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Thread: Biden Proposes Cap Gains Tax Hike to 43.4%

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    Biden Proposes Cap Gains Tax Hike to 43.4%

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-4-for-wealthy

    Key takeaways:
    -- Biden proposing hiking long term capital gains tax rate to 43.4% from 23.8% for earners of more than one million dollars a year
    -- Biden will detail the American Families Plan in a joint address to Congress on April 28.

    Druff, I wonder how the Ted Cruzes of the world will argue this one. A cap gains hike to 43.4% of households earning over $1 million a year or .4% of the country. Once the proper messaging gets out that this will only affect gains from investments and will be a tax on the "top 1%", the favorably will be in the high 70s to low 80s. It's like Cruz/Hawley being for the "working man" while being anti labor union at all costs. I guess they'll still have Dr Seuss and the woke MLB to worry about.

    Does the GQP have any issues really at all now besides guns? This measure will also have high favorability amongst voters that identify as republican that make under $200k a year, just like the COVID-19 stimulus. If they are able to finagle it past Moscow Mitch it will be the same song and dance as the COVID bill in the house. Madison Cawthorn types will vote against it, then take credit for it.

    Personally I am unsure if I support such a measure. Being an actual conservative and not some culture war cuck I find it hard to support any tax increase especially on gains from long term investments where the original investment is in post income tax money. But I do acknowledge that the government has underspent the last 50 years on on things like infrastructure and that this tax is primarily targeted to the super wealthy. I just have a hard time giving any money to the government when traditionally it is spent so wastefully.
    Last edited by BartHanson; 04-23-2021 at 07:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartHanson View Post
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-4-for-wealthy

    Key takeaways:
    -- Biden proposing hiking long term capital gains tax rate to 43.4% from 23.8% for earners of more than one million dollars a year
    -- Biden will detail the American Families Plan in a joint address to Congress on April 28.

    Druff, I wonder how the Ted Cruzes of the world will argue this one. A cap gains hike to 43.4% of households earning over $1 million a year or .4% of the country. Once the proper messaging gets out that this will only affect gains from investments and will be a tax on the "top 1%", the favorably will be in the high 70s to low 80s. It's like Cruz/Hawley being for the "working man" while being anti labor union at all costs. I guess they'll still have Dr Seuss and the woke MLB to worry about.

    Does the GQP have any issues really at all now besides guns? This measure will also have high favorability amongst voters that identify as republican that make under $200k a year, just like the COVID-19 stimulus. If they are able to finagle it past Moscow Mitch it will be the same song and dance as the COVID bill in the house. Madison Cawthorn types will vote against it, then take credit for it.

    Personally I am unsure if I support such a measure. Being an actual conservative and not some culture war cuck I find it hard to support any tax increase especially on gains from long term investments where the original investment is in post income tax money. But I do acknowledge that the government has underspent the last 50 years on on things like infrastructure and that this tax is primarily targeted to the super wealthy. I just have a hard time giving any money to the government when traditionally it is spent so wastefully.
    I can't speak for Ted Cruz.

    However, I think you are vastly overestimating the support for this tax hike among the non-rich portion of the Republican base. In general, Republican voters hate class warfare and tax increases, regardless of whether such tax increases are aimed only at the super rich.

    Why?

    Because:

    1) Many aspire to be that wealthy one day, and therefore already engage in thinking like a rich person. Instead of thinking, "Oh good! None of that will result in my taxes being raised!", they think, "Shit, when I become a huge success one day, this is going to fuck me."

    2) Many Republicans in the "reap what you sow" school of thought. Therefore, even the ones who know they'll never be wealthy don't approve of raising taxes on rich people. They think, "I respect these people for all the hard work and innovation that got them this far. It's not fair to take even more money from them just because they are doing well."

    3) Many Republicans generally distrust government and what will be done with tax dollars. If they think this extra tax money will be spent on the welfare state or on programs mandating the teaching of critical race theory, they're not going to want to see such dollars collected from anyone.


    There has long been a fallacy in the minds of Democrats that they can pass taxes aimed at only the rich, and such a thing would get widespread support in the electorate. It doesn't. It's actually quite hard to get this done without a lot of backlash.

    BTW, I actually agree with your assessment as to why this is the wrong move. And while I agree that there are some areas of infrastructure that need attention, the real solution is to stop wasting so much money (as was done recently in these "COVID relief" bills, which were mostly NOT about COVID relief), instead of raising taxes.

     
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    Also, the GOP will have plenty of issues because the Democrats have basically ceded control to the media and the far-left, and are now acting more extreme than ever.

    Simply countering all of that will be appealing to most Republicans and swing voters.

    Did you notice that the Dems LOST a substantial number of House seats in the 2020 election, even in districts which went strong Biden? Did you notice that not a single solid red House seat was lost, whereas the opposite wasn't true?

    Swing voters just aren't on board for the radical policy and cultural shifts being pressed by the Democrats right now. It's going to be a bad 2022 for the Democratic Party, unless post-COVID elation saves them.

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    I’ve not read up extensively on this yet but at first glance one of the major problems of this proposal is whatever tax revenue they are projecting it to create is assuredly a huge overestimation. The reason being is with a cap gains rate that high wealthy people with huge gains will just wait until their death so their heirs receive a step-up in-basis thus avoiding paying the gains. So unless they do away with the step-up at death in tandem with this legislation (which I know has been discussed) it’s not going to generate nearly as much revenue as predicted.

    Personally although I lean left socially I’m not in favor of this at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheesfaced View Post
    I’ve not read up extensively on this yet but at first glance one of the major problems of this proposal is whatever tax revenue they are projecting it to create is assuredly a huge overestimation. The reason being is with a cap gains rate that high wealthy people with huge gains will just wait until their death so their heirs receive a step-up in-basis thus avoiding paying the gains. So unless they do away with the step-up at death in tandem with this legislation (which I know has been discussed) it’s not going to generate nearly as much revenue as predicted.

    Personally although I lean left socially I’m not in favor of this at all.
    That's the other problem with these "soak the rich" type tax hikes.

    There are too many ways around them, to where many of the intended targets of this hike can simply modify things to legally avoid it. All this does is punish the rich people who already pay a shitload of taxes and don't try to find ways to avoid it, while allowing those underpaying to continue doing so.

    Much of this is symbolic. If Biden can say, "Look, I'm taxing the rich now", he thinks he wins points with those who like class warware.

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    Rich people are not dumb....every year they will balance gains with losses and pay almost nothing...just like they do now.

    Let the winners keep running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    However, I think you are vastly overestimating the support for this tax hike among the non-rich portion of the Republican base. In general, Republican voters hate class warfare and tax increases, regardless of whether such tax increases are aimed only at the super rich.
    I would be up for making a friendly wager with you on this topic. if we can both agree on a % figure o/u and some polling data that captures people identifying as republican and income levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    BTW, I actually agree with your assessment as to why this is the wrong move. And while I agree that there are some areas of infrastructure that need attention, the real solution is to stop wasting so much money (as was done recently in these "COVID relief" bills, which were mostly NOT about COVID relief), instead of raising taxes.
    Unfortunately this is not a realistic solution in the current world where elections are popularity contests. Neither party is interested in cutting spending. We need to come up with actual solutions not pie in the sky approaches that will never happen. With the current rate of expenditures the only way to not astronomically bloat the debt and devalue the currency is to raise revenue.

    Regarding Biden's proposal it's possible that this could be a political move to try and appease the progressive wing of his party. I doubt in this state and with these figures it would pass. But perhaps this is a first step in a negotiation to get it up to say, 30%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartHanson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    However, I think you are vastly overestimating the support for this tax hike among the non-rich portion of the Republican base. In general, Republican voters hate class warfare and tax increases, regardless of whether such tax increases are aimed only at the super rich.
    I would be up for making a friendly wager with you on this topic. if we can both agree on a % figure o/u and some polling data that captures people identifying as republican and income levels.
    Finding a poll we can both agree upon is going to be the problem, especially since these polls aren't announced before being taken, so we'll be in a situation where one of us says, "See, I'm right" and then the other will say, "No, that poll is biased."

    Why do you think that the Republican electorate is suddenly going to be in a tax-the-rich mood? Even Trump, with all of his populist rhetoric 5-6 years ago, wasn't pushing that. He talked about bringing back jobs, America first, make America great again, and drain the swamp, but not "tax the rich".

    In general, most people outside the current Republican Party have a poor understanding of GOP voters, and what makes them tick.

    The average Democrat believes that GOP voters are racist white guys who are threatened that their long run of power in this country is ending. I know just about zero Republicans who think that way, even some of the more extreme ones.

    I had another discussion with an otherwise rational and intelligent Democrat, who told me that GOP voters "aren't all bad people, some are just misinformed." He had an incredibly hard time understanding that it's possible to be a decent preson, well-informed, and still not want to vote Democrat. To him, it was either you were ignorant, tricked, or evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    I had another discussion with an otherwise rational and intelligent Democrat, who told me that GOP voters "aren't all bad people, some are just misinformed." He had an incredibly hard time understanding that it's possible to be a decent preson, well-informed, and still not want to vote Democrat. To him, it was either you were ignorant, tricked, or evil.

    I've never voted democrat in my life before 2020, just to set the record straight. But my hatred for the modern GOP is greater than the modern non ultra-left progressive dem.

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    Someone educate me on why a flat tax rate is bad? Maybe I’m
    uninformed or naive but it seems the fairest (and possibly easiest) way is to say everyone pays 15% or whatever the number is to get the requisite revenue and we move on. Why should the richest give away half of what they’ve worked hard for? Close loop holes and the 10,000 page tax code. Everyone pays their fair share (unless they are at a designated poverty level).

    I also think we could incredibly simplify things on the federal level. Shit like taxing inheritance which that money has already been taxed at least once is stupid.

    Some idiots don’t think we should pay tax. That’s absurd. We should all pay our fair share. Sure there is irresponsible government spending. That should always be reigned in. But the end result isn’t significantly less taxes.
    It's hilarious that we as a society think everyone can be a dr, a lawyer, an engineer. Some people are just fucking stupid. Why can't we just accept that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartHanson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    I had another discussion with an otherwise rational and intelligent Democrat, who told me that GOP voters "aren't all bad people, some are just misinformed." He had an incredibly hard time understanding that it's possible to be a decent preson, well-informed, and still not want to vote Democrat. To him, it was either you were ignorant, tricked, or evil.

    I've never voted democrat in my life before 2020, just to set the record straight. But my hatred for the modern GOP is greater than the modern non ultra-left progressive dem.
    You keep saying that, but I'm not seeing evidence that you're a conservative anymore. Most of your political talking points I've seen on Twitter are consistent with what I'm seeing from Democrats. I'n not saying that you have no conservative views left, but I'm saying that you seem to have moved to the left a lot, at least recently.

    You keep complaining about the "modern GOP". Okay, I can understand unhappiness with Trump and certain extreme House/Senate members, but the party platform isn't too different from the party platform of the year 2000, especially when you adjust for the change in world/national circumstances.

    The Democrats have made much more of a radical change in their party platform over the past 20 years than Republicans, especially if you ignore the blustery personalities like Trump, and just look at absolute policy (even Trump's policy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsearles22 View Post
    Someone educate me on why a flat tax rate is bad? Maybe I’m
    uninformed or naive but it seems the fairest (and possibly easiest) way is to say everyone pays 15% or whatever the number is to get the requisite revenue and we move on. Why should the richest give away half of what they’ve worked hard?
    A true flat tax will just never fly. There is a real debate to be had as to how steep or flat the curve should be as you go up income tiers. But as people are closer and closer to the poverty level, they really need to keep as much as they earn as possible. If the tax rate were flat say at 15%, more of the lower income earners would qualify for benefits anyways. So they would effectively be taxed less percentage-wise regardless.

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    Taxation is theft, audit the fed, buy dogecoin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDime View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jsearles22 View Post
    Someone educate me on why a flat tax rate is bad? Maybe I’m
    uninformed or naive but it seems the fairest (and possibly easiest) way is to say everyone pays 15% or whatever the number is to get the requisite revenue and we move on. Why should the richest give away half of what they’ve worked hard?
    A true flat tax will just never fly. There is a real debate to be had as to how steep or flat the curve should be as you go up income tiers. But as people are closer and closer to the poverty level, they really need to keep as much as they earn as possible. If the tax rate were flat say at 15%, more of the lower income earners would qualify for benefits anyways. So they would effectively be taxed less percentage-wise regardless.
    Flat tax with zero tax for the bottom earners would solve this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    You keep complaining about the "modern GOP". Okay, I can understand unhappiness with Trump and certain extreme House/Senate members, but the party platform isn't too different from the party platform of the year 2000, especially when you adjust for the change in world/national circumstances.
    I can't support a party that constantly fills their base with disinformation just to enrage them/raise money and would have have happily accepted a fraudulent result of a democratically held election. You still havent answered my question about your policies vs democracy. How on earth any republican could vote for Trump if he is the 2024 nominee is beyond me when he was clearly demanding that Pence not count certain certified state electors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartHanson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    You keep complaining about the "modern GOP". Okay, I can understand unhappiness with Trump and certain extreme House/Senate members, but the party platform isn't too different from the party platform of the year 2000, especially when you adjust for the change in world/national circumstances.
    I can't support a party that constantly fills their base with disinformation just to enrage them/raise money and would have have happily accepted a fraudulent result of a democratically held election. You still havent answered my question about your policies vs democracy. How on earth any republican could vote for Trump if he is the 2024 nominee is beyond me when he was clearly demanding that Pence not count certain certified state electors.
    The whole Georgia voting laws debacle is a lie by the left. The Georgia voting laws are more liberal than most of the northeastern states. This is just one example. The left is full of lies and deceit. Trump/Russia collusion is the biggest disinformation campaign in the history of the country. Five years of investigation found nothing. To say the disinformation comes only from the right is hilarious but also flabbergasting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BartHanson View Post

    I can't support a party that constantly fills their base with disinformation just to enrage them/raise money and would have have happily accepted a fraudulent result of a democratically held election. You still havent answered my question about your policies vs democracy. How on earth any republican could vote for Trump if he is the 2024 nominee is beyond me when he was clearly demanding that Pence not count certain certified state electors.
    The whole Georgia voting laws debacle is a lie by the left. The Georgia voting laws are more liberal than most of the northeastern states. This is just one example. The left is full of lies and deceit. Trump/Russia collusion is the biggest disinformation campaign in the history of the country. Five years of investigation found nothing. To say the disinformation comes only from the right is hilarious but also flabbergasting.
    Lol at crimmcuck going muhwhudda. Druff has trained his monkeys well.

    It's harder to vote in Georgia now based on a bloated narcissist throwing a tantrum about getting straight bodied. All lies, all GOP.

    The only thing 'flabbergasting' here is how you've carried AIDS for 40+ years. The cure HAS to reside somewhere in your throat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    The whole Georgia voting laws debacle is a lie by the left. The Georgia voting laws are more liberal than most of the northeastern states. This is just one example. The left is full of lies and deceit. Trump/Russia collusion is the biggest disinformation campaign in the history of the country. Five years of investigation found nothing. To say the disinformation comes only from the right is hilarious but also flabbergasting.
    Lol at crimmcuck going muhwhudda. Druff has trained his monkeys well.

    It's harder to vote in Georgia now based on a bloated narcissist throwing a tantrum about getting straight bodied. All lies, all GOP.

    The only thing 'flabbergasting' here is how you've carried AIDS for 40+ years. The cure HAS to reside somewhere in your throat.
    Not harder to vote in Georgia than it is in Rhode Island or Delaware or New York or a host of other states. Its just a big lie by cucks like you, sloppy hoe. Either that or you are just plain stupid. Either way it has no bearing on the cocks in your mouth, cumbreath.

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    The whole Georgia voting laws debacle is a lie by the left. The Georgia voting laws are more liberal than most of the northeastern states. This is just one example. The left is full of lies and deceit. Trump/Russia collusion is the biggest disinformation campaign in the history of the country. Five years of investigation found nothing. To say the disinformation comes only from the right is hilarious but also flabbergasting.
    Lol at crimmcuck going muhwhudda. Druff has trained his monkeys well.

    It's harder to vote in Georgia now based on a bloated narcissist throwing a tantrum about getting straight bodied. All lies, all GOP.

    The only thing 'flabbergasting' here is how you've carried AIDS for 40+ years. The cure HAS to reside somewhere in your throat.
    Come on man, are you really trying to say it’s hard to vote? Give me some bullet points that make it hard. Anyone that wants to vote can easily vote. Find me one person that really wants to but thinks it’s too hard so they don’t. The idea that these laws somehow prevent black people from voting by making it too hard for them is a racist idea in itself. Like they aren’t just as capable of voting as anyone else. It’s a joke.

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