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Thread: Luka hates Haralabob

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly View Post
    https://theathletic.com/2649806/2021...h-luka-doncic/

    Tldr: Cuban loves Bob and his analytics, therefore Bob has tons of power. Not everyone else loves that, including Luka.

     
    Inside the Mavericks front office, Mark Cuban's shadow GM is causing a rift with Luka Doncic
    In early February, during the second quarter of a home game against the Golden State Warriors, Luka Doncic carelessly turned over the ball and received feedback from a Dallas Mavericks employee he didn’t care for: Haralabos Voulgaris, a well-known sports gambler hired by team owner Mark Cuban in 2018.

    Voulgaris, sitting with an open laptop in his typical courtside seat across from the Mavericks’ bench, motioned downward with his hands, which Doncic specifically interpreted as Voulgaris telling him to calm down, multiple team and league sources tell The Athletic. Doncic snapped back, telling Voulgaris, according to one source’s recollection, “Don’t fucking tell me to calm down.” The same sources say Voulgaris later professed that his motion wasn’t solely directed at Doncic, but regardless of intent, it only worsened an already inflamed relationship between the two.

    Doncic, multiple league sources say, intends to sign the supermax extension — which he will be eligible for once named to this season’s All-NBA team — with Dallas, worth more than $200 million over five seasons after his rookie contract expires next summer. “I think you know the answer,” he said, smiling, when asked whether he would at last week’s exit interview. But a high-level power broker within the league says the Mavericks recognize that there’s urgency to build a contending team around Doncic after losing in the first round in each of the past two seasons. The clock is ticking.

    Internally, there are concerns the front office’s dysfunction has hurt its ability to do so — and that poor relationships Doncic has with key members of the franchise, including Voulgaris, could impact his current desire to remain in Dallas long-term. The team’s most recent postseason defeat against the LA Clippers served as a direct indictment on the roster constructed around him. Can Mavericks management remedy that in time? Or, as some team sources fear, will they pay the price for the dysfunctional dynamics that exist in some corners of the organization?

    Dallas announced Voulgaris’ hiring in the fall of 2018 with a title — director of quantitative research and development — that vastly understated his actual role. Multiple league and team sources tell The Athletic that Voulgaris has been the most influential voice within the Mavericks front office since joining the team, either initiating or approving virtually every transaction made over the past two seasons. Those same sources add that Voulgaris has frequently gone as far as scripting the starting lineups and rotations for longtime head coach Rick Carlisle.

    That influence has spanned Doncic’s three seasons in Dallas. While he had been drafted prior to Voulgaris’ arrival — Donnie Nelson, the team’s longtime president of basketball operations, was the driving force behind trading up to acquire the Slovenian wunderkind, a process he described in detail to The Athletic last year — Cuban had sought out Voulgaris’ basketball advice in the years before putting him on the team’s payroll. As one team source says, “Mark Cuban is the most powerful person in the organization, but whoever he’s listening to is second.” Cuban was won over by Voulgaris’ vision: an analytics-driven spread pick-and-roll offense with Doncic as the focal point which he has tried implementing in the past seasons.

    It’s unclear when the Cuban and Voulgaris relationship began, but their coming together is perhaps unsurprising given Cuban’s origin as a self-made tech billionaire whose first major purchase was the Mavericks. Voulgaris has never been shy about his desire to run a team. In an ESPN feature from 2013, Voulgaris is quoted as saying, “The whole process (of becoming a highly successful gambler) has led me to believe that I’d be able to put together a better team than almost any general manager in the league. If not maybe all.”

    The way Voulgaris tells it — the ESPN feature is the only notable reporting ever focused on him, and he declined an interview request from The Athletic shortly after being hired — he began gambling on the NBA in the late 1990s and had made millions by the early 2000s. His success, he says, came in part from an instinctual reading of certain coaches. It finally failed him during the 2003-04 season, causing him to lose much of his gambling wealth and step away temporarily, only returning once he’d developed an analytics model that brought back his old edge. He says he did exactly that, his new model beating the odds at a rate higher than five percent. In 2009, he gave up gambling again to consult for an unnamed NBA franchise. The advisory role lasted one season; he returned to his previous life afterward and began publicly promoting himself. In the coming years, he became a well-known presence in the basketball world.

    Voulgaris spent a limited amount of time around the Mavericks during his first season of employment, attending about one-quarter of the team’s games. He attended fewer games the following season, but his imprint on the team’s roster grew substantially that offseason. It was Voulgaris who initiated the team’s acquisitions of Seth Curry and Delon Wright, with multiple sources telling The Athletic that Voulgaris believed Wright should start next to Doncic. “He was the only person that believed that,” one team source says. Wright did start the season opener before being moved to a full-time bench role the following game, barely playing in the team’s first-round defeat in the 2020 postseason. He was traded that offseason.

    Because Voulgaris’ influence was greater than his official role, those within the front office — and executives around the league who interacted with them — were often confused about who actually held power. “We had two general managers,” a team source says. Nelson remained the team’s president of basketball operations, a role he has held since 2005, and other executives and agents continued largely communicating with him or Cuban regarding personnel matters. Nelson continued to spearhead major moves, including trades for Kristaps Porzingis and Tim Hardaway Jr. in 2019, Josh Richardson in 2020 and J.J. Redick in 2021. But team sources say Voulgaris was supportive of the transactions — or explicitly approved them.

    Multiple league and team sources point to the 2020 draft as a particularly egregious example of Voulgaris’ power, an evening one source described as “embarrassing.” Most members of the scouting department joined the team’s war room remotely through Zoom and were surprised when Voulgaris, attending in person, didn’t consult them for either of the team’s first two selections (Josh Green and Tyrell Terry) despite disagreements they held with at least one of the players he picked.

    “What did (he) sell to Mark to make him believe (he) can do this?” asks one source with an intimate knowledge of the situation. “Nobody knows.”

    It marked another throughline of Voulgaris’ tenure with the Mavericks: that his personality and decision making has steadily irritated and exasperated the team’s front office employees and players over the course of the three seasons he’s been employed. “He doesn’t know how to talk to people,” that same source says.

    That’s best exemplified by Dallas’ franchise player disliking him. Doncic’s strained relationship with Voulgaris predated their incident in February, multiple sources say. It wasn’t the only incident, either. This season, Voulgaris attended his first game in mid January, frequently appearing courtside at home and also traveling with them on the road in the months that followed. In mid-April, during the final minute of a home defeat to the New York Knicks, Voulgaris was seen on the game’s broadcast footage standing up and leaving with about 45 seconds remaining. While the Mavericks were trailing by 10 points at the time, they cut the deficit to six and extended the game seven more possessions before eventually losing.


    Doncic noticed Voulgaris’ early departure. In the locker room after the game, multiple league and team sources say he told teammates he viewed Voulgaris leaving before the game’s conclusion as him quitting on them. Voulgaris would not attend another game the rest of the year.

    Multiple team sources confirm Voulgaris remained involved in the team’s gameplans and in-game adjustments in a remote role. But Voulgaris, who earlier this season appeared likelier than not to wrest further control over the front office and perhaps even drive out Nelson entirely, now heads into a summer with his contract set to expire and uncertainty surrounding his future.

    When reached for comment on Monday, Cuban defended Voulgaris’ involvement. “I really like what Bob brings to the table. He does a great job of supporting Rick and the front office with unique data insights.”

    Cuban added: “Bob has a great grasp of AI and the opportunities it creates for gaining an advantage. Which is important to me. But he isn’t any more influential than any other data source on the team.”

    Voulgaris declined to comment for this story when reached on Sunday.

    Doncic’s relationship with his head coach, Rick Carlisle, has been publicly scrutinized since joining his team. It’s expected Carlisle will return next season, multiple league sources say, something Cuban publicly voiced support for last week shortly after the first round defeat.

    “Let me tell you how I look at coaching,” he told ESPN. “You don’t make a change to make a change. Unless you have someone that you know is much, much, much better, the grass is rarely greener on the other side.”

    Multiple sources were surprised to see Cuban’s prompt backing of Carlisle, however, even though Cuban’s support for Carlisle has hardly wavered over the past decade. During the season, it was believed Carlisle’s future could be reconsidered following the season, partly due to a belief Doncic had tuned him out.

    “It was very much up in the air,” one source with intimate knowledge of the situation said.

    Sources say some players have been frustrated with Carlisle after they lost playing time despite doing exactly what they felt he had asked of them, and for stiff rotation patterns, the latter of which they viewed — correctly, team sources confirm — as being dictated directly to him by Voulgaris. Early on, Doncic also disliked Carlisle’s timeouts and frequent calling of plays.

    But Carlisle, who’s “adaptable as a motherfucker,” as one league source put it, began to modify his coaching style as a way of relieving some of the pressure from this sensitive situation. Beyond Carlisle’s obvious coaching acumen, he has always been able and willing to, in essence, read the room when it came to which personal battles he could win and which ones he couldn’t. This was no different.


    Doncic’s greatness, so evident so early on, clearly compelled Carlisle to consider the changing hoops politics at hand. Since being hired in May of 2008, Carlisle has had his fair share of friction with key players, in large part because of his well-known tendency to be controlling. But Rajon Rondo, this was not.

    In truth, it was far closer to the difficult dynamic that he’d successfully navigated with then-point guard Jason Kidd en route to winning the franchise’s first and only title in 2011. It took an intervention of sorts to get through that friction back then, when then-Mavericks assistant coaches Tim Grgurich, Dwane Casey and Terry Stotts stepped in to tell Carlisle that he needed to loosen the reins on Kidd. In the end, of course, it was a wise and necessary move.

    The championship took Carlisle’s credibility to another level in those coming years. He was, with good reason, virtually untouchable when it came to the job insecurities that most coaches face. Such is life when you reach the NBA’s mountaintop for a franchise that has never been there before.

    But as Doncic started to look more and more like a modern-day Dirk Nowitzki these past three seasons — the kind of once-in-a-generation player who the Mavericks could build around for the next two decades — the landscape that surrounded Carlisle began to change. And Carlisle, quite clearly, decided to change along with it.

    “You can’t win against the next Nowitzki,” one source said.

    Doncic has a healthy relationship with the Mavericks organization at large. League sources say he angled to be drafted by the team in 2018, and he has been particularly complimentary of his relationship with Nowitzki, whose final season coincided with Doncic’s first. Those feelings could change if the team’s postseason struggles continue, as the Mavericks haven’t advanced past the first round since their 2011 championship run. It’s not that Doncic’s situation with the team is at a critical inflection point right now. Multiple team sources simply fear that it’s heading that direction.

    Those concerns mostly center on Cuban and the decisions he makes regarding who he trusts and imbues with power. Sometimes, it’s examples like Voulgaris, a sports gambler with no league experience being given near total control of the team’s roster. Other times, it’s the relationships he doesn’t sever: The Mavericks’ front office has come to be known around the league for its long-existing power structure that, Voulgaris aside, has barely changed.

    Doncic has provided the Mavericks a chance to return to prominence. He’s a generational star the team was fortunate to draft, seamlessly taking the mantle from the franchise player before him. But after beginning another offseason sooner than hoped for, the focus falls upon the organization around him: on how the dynamic that existed over the past seasons was allowed to operate in such a haphazard manner, and whether it can be fixed before it’s too late.

    1. Cuban/Volg Married by Proxy to one another.
    2. Lovers.
    3. no 3rd choice.

  2. #62
    All Sorts of Sports gut's Avatar
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    Listened this morning. He was a bit more calculated and neutral in his responses as opposed to pre-Mavs job, even though BS was trying to prod him towards "hot takes". I wonder if he actually is angling for another NBA job at some point.

    Or perhaps it's just a few years of working in the office environment still affecting him, although of all teams, I can't picture Cuban's Mavs as being a tight and stuffy professional office.
    Last edited by gut; 11-25-2021 at 11:09 AM.

  3. #63
    All Sorts of Sports gut's Avatar
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    I did laugh at him explaining how "someone" (read: Donnie Nelson) in the FO didn't understand his flowchart for ideal playoff positioning.

  4. #64
    Haralobob will always have a special place in my wagering heart.

    Haralobob humiliating VP Matt Holt of Cantor Gamimg on stage at the MIT Sloan Analytics Conference in 2013 is when he became a god in my eyes.

    Generally, Bob’s position at the time was that bookmakers are clueless when it comes to business operations. They always get 11:10 or 4.5% any idiot should make money without shading the public or cutting them off.

    2013 is now the stone age of sports wagering. I had less than any clue myself but this served to help form a good foundation. It’s hard to tell now but I still think it holds up as an intro.

    Football is too random “the ball isn’t round, it bounces this way and that” is just legend. “Baseball is a pure game in terms of analytics.” The passage of basketball from a good game to not so good. Haralobob was just good parenting at the time

    I think Haralobob destroyed Matt Holt’s career that day.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Haralobob will always have a special place in my wagering heart.

    Haralobob humiliating VP Matt Holt of Cantor Gamimg on stage at the MIT Sloan Analytics Conference in 2013 is when he became a god in my eyes.

    Generally, Bob’s position at the time was that bookmakers are clueless when it comes to business operations. They always get 11:10 or 4.5% any idiot should make money without shading the public or cutting them off.

    2013 is now the stone age of sports wagering. I had less than any clue myself but this served to help form a good foundation. It’s hard to tell now but I still think it holds up as an intro.

    Football is too random “the ball isn’t round, it bounces this way and that” is just legend. “Baseball is a pure game in terms of analytics.” The passage of basketball from a good game to not so good. Haralobob was just good parenting at the time

    I think Haralobob destroyed Matt Holt’s career that day.
    By his account he has a successful business doing sports betting integrity consulting (link below). He used to regularly go onto RJ Bells Dream Preview (a podcast I listen to religiously) and talk about industry stuff, but he stopped last year, presumably because his business had built up to the point he no longer had time. Dislcaimer: this is all according to him and RJ, so I can't verify how true it is.

    https://www.usintegrity.com

  6. #66
    Client list?

  7. #67
    Finished the pod. Was good (most of Bill's pods with Haralabob are). Bob seems more measured in his criticism than before. My gut is the reason is he has personal relationships with the people he is talking about, and when that happens generally you are less likely to be highly critical, even if it is someone you don't necessarily like.

    At the end Simmons teased that he wants Haralabob to come back on and talk about Crypto, and Haralabob seemed open to the idea.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Client list?
    You know as much as I do. I have never even gone on his company's website, I just know it exists.

    FWIW, he never pimped his company when he went on the Dream Preview, which in fairness probably makes sense from a business perspective as you dont want a sports betting integrity service associated too strongly with someone who runs a tout business.

    But yeah, it could be a highly sucessful business, or could be a total bust. I don't have a clue.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    Listened this morning. He was a bit more calculated and neutral in his responses as opposed to pre-Mavs job, even though BS was trying to prod him towards "hot takes". I wonder if he actually is angling for another NBA job at some point.

    Or perhaps it's just a few years of working in the office environment still affecting him, although of all teams, I can't picture Cuban's Mavs as being a tight and stuffy professional office.
    Yes, he's definitely learned how to be more diplomatic. Even balanced out his Lakers criticism somewhat.
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  10. #70
    Haralobos is what every gambler aspires to be. Love the guy- that interview was gold despite Bill Simmons irritating drivel.

    What poker show did Haralobos used to chime in on from time to time- was it Pokerroad radio? He told a funny story about Chino Reem I remember where he flipped a flag to Chino by mistake and Chino just took the overpayment and vanished.

    I also remember him saying the Grizzlies were a good basketball team and I had a great 30-1 sweat all year as they made it to the finals and were up 2-1 on the Warriors (to lose 4-2).

    Very interesting, funny guy.

     
    Comments
      
      thesidedish: I had warriors 30/1, I AM GOD

  11. #71
    Finally got to listen. Entertaining as always. Definitely in the camp he might want another NBA gig, or at least not to burn his bridges. Certainly more measured.

    Clearly hates Donnie Nelson. That comes through.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    Finally got to listen. Entertaining as always. Definitely in the camp he might want another NBA gig, or at least not to burn his bridges. Certainly more measured.

    Clearly hates Donnie Nelson. That comes through.
    By all accounts he got into Crypto early and heavy, so he could possibly have a net worth in the 8-9 digit range. At some point you are just too successful to jump back in at the bottom of a different industry (even if it is a passion) for a second go around. I just dont see it.

    Also, although he didn't say anything we already didn't know about Luka's diet and conditioning, just the fact he said it probably disqualifies him from getting another NBA job. If you are the assistant GM quant guy (or whatever), that is a line you just dont cross I imagine.
    Last edited by Kalam; 11-26-2021 at 07:05 PM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    Finally got to listen. Entertaining as always. Definitely in the camp he might want another NBA gig, or at least not to burn his bridges. Certainly more measured.

    Clearly hates Donnie Nelson. That comes through.
    By all accounts he got into Crypto early and heavy, so he could possibly have a net worth in the 8-9 digit range. At some point you are just too successful to jump back in at the bottom of a different industry (even if it is a passion) for a second go around. I just dont see it.

    Also, although he didn't say anything we already didn't know about Luka's diet and conditioning, just the fact he said it probably disqualifies him from getting another NBA job. If you are the assistant GM quant guy (or whatever), that is a line you just dont cross I imagine.
    Idk, I assume he lost money to take the job last time. He certainly wouldn’t take some low level job, and he kind of already burnt through the one forward thinking owner, but it wouldn’t shock me to see crypto dudes own a team within 5 years, and I have to think he’d be their GM short list. I didn’t find anything he said about Luka disparaging. Clearly he isn’t very fit. I didn't view his comments as out of line.

    Simmons tried to get him to go that way, but he called him a generational player who comes along every fifteen to twenty five years.

    Assuming he’s not completely full of shit, and has made hundreds of millions in sports betting and more in crypto, he had to be extraordinarily wealthy before he took the last job.

    To hear him talk now, he doesn’t bet basketball, yet he had commentary on every rookie in the league. It’s clearly a passion for him. Being considered a great basketball mind is obviously important to him. He has a serious ego. If he had a chance to demonstrate that in the future, I don’t doubt he would. Gambling is getting so mainstream, he won’t be some controversial hire in five years.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalam View Post

    By all accounts he got into Crypto early and heavy, so he could possibly have a net worth in the 8-9 digit range. At some point you are just too successful to jump back in at the bottom of a different industry (even if it is a passion) for a second go around. I just dont see it.

    Also, although he didn't say anything we already didn't know about Luka's diet and conditioning, just the fact he said it probably disqualifies him from getting another NBA job. If you are the assistant GM quant guy (or whatever), that is a line you just dont cross I imagine.
    Idk, I assume he lost money to take the job last time. He certainly wouldn’t take some low level job, and he kind of already burnt through the one forward thinking owner, but it wouldn’t shock me to see crypto dudes own a team within 5 years, and I have to think he’d be their GM short list. I didn’t find anything he said about Luka disparaging. Clearly he isn’t very fit. I didn't view his comments as out of line.

    Simmons tried to get him to go that way, but he called him a generational player who comes along every fifteen to twenty five years.

    Assuming he’s not completely full of shit, and has made hundreds of millions in sports betting and more in crypto, he had to be extraordinarily wealthy before he took the last job.

    To hear him talk now, he doesn’t bet basketball, yet he had commentary on every rookie in the league. It’s clearly a passion for him. Being considered a great basketball mind is obviously important to him. He has a serious ego. If he had a chance to demonstrate that in the future, I don’t doubt he would. Gambling is getting so mainstream, he won’t be some controversial hire in five years.
    Fair enough. Didn't even think of that. Why couldn't 5 crypto billionaires join together and buy the Pelicans, relocate them, and he could get back in the NBA that way (possibly with an ownership stake).

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