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Thread: Jared Jaffee is furious at Matt Savage and Venetian for not combining final 8 players into one table at WPT Venetian

  1. #1
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Jared Jaffee is furious at Matt Savage and Venetian for not combining final 8 players into one table at WPT Venetian

    Jared Jaffee is one of those grizzled poker veterans who came up during the boom years while young, and have been able to survive long term. He's 40 years old, and you can sense a lot of cynicism in his tweets, as is common for formerly young players who came up during those years. He is often outspoken and will brashly come out on Twitter and state his opinion, regardless of who it offends or insults.

    He's done well for himself overall, racking up almost $5 million in tournament cashes since appearing on the scene in 2009.

    He recently decided to call out veteran tournament director Matt Savage for a head-scratching decision made when down to 8 players at the WPT Venetian, which had a $5k buyin and a $750,000 top prize.

    He teased with this:

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1369150036282511361


    Then he came forward with the whole story, the following day:

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1369342874530160640






    The poker community is overwhelmingly on Jaffee's side here, wondering why they decided to run two four-handers instead of one 8-hander, given that it's an 8-handed event. While it's true that WPT final tables are 6-handed, this still made little sense.

    Jaffee then accused Savage of trying to pass the buck.

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1369428273315319821


    Savage then joined the conversation, and I threw in a question:

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1369431546797686789


    Jaffee wasn't happy with that answer:

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1369437699887759364


    Notice that from Savage's link to the structure sheet, the relevant rule is this:

    SEATING REDRAWS: There will be a full seating redraw prior to the start of each day of play, unless the tournament is already at 24 players or fewer. In that case, redraws will take place at 24, 16, and 7 players (or at Tournament Director’s discretion).
    However, that doesn't explain how many handed the tournament is, only that redraws are done when there are 24, 16, and 7 players left. Given that it's an 8-handed event, they're doing the redraws at 3 full tables (24), 2 full tables (16), and 7 players (one player short of one table).

    Savage said that the Tournament Directors Association (TDA) voted in 2019 to always require balanced tables, and that they couldn't combine at 9 because of COVID rules, limit the maximum to 8 in Nevada. He claimed this prevented the usual combining at 9 players, so they had to stay separate at 9 (true), and then TDA rules disallowed combining them at 8, because they were balanced. That's why he said they combined at 7.

    Additionally, "redraw at 7" only makes sense if there's currently more than one table running, or otherwise a redraw is meaningless. (For those who aren't familiar, a "redraw" means getting new random table assignments, as is common at tournaments when there are 3 or fewer tables left.)

    Jaffee called it "ambiguous", and I agree. The bizarre thing is that the initial plan to "redraw at 7" makes essentially a 7-handed final table, when in reality the final table is 6-handed, as is always the case at WPT events! Also, the TDA rules don't seem to prohibit combining at 8 -- only to avoid unbalanced shorthanded tables (such as a 5 and 4 configuration, if COVID weren't happening).

    It looks like Savage intended this tournament to go to two 8-handed tables at 16, and then stay as two tables until it hit 7. However, the "7" thing is weird because it's one more than the final table (6), and one fewer than the size of the table for the rest of the event (8), so this really is awkward and should have been very clearly disclosed. It's also just a bad idea. If everyone's been playing 8-handed the whole time, and there's 8 left, then the obvious solution is to combine at 8.

    Jaffee feels that this was just a tactic to speed up the final two bustouts, as the 4-handed play forces antes to go in much faster (you're posting the BB ante once every 4 hands instead of once every 8), and thus knocks out short stacks a lot quicker.

    Savage maintains that this was in the structure sheet the whole way, and that it would have been wrong to change it midstream just because nobody liked it. However, given that all eight remaining players wanted to be combined, I think this was a no-brainer. Apparently nobody was objecting loudly, though, aside from Jaffee and Joe McKeehen.

  2. #2
    Seems pretty bad decision if they were playing 8 handed all along and split tables before it got to the usual 6. Out of curiosity, how did he finish? Not that it changes the argument whatsoever, just curious if getting this pissed threw him off mentally. Doubtful if heís been around this long and that stage of tourney is auto-decisions for the most part.

  3. #3
    Diamond mulva's Avatar
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    i agree and would be pissed.

    i wouldn't want to play 4x4 with eight left either.

    you want to reduce the time and play a quick bingo event play turbo's online
    Quote Originally Posted by bottomset_69 View Post
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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I need to clarify something, and even slightly modified the OP because my writeup was a bit confusing.

    They didn't split the final 8-handed table. It was already split, and Savage wouldn't combine it like everyone wanted and expected.

    Here was the configuration of tables, starting from 17 players left:

    17: 6-6-5
    16: (redraw) 8-8
    15: 8-7
    14: 7-7
    13: 7-6
    12: 6-6
    11: 6-5
    10: 5-5
    9: 5-4
    8: 4-4
    7: (redraw) Everyone at one table for remainder

    Everyone was fine with all of the above,EXCEPT for when it was 8 handed. That's the only controversy here. They couldn't combine at 9 due to COVID regulations, so that's not up for discussion.

    The only difference was whether the final eight players played at two tables (4 and 4) or one table of eight.

    Savage wanted it to remain as two tables, and everyone else (especially Jaffee and McKeehen) wanted it to be combined.

    I agree that it should have been combined.

  5. #5
    Gold JeffDime's Avatar
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    So hard to try and guess intent. Would these assholes really set the redraw at 7, to make 8th place have much greater chance of busting out quickly? I am going to say yes. It would make no sense to have a redraw at 7, if you just drew at 8. This is a sneaky way of having this 4/4 configuration without explicitly saying it. Most players probably didnít think much of what the 7 handed redraw really meant (4/4) until all of a sudden it happened.

    Seems like a real lack of empathy and understanding of what the players want. Even more egregious in this scenario, a complete disregard for what is simple common sense for an 8 handed tournament. Bad look WPT, Venetian (What else is knew?) and Matt Savage.

  6. #6
    Another situation where both sides are right. Was staying 4 x 4 a bad idea? Yes. It should have combined at that point. Did the structure sheet make it look like this was the plan to stay 4 x 4 until 7? Also yes. Can you change the rules mid stream? I donít think you should.

     
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      shoeshine box: Be like water. "Bruce Lee". that is all.
    It's hilarious that we as a society think everyone can be a dr, a lawyer, an engineer. Some people are just fucking stupid. Why can't we just accept that?

  7. #7

    Exclamation

    BS decision... they have to play 8 handed... 4handed the Venetian Gang in a rush to go home...
    Time for a new Ambassador... >> Jeremy Smith be better..Integrity personified, walked out on the SCAM Metal Silver tourney recently...JS = MAN who care for the GAME. and his reputation and the players..
    Matt alway's been about the $ bill now 100%..Always has been... he got u all BSed.
    I know J.Jaffee since his 1st day.
    He never no trouble, he good for the game and when he Pipes up he shd be LISTENed and comprehended...He never say's much. But when he doe's he spot on.
    I write a book one day but no one want to see poker=gambling. just they whitewashed it so much you would think. ehhhhhhh
    Last edited by shoeshine box; 03-09-2021 at 11:41 PM. Reason: Protect the Game ;0/

  8. #8
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsearles22 View Post
    Another situation where both sides are right. Was staying 4 x 4 a bad idea? Yes. It should have combined at that point. Did the structure sheet make it look like this was the plan to stay 4 x 4 until 7? Also yes. Can you change the rules mid stream? I donít think you should.
    If you can change it and it's not going to hurt anything, and if 100% of the remaining players agree, you should.

    There's no realistic scenario where players can complain that they would have played differently had they known it was going to combine at 7 players instead of 8. (Keep in mind that this debate came up when there were 10 left, apparently.)

    It's one of those things where you change it on the fly because your original plan was flawed, and you realize it's for the betterment of the tournament to change it. That's allowed, by the way.

    Savage didn't violate any rules or procedures, but he should have been more flexible.

    Do you think we'd see a single complaint right now if Savage had gone the other way?

  9. #9
    Platinum duped_samaritan's Avatar
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    I agree they should've just combined it, but Jaffee is over reacting.

     
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      shoeshine box: JJ a Lb/BB bug.!

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