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Thread: The Heads Up Undercard - Landon Tice versus Bill Perkins

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  3. #23
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411458632869322752

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411467189194924032

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411461494307319809

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411484996607434754



    I wish this was clarified beforehand. Everyone thought Perkins was getting $720k up front (though not paid until the match was over), and then Tice was having to come back from that. But apparently they had a quit-early agreement.

    While 9bb/100 is very tough to accomplish against any somewhat competent player (which Perkins, at the very least, seems to be), this is also a bit of an embarrassment (and a financial hit) for Solve For Why and Matt Berkey. For Tice himself, it's less embarrassing, as he's young and this was considered an ambitious goal. Solve For Why, however, aggressively promoted Tice as the next wunderkind, and his waving of the white flag against an amateur isn't the best look.

    They finished slightly less than 25% of hands planned.

  4. #24
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Perkins credits his improvement to solvers:

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411488050123743235

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411490976418263042

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411462119187386368



    Classy of Perkins to write the stuff about Tice and Solve For Why. My opinion of Perkins has slowly gotten better over time, and I like the guy.

  5. #25
    So how much did they lose? They were +$ on the live play, but then had to pay 9 bb per 100 hands?

    Doesn't feel like much $$ was lost.

  6. #26
    this bet was always 'will bill give a shit enough to study'...

    think he was an electrical engineering major turned HF manager...dude obviously isnt a fucking moron...if he gave enough shit to study he was gonna absolutely murder this bet getting 9bb/100...he did a helluva hustle to get them to agree to that kinda spot...id guess landon is probably around that sort of a favorite (or more) against 'fire it off' bill...against a studied bill, not so much...

  7. #27
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I believe Tice's side lost about $313k.

    4907 hands / 20000 hands = 0.24535 (they completed about 24.5% of hands)

    0.24535 * $720,000 = $176,652 (pro-rated amount due to Perkins for the 9BB/100)

    $176,652 - $63,720 = $112,932 (subtract amount Landon was up from the amount owed to Perkins)

    $112,932 + $200,000 = $312,932 (Perkins wins $200k sidebet)

    Looks like Landon lost $31,293 (10%), and his backers lost $281,639 (90%).

    Apparently there was no other quit-early penalty.

     
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  8. #28
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Apparently Tuukka Sevšnen, aka "buttonclickr", was Landon's "guest coach" brought in by Solve For Why, to help him with HUNL. From what I'm reading, Solve For Why felt they needed to bring in a specialist to really prepare Landon, and buttonclickr is a known top HUNL player.

    Jason Mo posted these screenshots on his Twitter, showing buttonclickr calling Landon "uncoachable".








    Ouch.

    Also, Landon is getting killed on 2+2 by the peanut gallery, including many people making fun of him for having his mommy involved in commenting on this entire thing.

  9. #29

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Apparently Tuukka Sevšnen, aka "buttonclickr", was Landon's "guest coach" brought in by Solve For Why, to help him with HUNL. From what I'm reading, Solve For Why felt they needed to bring in a specialist to really prepare Landon, and buttonclickr is a known top HUNL player.

    Jason Mo posted these screenshots on his Twitter, showing buttonclickr calling Landon "uncoachable".








    Ouch.

    Also, Landon is getting killed on 2+2 by the peanut gallery, including many people making fun of him for having his mommy involved in commenting on this entire thing.
    Is that screenshot from a discord channel?

     
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  11. #31
    Gold JeffDime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I believe Tice's side lost about $313k.

    4907 hands / 20000 hands = 0.24535 (they completed about 24.5% of hands)

    0.24535 * $720,000 = $176,652 (pro-rated amount due to Perkins for the 9BB/100)

    $176,652 - $63,720 = $112,932 (subtract amount Landon was up from the amount owed to Perkins)

    $112,932 + $200,000 = $312,932 (Perkins wins $200k sidebet)

    Looks like Landon lost $31,293 (10%), and his backers lost $281,639 (90%).

    Apparently there was no other quit-early penalty.
    I really do think Perkins is accommodating behind the scenes and ends up with less than this amount. The discussion seems very vague when it came to numbers. This is why Bill is always the go to guy to do these things with because of his generosity. I won’t guess in the end how much Landon’s side actually paid to Bill, but I would wager a hefty sum it was less than 312K.

    Especially in this case with Landon being so young, I just can’t see Bill not giving him a break. That break than in turn goes to the backers. This is total speculation, but it’s what I like to do. As for Landon, I give him mostly a pass because of his age and success.

    We live in a time where everyone wants to monetize everything quickly. That’s why the S4Y guys scooped him up, figuring they can market him as the next coming in the poker world. I’ve seen enough of the kid that I think he’s got a good heart. I think some criticisms of him are valid but a lot is just piling on because he is a bit wounded. Unfortunately, that is part of our culture as well.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDime View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I believe Tice's side lost about $313k.

    4907 hands / 20000 hands = 0.24535 (they completed about 24.5% of hands)

    0.24535 * $720,000 = $176,652 (pro-rated amount due to Perkins for the 9BB/100)

    $176,652 - $63,720 = $112,932 (subtract amount Landon was up from the amount owed to Perkins)

    $112,932 + $200,000 = $312,932 (Perkins wins $200k sidebet)

    Looks like Landon lost $31,293 (10%), and his backers lost $281,639 (90%).

    Apparently there was no other quit-early penalty.
    I really do think Perkins is accommodating behind the scenes and ends up with less than this amount. The discussion seems very vague when it came to numbers. This is why Bill is always the go to guy to do these things with because of his generosity. I wonít guess in the end how much Landonís side actually paid to Bill, but I would wager a hefty sum it was less than 312K.

    Especially in this case with Landon being so young, I just canít see Bill not giving him a break. That break than in turn goes to the backers. This is total speculation, but itís what I like to do. As for Landon, I give him mostly a pass because of his age and success.

    We live in a time where everyone wants to monetize everything quickly. Thatís why the S4Y guys scooped him up, figuring they can market him as the next coming in the poker world. Iíve seen enough of the kid that I think heís got a good heart. I think some criticisms of him are valid but a lot is just piling on because he is a bit wounded. Unfortunately, that is part of our culture as well.
    his mom apparently came to his defense on twitter............seriously..............not joking.............this is a 21-22-23 year old man we're talking about here...

    what the fuck is going on nowadays? fucking aliens are really fucking around with the simulation...

  13. #33
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    buttonclickr kinda sorta walking back his comments, but I think he was giving his true feelings in the leaked chat.

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1412325687210487809

  14. #34
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Also check out this fake account pretending to be Joey Ingram.

    In early February, this person posted several (fairly convincing) messages that Tice was greatly exaggerating his chess accomplishments as a kid.


    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1356155685214556162
    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1356157609049530372
    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1356159580565352448


    Bonus:

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1411933437741633536



    In the meantime, Berkey hightailed it 500 miles north to Lake Tahoe.

    https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1412180380208308226

  15. #35
    I heard that Perkin's coaches are really expensive - way more than you would ever imagine.

    According to my math - Perkins was only losing 3 BB/100 ?

  16. #36
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Perkins was down 3.25 BB/100 when Landon quit.

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  18. #38
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    If you've got 3 hours, here's a discussion between Polk, Kevin Rabichow, Jason Mo, and Perkins about the match.


  19. #39
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Watched 90 minutes of the Doug thing.

    JMo part was boring. Very disappointing. Everything he said was a repeat of his 2+2 post (see above), and most of the remaining time he was just bantering with Doug about inside stuff unrelated to this.

    Kevin Rabichow (one of the coaches and backers for Landon) was far more interesting, especially as it got further in.

    Cliffs of that part:

    - Too many random coaches were brought into the situatiom, and it left their side with poor cohesion/continuity.

    - All of the coaches were invested monetarily at the beginning, but many sold off most of their action, which was "demoralizing" to the team. (Presumably buttonclickr was one of them.)

    - Landon was upset and did NOT want to quit, but was basically forced to do so.

    - Rabichow also didn't want to quit, but was in the minority, as most of the other backers wanted out.

    - It was determined that Bill was making fewer and fewer large mistakes, and these mistakes were necessary for Landon to cover 9 BB per 100. Once this was realized, backers wanted out.

    - It was implied by Rabichow that buttonclickr wasn't a very good coach, and got too impatient when Landon didn't immediately grasp concepts brought to him. buttonclickr would just drop the concepts on him and not attempt to make sure Landon was getting it. It was also said that buttonclickr is also only 20, and is somewhat immature.

  20. #40
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Perkins part kinda interesting, too.

    - He was crossbooking to where he was effectively playing 500/1000 in the match.

    - Tom Marchese, who was one of the crossbookers (or the only one?) wanted to take even more action, but Perkins was a little afraid there was an edge on the other side which he didn't understand.

    - He claims he didn't manipulate Landon into the 9 BB per 100. He said that the negotiation was "3 tweets", and that Landon pretty much came at him and postured that he could easily win a lot off of him, so he was very willing to do 9BB/100. At one point, Perkins compared Landon to a "12 year old girl who comes and challenges you to arm wrestling". Ouch.

    - He had a big argument with Berkey after the Phil Nagy spectacle involving the ACR betting-on-the-match controversy. Berkey felt that he was taking all kinds of heat and Perkins wasn't backing him enough. Perkins at first was insulted by this and yelled at Berkey on the phone, but later baced down when his coach MJ Gonzalez said that he kinda was too passive regarding defending Berkey. Anyway, I still get the impression that Perkins doesn't care for Berkey too much.

    - Perkins was inspired by the coaches on the Solve For Why show saying that Landon had a huge edge, as the match was already in progress.

    - Perkins agrees with Polk that the most surprising thing about the match was that Landon "wasn't that good", rather than Perkins being much better than expected. "He's not Doug Polk... he's not a wizard", said Perkins. Ouch again.

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