Florida bans teaching Critical Race Theory in its schools

[Walter Sobchak]

You should get a failing grade if you think legalized discrimination ended in the 60s. I'm sure that's what they thought in 80s when you were at school, but that simply wasn't true.

Oh, leftists like you still believe massive systemic "discrimination" occurs today in the US, and I dont think those claims will ever end, regardless of what changes are made.

However, the '60s civil rights movement ended the clear, race-based discrimination which could be accurately described as systemic racism.

I'm sure you're referring to things such as redlining, which while controversial, are done with economic motivations and not racial discrimination. If I'm the CEO of a supermarket chain and choose not to open a store in a low-income neighborhood where profits will be lower and crime will be higher, that's not a racist decision, even if it ends up ultimately making it more difficult for certain black neighborhoods to get groceries.

But that's a different discussion for a different time.

The bottom line is that, regardless of anyone's opinion of whether systemic racism still exists in the US, it shouldn't be taught in school as one-sided fact. You simply can't teach "The US is systemically racist in 2021" the same way you teach "Slavery in the 1800s was wrong" and "Racial segregation laws in the 1960s were wrong". The latter is obvious and well established in modern society, while the former is highly controversial.

Great, so if it's highly controversial then have a discussion about it. That's what school is for. Learning how to think critically and approach an issue from various sides. The people trying to ban this do not want it taught at all. You don't want "the US is systemically racist in 2021" taught as fact but what is happening here is people want to ban it from being taught at all, or teaching that the opposite is true, which is equally incorrect and equally wrong to teach as "fact."

[nightmarefish]

Oh, leftists like you still believe massive systemic "discrimination" occurs today in the US, and I dont think those claims will ever end, regardless of what changes are made.

However, the '60s civil rights movement ended the clear, race-based discrimination which could be accurately described as systemic racism.

I'm sure you're referring to things such as redlining, which while controversial, are done with economic motivations and not racial discrimination. If I'm the CEO of a supermarket chain and choose not to open a store in a low-income neighborhood where profits will be lower and crime will be higher, that's not a racist decision, even if it ends up ultimately making it more difficult for certain black neighborhoods to get groceries.

But that's a different discussion for a different time.

The bottom line is that, regardless of anyone's opinion of whether systemic racism still exists in the US, it shouldn't be taught in school as one-sided fact. You simply can't teach "The US is systemically racist in 2021" the same way you teach "Slavery in the 1800s was wrong" and "Racial segregation laws in the 1960s were wrong". The latter is obvious and well established in modern society, while the former is highly controversial.

Great, so if it's highly controversial then have a discussion about it. That's what school is for. Learning how to think critically and approach an issue from various sides. The people trying to ban this do not want it taught at all. You don't want "the US is systemically racist in 2021" taught as fact but what is happening here is people want to ban it from being taught at all, or teaching that the opposite is true, which is equally incorrect and equally wrong to teach as "fact."

Walter, do you have kids? Do you support teaching CRT to kids? What benefit do you think it brings?

I would argue it brings far more harm than good and most of the harm is actually to the black kids. Teaching black kids that they're looked at as inferior in this country, the system is setup by white people for black people to fail and that they don't have much of a chance to succeed sets them up for failure. If you polled middle class black parents, I'd be willing to bet they don't want this shit taught to their kids. Successful parents raise their kids with the idea that they can be whatever they want to be and the parents support them any way they can to reach their goals. Why the hell would any parent raise their kid with the idea that the deck is stacked against them and it's almost impossible to succeed? Also, how will these black kids not grow up hating white people when they're taught white people are actively holding them down? How is the premise not divisive?

The entire idea handicaps black kids for life.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1411882228423041024

[Walter Sobchak]

Great, so if it's highly controversial then have a discussion about it. That's what school is for. Learning how to think critically and approach an issue from various sides. The people trying to ban this do not want it taught at all. You don't want "the US is systemically racist in 2021" taught as fact but what is happening here is people want to ban it from being taught at all, or teaching that the opposite is true, which is equally incorrect and equally wrong to teach as "fact."

Walter, do you have kids? Do you support teaching CRT to kids? What benefit do you think it brings?

I would argue it brings far more harm than good and most of the harm is actually to the black kids. Teaching black kids that they're looked at as inferior in this country, the system is setup by white people for black people to fail and that they don't have much of a chance to succeed sets them up for failure. If you polled middle class black parents, I'd be willing to bet they don't want this shit taught to their kids. Successful parents raise their kids with the idea that they can be whatever they want to be and the parents support them any way they can to reach their goals. Why the hell would any parent raise their kid with the idea that the deck is stacked against them and it's almost impossible to succeed? Also, how will these black kids not grow up hating white people when they're taught white people are actively holding them down? How is the premise not divisive?

The entire idea handicaps black kids for life.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1411882228423041024

When it comes to social theories, I don't want any of them taught as fact. I want a wide range of ideas to be explored and debated.

Facts are facts, theories are theories. Banning a theory, teaching as a fact that a particular theory is definitely wrong, is just as dangerous as teaching that it is definitely correct.

[v12cl]

Walter, do you have kids? Do you support teaching CRT to kids? What benefit do you think it brings?

I would argue it brings far more harm than good and most of the harm is actually to the black kids. Teaching black kids that they're looked at as inferior in this country, the system is setup by white people for black people to fail and that they don't have much of a chance to succeed sets them up for failure. If you polled middle class black parents, I'd be willing to bet they don't want this shit taught to their kids. Successful parents raise their kids with the idea that they can be whatever they want to be and the parents support them any way they can to reach their goals. Why the hell would any parent raise their kid with the idea that the deck is stacked against them and it's almost impossible to succeed? Also, how will these black kids not grow up hating white people when they're taught white people are actively holding them down? How is the premise not divisive?

The entire idea handicaps black kids for life.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1411882228423041024

When it comes to social theories, I don't want any of them taught as fact. I want a wide range of ideas to be explored and debated.

Facts are facts, theories are theories. Banning a theory, teaching as a fact that a particular theory is definitely wrong, is just as dangerous as teaching that it is definitely correct.

Banning it is stupid, especially when woke districts and teachers will teach it anyway. But they aren't so much "teaching it," as they are practicing it in real time.

CRT has reached an almost cult status, some weird sort of secular evangelism, and the most fervent proponents are major bullies who refuse to debate, and are willing to use whatever power they have to push their crazy, racist theories.

You don't need to pass new anti-speech legislation to fight CRT, you just need to use existing laws that prohibit treating people differently based on their skin color.

Wouldn't that be something - Equal application of, and protection, under the law? Dems don't seem to want that anymore, and the ones that do, are too scared to say anything.

[limitles]

When it comes to social theories, I don't want any of them taught as fact. I want a wide range of ideas to be explored and debated.

Facts are facts, theories are theories. Banning a theory, teaching as a fact that a particular theory is definitely wrong, is just as dangerous as teaching that it is definitely correct.

Banning it is stupid, especially when woke districts and teachers will teach it anyway. But they aren't so much "teaching it," as they are practicing it in real time.

CRT has reached an almost cult status, some weird sort of secular evangelism, and the most fervent proponents are major bullies who refuse to debate, and are willing to use whatever power they have to push their crazy, racist theories.

You don't need to pass new anti-speech legislation to fight CRT, you just need to use existing laws that prohibit treating people differently based on their skin color.

Wouldn't that be something - Equal application of, and protection, under the law? Dems don't seem to want that anymore, and the ones that do, are too scared to say anything.

The people who who were affected by your little racial experiment, including relatives, no longer keep it to themselves. Everything thing is on the table. Populations evolve and they will be heard. Protecting little Buford from facts will have no effect on the yout of today. You racists are fucked.

[Walter Sobchak]

When it comes to social theories, I don't want any of them taught as fact. I want a wide range of ideas to be explored and debated.

Facts are facts, theories are theories. Banning a theory, teaching as a fact that a particular theory is definitely wrong, is just as dangerous as teaching that it is definitely correct.

Banning it is stupid, especially when woke districts and teachers will teach it anyway. But they aren't so much "teaching it," as they are practicing it in real time.

CRT has reached an almost cult status, some weird sort of secular evangelism, and the most fervent proponents are major bullies who refuse to debate, and are willing to use whatever power they have to push their crazy, racist theories.

You don't need to pass new anti-speech legislation to fight CRT, you just need to use existing laws that prohibit treating people differently based on their skin color.

Wouldn't that be something - Equal application of, and protection, under the law? Dems don't seem to want that anymore, and the ones that do, are too scared to say anything.

I want equal application of and protection under the law, and I’m not afraid to say so. Speaking of education, it’s sad that so many people do not understand this.

[MumblesBadly]

Great, so if it's highly controversial then have a discussion about it. That's what school is for. Learning how to think critically and approach an issue from various sides. The people trying to ban this do not want it taught at all. You don't want "the US is systemically racist in 2021" taught as fact but what is happening here is people want to ban it from being taught at all, or teaching that the opposite is true, which is equally incorrect and equally wrong to teach as "fact."

Walter, do you have kids? Do you support teaching CRT to kids? What benefit do you think it brings?

I would argue it brings far more harm than good and most of the harm is actually to the black kids. Teaching black kids that they're looked at as inferior in this country, the system is setup by white people for black people to fail and that they don't have much of a chance to succeed sets them up for failure. If you polled middle class black parents, I'd be willing to bet they don't want this shit taught to their kids. Successful parents raise their kids with the idea that they can be whatever they want to be and the parents support them any way they can to reach their goals. Why the hell would any parent raise their kid with the idea that the deck is stacked against them and it's almost impossible to succeed? Also, how will these black kids not grow up hating white people when they're taught white people are actively holding them down? How is the premise not divisive?

The entire idea handicaps black kids for life.

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1411882228423041024

I’m going to blow Druff’s mind here: I agree with what the two guys featured in these video clips are saying: Kids should not be taught the tenets behind Critical Race Theory as if it were factual, and that appears to be happening at certain K-12 schools. And that is happening because some super-woke educators who “believe” the more polarizing tenets that serve as bases for CRT are teaching them to kids as if they were factually true, and that is definitely wrong to do. Because doing so intellectually, as far as CRT is concerned, puts the cart before the horse.

How so? Because CRT is a kind of intellectual lens for legal scholars to examine the merits of laws and government policies as if those tenets were true. And merely teaching those tenets to children as if they were true has as much intellectual rigor as teaching them that “God loves you X amount depending upon your race”, with X being lower the darker your skin tone, but with that added proviso that children should take action to compensate for God’s racially-determined levels of his love for people.

Why? Because children usually don’t have the emotional nor intellectual capability to distinguish between what a complex history of racial attitudes among people, as well as the evolving body of law and policy in our culture and society, might have had on the man-made contributions to racial inequities in our society, and what a supernatural-and-eternally-incomprehensible deity is responsible for. For them, those two hypothesized progenitors of racial inequality are essentially the same. And thus, they would essentially be being taught the religion of “CRT” without understanding why it is not supposed to be a religion.

[Dan Druff]

Oh, leftists like you still believe massive systemic "discrimination" occurs today in the US, and I dont think those claims will ever end, regardless of what changes are made.

However, the '60s civil rights movement ended the clear, race-based discrimination which could be accurately described as systemic racism.

I'm sure you're referring to things such as redlining, which while controversial, are done with economic motivations and not racial discrimination. If I'm the CEO of a supermarket chain and choose not to open a store in a low-income neighborhood where profits will be lower and crime will be higher, that's not a racist decision, even if it ends up ultimately making it more difficult for certain black neighborhoods to get groceries.

But that's a different discussion for a different time.

The bottom line is that, regardless of anyone's opinion of whether systemic racism still exists in the US, it shouldn't be taught in school as one-sided fact. You simply can't teach "The US is systemically racist in 2021" the same way you teach "Slavery in the 1800s was wrong" and "Racial segregation laws in the 1960s were wrong". The latter is obvious and well established in modern society, while the former is highly controversial.

Great, so if it's highly controversial then have a discussion about it. That's what school is for. Learning how to think critically and approach an issue from various sides. The people trying to ban this do not want it taught at all. You don't want "the US is systemically racist in 2021" taught as fact but what is happening here is people want to ban it from being taught at all, or teaching that the opposite is true, which is equally incorrect and equally wrong to teach as "fact."

Conservatives aren't complaining about "teaching" CRT.

They are complaining that CRT is being taught as fact, without the other side being presented. In the rare case the other side is presented, it's framed as evil white conservatives wanting to preseve the systemically racist structure in the US.

That's the problem with allowing modern controversial political theory to be taught in the schools. Rarely will you get a neutral teacher who fairly explains both sides. In fact, I've found many liberals/leftists (including smart/educated ones) don't even understand conservative thought, honestly believing it's rooted in racism and keeping white power structures intact. Since this is impossible to monitor on a teacher-by-teacher basis (even within a single school), it's better to keep such lessons out of public schools altogether.

[Walter Sobchak]

Great, so if it's highly controversial then have a discussion about it. That's what school is for. Learning how to think critically and approach an issue from various sides. The people trying to ban this do not want it taught at all. You don't want "the US is systemically racist in 2021" taught as fact but what is happening here is people want to ban it from being taught at all, or teaching that the opposite is true, which is equally incorrect and equally wrong to teach as "fact."

Conservatives aren't complaining about "teaching" CRT.

They are complaining that CRT is being taught as fact, without the other side being presented. In the rare case the other side is presented, it's framed as evil white conservatives wanting to preseve the systemically racist structure in the US.

That's the problem with allowing modern controversial political theory to be taught in the schools. Rarely will you get a neutral teacher who fairly explains both sides. In fact, I've found many liberals/leftists (including smart/educated ones) don't even understand conservative thought, honestly believing it's rooted in racism and keeping white power structures intact. Since this is impossible to monitor on a teacher-by-teacher basis (even within a single school), it's better to keep such lessons out of public schools altogether.

That may not be what you're complaining about, but the law actually bans teaching CRT at all because it "distorts" historical events. In other words, their chosen interpretation of history is correct, and teaching something that disagrees is not allowed.

https://apnews.com/article/florida-r...fa3ee9955b0a8d

Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis appeared by video at the top of the board’s meeting, urging its members, many of whom he appointed, to adopt the new measures he asserted would serve students with the facts rather than “trying to indoctrinate them with ideology.”

In other words what he thinks is the truth shall be taught as the truth, and anything else is "indoctrinating them with ideology."

If you want to teach any kind of history or social studies in school, you will run into controversy and differing interpretations of events. Students have to be taught to deal with different theories and think critically about all of them. It's impossible to "keep this out of public schools" unless you want to get rid of social sciences altogether. That includes literature. There is no need to "monitor on a teach-by-teacher basis." This isn't China.

[Dan Druff]

Walter, you're overcomplicating this.

When I was in 1980s high school, we were taught about slavery, racism, the '60s civil rights movement, and all of that stuff. However, what was left out of the curriculum was any comment about then-modern America.

Upon exiting high school in 1990, I had no idea whether or not then-present society was systemically racist. That was for me to learn on my own as an adult, and come to my own conclusions. I knew what the country had done wrong in the past, and the actions taken to correct those wrongs. The "wrongs" taught to me were not at all controversial -- simply that slavery and segregation were highly immoral.

It is a huge leap from there to teach that present-day America is systemicaly racist, especially when this isn't widely accepted by the population, and is incredibly controversial.

If this could be taught in such a way where both sides of the argument are equally presented and the students are allowed to make up their minds, I'd be okay with it, but this is obviously impossible to assure or monitor. As you said, this isn't China. Therefore, the safest play is simply to keep all controversial political propaganda out of public schools.

[Walter Sobchak]

Walter, you're overcomplicating this.

When I was in 1980s high school, we were taught about slavery, racism, the '60s civil rights movement, and all of that stuff. However, what was left out of the curriculum was any comment about then-modern America.

Upon exiting high school in 1990, I had no idea whether or not then-present society was systemically racist. That was for me to learn on my own as an adult, and come to my own conclusions. I knew what the country had done wrong in the past, and the actions taken to correct those wrongs. The "wrongs" taught to me were not at all controversial -- simply that slavery and segregation were highly immoral.

It is a huge leap from there to teach that present-day America is systemicaly racist, especially when this isn't widely accepted by the population, and is incredibly controversial.

If this could be taught in such a way where both sides of the argument are equally presented and the students are allowed to make up their minds, I'd be okay with it, but this is obviously impossible to assure or monitor. As you said, this isn't China. Therefore, the safest play is simply to keep all controversial political propaganda out of public schools.

Then we agree. It's not even "both," it's "all."

But school shouldn't be "safe." Young minds need to be challenged and moved out of their comfort zone. Trying to keep schools "safe" sounds to me like the bullshit college left who want "safe spaces" where they are guaranteed never to be made uncomfortable. That's not real life and that's not healthy.

[nightmarefish]

Lol at Walt thinking schools are teaching CRT to challenge young minds. It's being taught to push a far left agenda and to appease the woke crowd. It's not a coincidence this theory is being pushed right after the BLM movement gained popularity.

The idea that blacks are inferior and whites have power over them to the point they can keep them from being successful in life is damaging to black kids. Gives them a victim mentality and a built in excuse to fail which lasts their entire life. How can't you see this?

[Walter Sobchak]

Lol at Walt thinking schools are teaching CRT to challenge young minds. It's being taught to push a far left agenda and to appease the woke crowd. It's not a coincidence this theory is being pushed right after the BLM movement gained popularity.

The idea that blacks are inferior and whites have power over them to the point they can keep them from being successful in life is damaging to black kids. Gives them a victim mentality and a built in excuse to fail which lasts their entire life. How can't you see this?

If it's being used in a way that gives anyone a victim mentality they're doing it wrong.

What's "not a coincidence" is that CRT is being pushed as a wedge culture war issue by Fox News and aspiring Republican presidential candidates as suddenly being a huge threat to our children when it's been around for decades. It's mostly an ivory tower intellectual thing. It probably has some influence on how curricula are designed but the idea that it's destroying kids' minds and preventing them from learning something in school is preposterous.

It's very reminiscent of Oklahoma passing their law banning sharia law. Whew! We were THIS CLOSE to a sharia law caliphate taking hold in Oklahoma.

[v12cl]

Lol at Walt thinking schools are teaching CRT to challenge young minds. It's being taught to push a far left agenda and to appease the woke crowd. It's not a coincidence this theory is being pushed right after the BLM movement gained popularity.

The idea that blacks are inferior and whites have power over them to the point they can keep them from being successful in life is damaging to black kids. Gives them a victim mentality and a built in excuse to fail which lasts their entire life. How can't you see this?

If it's being used in a way that gives anyone a victim mentality they're doing it wrong.

What's "not a coincidence" is that CRT is being pushed as a wedge culture war issue by Fox News and aspiring Republican presidential candidates as suddenly being a huge threat to our children when it's been around for decades. It's mostly an ivory tower intellectual thing. It probably has some influence on how curricula are designed but the idea that it's destroying kids' minds and preventing them from learning something in school is preposterous.

It's very reminiscent of Oklahoma passing their law banning sharia law. Whew! We were THIS CLOSE to a sharia law caliphate taking hold in Oklahoma.

You are super naïve if you think that, and should probably take a seat on the topic.

[MumblesBadly]

Lol at Walt thinking schools are teaching CRT to challenge young minds. It's being taught to push a far left agenda and to appease the woke crowd. It's not a coincidence this theory is being pushed right after the BLM movement gained popularity.

The idea that blacks are inferior and whites have power over them to the point they can keep them from being successful in life is damaging to black kids. Gives them a victim mentality and a built in excuse to fail which lasts their entire life. How can't you see this?

If it's being used in a way that gives anyone a victim mentality they're doing it wrong.

What's "not a coincidence" is that CRT is being pushed as a wedge culture war issue by Fox News and aspiring Republican presidential candidates as suddenly being a huge threat to our children when it's been around for decades. It's mostly an ivory tower intellectual thing. It probably has some influence on how curricula are designed but the idea that it's destroying kids' minds and preventing them from learning something in school is preposterous.

It's very reminiscent of Oklahoma passing their law banning sharia law. Whew! We were THIS CLOSE to a sharia law caliphate taking hold in Oklahoma.

Walter, I believe that your analogy about this matter is somewhat like how conservatives precviously pushed to ban sharia law. And I do so because the conservative propagandist Christopher Rufo has been very successful in conflating a particularly important tenet of CRT with CRT itself. Read this passage of Wikipedia’s page on CRT to understand what that particular tenet is:

“CRT scholars also view race and white supremacy as an intersectional social construction which serves to uphold the interests of white people against those of marginalized communities at large.”

This tenet could be clumsily summed up as the “The White Patriachy is Always Trying to Dominate Others” hypothesis, or WPATDO for short. And based on the reporting of the intersectional social construction exercises being taught to school-age kids in those super liberal schools, it does appear that those kids are being taught WPATDO as if it were a fact, and not as a hypothetical to be used in an academic examination of law or public policy, which is what CRT is.

In essence, conservatives are calling the teaching of WPATDO as fact in K-12 schools as “CRT” for the convenience of simplistic labeling irrespective of the intellectual dishonesty in doing so.

[MumblesBadly]

Came across a VERY interesting explanation of Critical Race Theory. Seems to be put forth by someone who is giving a pretty objective explanation of it, not some raving conservative who is railing against it. Very very interesting.



P.S. I should add that based on what I’ve learned so far about CRT, I don’t agree with some of its key tenets, nor the re-defining of key words — including “racism” and “White” — nor a key assumption CRTists make about the “cause” of differences in realized demographic outcomes between different racial/ethnic groups. (Hint: CRTists attribute them ALL to their redefined meaning of “racism”)

[Dan Druff]

Mumbles, the exact teachings of CRT don't matter here.

What matters is that CRT-like lessons are being taught in schools (or planned to be taught), and it's compulsory for the students to agree and parrot it back.

There is no plan anywhere to teach it as part of a curriculum where the other side is presented fairly, and students are left to make up their minds.

It's propaganda, pure and simple.

I will never let my son be exposed to such brainwashing -- at least not until college.

[dwai]

Mumbles, the exact teachings of CRT don't matter here.

What matters is that CRT-like lessons are being taught in schools (or planned to be taught), and it's compulsory for the students to agree and parrot it back.

There is no plan anywhere to teach it as part of a curriculum where the other side is presented fairly, and students are left to make up their minds.

It's propaganda, pure and simple.

I will never let my son be exposed to such brainwashing -- at least not until college.

fuck MumblesBadly and fuck black people

[MumblesBadly]

Mumbles, the exact teachings of CRT don't matter here.

What matters is that CRT-like lessons are being taught in schools (or planned to be taught), and it's compulsory for the students to agree and parrot it back.

There is no plan anywhere to teach it as part of a curriculum where the other side is presented fairly, and students are left to make up their minds.

It's propaganda, pure and simple.

I will never let my son be exposed to such brainwashing -- at least not until college.

I agree with what you said in bold. This is tauntamount to religious indoctrination that is equally as science-denying and anti-liberal as Christianity and Islam.

So, are you also supportive of the banning any public funding of K-12 schools being run by religious organization or such as with private school vouchers, where those schools provide religious training/indoctrination as part of normal curricula?

[dwai]

Mumbles, the exact teachings of CRT don't matter here.

What matters is that CRT-like lessons are being taught in schools (or planned to be taught), and it's compulsory for the students to agree and parrot it back.

There is no plan anywhere to teach it as part of a curriculum where the other side is presented fairly, and students are left to make up their minds.

It's propaganda, pure and simple.

I will never let my son be exposed to such brainwashing -- at least not until college.

I agree with what you said in bold. This is tauntamount to religious indoctrination that is equally as science-denying and anti-liberal as Christianity and Islam.

So, are you also supportive of the banning any public funding of K-12 schools being run by religious organization or such as with private school vouchers, where those schools provide religious training/indoctrination as part of normal curricula?

give it a rest faggot, we get it, you LOVE black people and have white guilt, hang yourself or drive off a cliff