americans that China is not our ally. Yet listening to anti-Chinese baseless rumors from a halfwit is not something I will be accepting. That is not groupthink. I promise.

This is the same guy that says the AZ audit showed he was cheated when it showed far more mistakes made in Trump's favor. By Druff's definition, it is group think for me to deny that nonsensical bullshit. Druff, if I am wrong then please feel free to explain.

[Dan Druff]

Druff -> You can't compare Norway/Sweden in 2020 to anything in 2021. There's new strains, people are vaccinated and lots of other variables.

Of course you can. And it's exactly because the evidence from those days is much more pure due to fewer variables (only one strain, no vaccine, etc).

We were told in mid-2020 that masks defined responsible COVID behavior.

Norway proved that was not true -- albeit unintentionally. Back then, there was only one strain and no vaccine, so there weren't any complicating factors. They didn't mask at all, and yet their outcomes were great, even in the big city. How was that possible?

At the same time, we did not see noticeable better outcomes in places with mask mandates versus those that didn't have such mandates.

If masks were/are so useful, then we would see a stark difference -- both then and now -- in COVID outcomes due to mask mandates. We don't, and never have.

That can't be ignored, and all the lab studies and scientific "consensus" doesn't supersede cold data and mathematics.

[donkdowndonedied]

"Other studies" didn't suggest anything "later". The same information about the lab leak theory was known all along.

Even ignoring that, the topic of the lab leak theory shouldn't have been verboten and placed into conspiracy territory by the mainstream media, because it always made sense.

It began in Wuhan. Wuhan was doing gain-of-function research on exactly viruses like these. There are like 3 total facilities in the world which do this. China is known to lie to the world. This stuff was known from the start, but somehow the left-controlled mainstream media chose to ignore it... just like they ignored how Responsible Governor Cuomo was killing nursing home residents.

All of this combined should have created tremendous skepticism regarding the "wet market" excuse, but the left and their mainstream media lapdogs were so busy pushing the "orange man so racist" narrative that they refused to consider the obvious. In fact, Twitter was actually banning discussion of the matter.

Then, once Trump lost, all of a sudden we were allowed to start exploring the obvious in 2021. How nice of them.

That is indeed groupthink, and it's indicative of the entire COVID situation on the left. You aren't allowed to question "The Science", and if you do, then you are either censored or ostracized.

This is why little children are forced to wear masks OUTDOORS at school, even though outdoor transmission is far less common than indoor transmission, and kids have tremendously better outcomes than adults (even young adults). For some reason, The Science doesn't apply there, nor did it apply to the CDC's recommendation to distribute the initial vaccines based upon "racial equity" rather than age.

The Science only becomes a factor when the left wants it to be a factor, and then they chide you for not trusting them.

But what else would you expect from the party which claims that trannies totally don't have an unfair advantage in women's sports?

I believe I've seen studies that have suggested the origins of the virus for both sides. I looked into it and nothing makes me doubt this but I do doubt it is worth my time to delve further into it as the level of expertise required to make a proper decision escapes the time I have available. My only point is that when Trump first made these claims, the only real basis was China China China! and there is a lab in that area. Again, it was not groupthink to ignore Trump when he is and was so often fundamentally wrong about things.

At the time debating whether China made a huge mistake (lab escaped covid) or not had no perceivable value outside of adding to the froth coming from the mouths of Trumpers. I mean history should judge and yes I want the world to know also, but that doesn't mean I'm going to jump on Trump's bandwagon. That is absurd.

You can question the science all day on the left, but just do it with logic. Science is a body of knowledge that constantly changes. These things we learn from science that guide us are not laws. Some simpletons seem to think that is how it works. I mean, if a scientist changes their mind it just shows they never knew what they were talking about to begin with! Rubbish.

Bringing tranny's into this? Oh my. really?

As I've said before, the left has no defining boundry in their beliefs. That means any goofball view will be considered liberal/leftist. That is their albatross. I can just as well come up with other idiotic things from the right. Did you know that in TX the state incentivizes vigilantism by your fellow citizens in matters that in no way directly impact them. This was very much a Republican "small government" solution to having too much freedom. Not even kidding. Look it up. The media doesn't talk about that either though.. they talk about abortion though. It cuts both ways.

[Dan Druff]

I don't care why Trump said the lab leak thing at first. Even if he just took a wild guess and turned out to be right, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that very quickly we learned about the Wuhan lab, the gain-of-function research there, and of course we already knew China's propensity to lie and cover things up.

At the very least, the lab leak theory should have been an ongoing, serious discussion. You don't have to believe it's 100% certain in order to warrant discussion of it.

But nope! Not allowed! Discussion was shut down on Twitter. The media relegated it to conspiracy territory. The "experts" all agreed that it was impossible, and that anyone who thought otherwise was a racist moron.

This defied common sense, but we were all told to believe it, because the "experts" said so, and since the rest of us aren't virology experts, we need to shut our mouths and ignore the obvious. And if we don't, Twitter will ban us.

You don't see a problem with all this?

[Walter Sobchak]

No, Wuhan peed on my rug.

[gimmick]

I don't care why Trump said the lab leak thing at first. Even if he just took a wild guess and turned out to be right, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that very quickly we learned about the Wuhan lab, the gain-of-function research there, and of course we already knew China's propensity to lie and cover things up.

At the very least, the lab leak theory should have been an ongoing, serious discussion. You don't have to believe it's 100% certain in order to warrant discussion of it.

But nope! Not allowed! Discussion was shut down on Twitter. The media relegated it to conspiracy territory. The "experts" all agreed that it was impossible, and that anyone who thought otherwise was a racist moron.

This defied common sense, but we were all told to believe it, because the "experts" said so, and since the rest of us aren't virology experts, we need to shut our mouths and ignore the obvious. And if we don't, Twitter will ban us.

You don't see a problem with all this?

Nope. There was very few public statements regarding the lab leak theory because of the sheer amount of batshit crazy conspiracy crap that came as a package deal with that "theory". But it's nice that you remember all that as reasonable suggestions regarding the origin. Clearly all mentions of bioweapons, intentional releases and bioengineering were exactly same as saying it could have escaped from a lab.

Will just leave all the motives related to control by whatever group to another discussion. Half the forum can educate you on that. I don't care enough to try to guess why, who or how.

[randomguy]

What I don't understand is why does COVID get all the attention? I personally think COVID is political/cash grab and it's hard to take it seriously when 99% of people who get it are fine. I don't understand why I am supposed to care about COVID and I should lose my job, be locked in my home, wear a mask over my face, and all for my protection? The government gives zero fucks about my protection or your protection. Why do you that believe in COVID not talk about smoking? 1300 people die everyday (more than COVID) from cigarettes but those aren't talked about. What about heart disease? Maybe there should be mandates to get fatty on a treadmill and ban all fast food?

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_sta...n%20nonsmokers.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/heart-disease.htm

Given these facts, and add to it the fact it was an election year and for the first time a non career politician was elected President and started putting the people first and you saw how desperate they were to get rid of him because they do not want a better for life for us but want to sell us out and take "donations" to get rich themselves. Most people want peace, more money, and a better life. Only the few at the top profit from those things and want to keep us their thumb. That's the problem with this two party system is that it is a classic case of divide and conquer. Split the nation in two groups and conquor them. So when COVID gets shoved in our face, you get half (it's not actually half) of the people on your side because they are on a team. I personally don't like republicans or democrats and I look at it them as politicians. The two party system is kinda fake anyway because when a Democrat gets elected, they don't ban all guns and women don't rush out to get abortions and change their gender. Those are just hot button issues used to get people upset and angry at each other instead of holding these politicians accountable. The whole system is archiac as it made sense when they rode horses and sent messages by doves but now with technology and we can communicate in an instant. We shouldn't need these do nothing politicians anymore anyway because the people should just be able to vote on the important issues. I think they have been rigging elections for years and this time they were just more blatant about it. I think it is much more secure if we voted electronically and this argument that it is more vulnerable I don't buy and actually think that they wouldn't be able to rig it if it was done electronically so that's why it hasn't been changed. You are going to tell me that Zuckerburg knows every click we make online to sell us advertisements but you can't tell me who is a real person and who they voted for once every four years?

[Dan Druff]

I don't care why Trump said the lab leak thing at first. Even if he just took a wild guess and turned out to be right, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that very quickly we learned about the Wuhan lab, the gain-of-function research there, and of course we already knew China's propensity to lie and cover things up.

At the very least, the lab leak theory should have been an ongoing, serious discussion. You don't have to believe it's 100% certain in order to warrant discussion of it.

But nope! Not allowed! Discussion was shut down on Twitter. The media relegated it to conspiracy territory. The "experts" all agreed that it was impossible, and that anyone who thought otherwise was a racist moron.

This defied common sense, but we were all told to believe it, because the "experts" said so, and since the rest of us aren't virology experts, we need to shut our mouths and ignore the obvious. And if we don't, Twitter will ban us.

You don't see a problem with all this?

Nope. There was very few public statements regarding the lab leak theory because of the sheer amount of batshit crazy conspiracy crap that came as a package deal with that "theory". But it's nice that you remember all that as reasonable suggestions regarding the origin. Clearly all mentions of bioweapons, intentional releases and bioengineering were exactly same as saying it could have escaped from a lab.

Will just leave all the motives related to control by whatever group to another discussion. Half the forum can educate you on that. I don't care enough to try to guess why, who or how.

"Package deal"? What?

So because a few idiots added conspiracies onto the lab leak theory, the entire (reasonable) theory itself had to be banned from discussion in both the media and Twitter?

Makes loads of sense.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with a political motive to beat Trump, right? Just a total coincidence that it was an okay discussion topic once Trump lost.

[donkdowndonedied]

I don't care why Trump said the lab leak thing at first. Even if he just took a wild guess and turned out to be right, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that very quickly we learned about the Wuhan lab, the gain-of-function research there, and of course we already knew China's propensity to lie and cover things up.

At the very least, the lab leak theory should have been an ongoing, serious discussion. You don't have to believe it's 100% certain in order to warrant discussion of it.

But nope! Not allowed! Discussion was shut down on Twitter. The media relegated it to conspiracy territory. The "experts" all agreed that it was impossible, and that anyone who thought otherwise was a racist moron.

This defied common sense, but we were all told to believe it, because the "experts" said so, and since the rest of us aren't virology experts, we need to shut our mouths and ignore the obvious. And if we don't, Twitter will ban us.

You don't see a problem with all this?

I see a problem with many parts of it. I'd like to see where respected media was saying it was impossible that it came from a lab. You quote "experts" saying it was impossible. Well, can you show me any links where they were that strong in their conviction using words like "impossible"? I suspect your memory of this is largely manufactured.

The problem here is that there is a nexus of many issues. A lot of nationalism bullshit that will prevent a lot of serious discussion and the "discussion" would be largely relegated to a few data points shared by everyone.

Twitter made a mistake, yes. It is one private company.

You love to take one example and extrapolate it. It is unfortunate that twitter wields so much power, but they're not "the media".

I agree that the media buried discussion of the subject early on, but I really don't think there was that much to discuss. You pretty much laid out all the data points we had at that point in your post. There is not going to be a serious dialogue arising from that. So you're right in that it was wrong that it was censored, but meh it isn't like some lifelong conspiracy to keep people in the dark. All the discussions would have been more or less meaningless at the time except to froth up Trump's supporters. That is still true.

[gimmick]

How is Wuhan Lab/Bioweapon a "conspiracy"?

That's pretty much what really happened.

^From January this year. Still crickets about that bioweapon part. There's few more posts from last year how it's engineered. If only we had another flu variant that had killed millions in few years, we could a have a better guess how necessary it was to engineer Covid-19.

"few idiots added conspiracies onto the lab leak theory"- Dan Druff in September