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Thread: The DC statehood debate

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    The DC statehood debate

    Here is a good essay regarding the history of DC, posted today on Facebook by an old friend of mine I met decades ago through my temple:

    I have lately been hearing renewed calls for the District of Columbia to become a State. Unfortunately, for many people voicing their opinions, contemporary politics are playing a role in support for or opposition to this proposition, with Republicans opposing Statehood because it would give Democrats more votes and Democrats supporting Statehood for exactly the same reason.

    This is ridiculous, because DC Statehood would be forever, and, just as some formerly "red" States have turned "blue" and formerly "blue" States have turned "red," the current political makeup of the District of Columbia is not guaranteed to last forever: while it is currently mostly Democrat-leaning, that could change in the future, something that members of both major parties seem to be forgetting.

    Instead, we must look at the broader picture.



    BACKGROUND

    At the present time, the USA consists of 50 States, the District of Columbia, and four major territories: Puerto Rico, the United States Virgin Islands, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, and Guam. People born in these territories are full United States citizens, not through the Fourteenth Amendment (which is where people born in States get their citizenship) but by statute.

    There is another territory where things work a bit differently: American Samoa (plus Swains Island, which has not actually had any permanent inhabitants since 2008). American Samoans are not United States citizens; they are United States NATIONALS. They carry the same passports as citizens and have unlimited rights to travel to, move to, or work in any other part of the U.S. They are also immune from deportation and cannot lose their status merely by being away from the USA for too much time (unlike "Lawful Permanent Residents," better known as "Green Card holders," who, although residing legally in the U.S., can be deported if they commit certain crimes and can also lose their status if they stay outside of the USA for too much time). After residing in another part of the USA for three months, United States nationals can apply to change to become full United States citizens.

    These territories (including American Samoa) send a nonvoting Delegate to the House of Representatives (who, while "nonvoting," usually does vote in COMMITTEES, just not in votes of the full House of Representatives) but do not send two Senators to the Senate, the way States do.

    The territories do not send electors to the Electoral College, either, meaning, in a practical sense, that residents of these territories do not vote for President (but do vote in primaries).

    If someone from one of the United States territories moves to a State, that person – who is already a United States citizen – gains the right to vote for President and send Senators and voting Representatives to Congress, just like all other United States citizens who reside in that State.

    (The exception is someone from American Samoa/Swains Island, who is a United States national, rather than a citizen. If a national moves to a State, that person does not gain the right to vote, but, again, after three months living in that State, can apply to become a citizen, after which the person then gains the right to vote.)

    Putting aside the original 13 States, the majority of States in the U.S. started out as territories (or parts of other territories – such as how the States of Oregon and Washington were once together, as the Oregon Territory). As a result, places like Puerto Rico, Guam, the United States Virgin Islands, or the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands are on track to one day become States, in keeping with the trend we have already seen in the history of the country. From the perspective of the outside world, this would not really change anything, since these places are already part of the United States.

    Likewise, in terms of the daily lives of the residents, not much would change with U.S. Statehood, since they already hold United States citizenship. The primary change that would come with Statehood would be seen every election day, as residents would gain the right to vote for two Senators, (voting) Representatives, and President (i.e., by sending electors to the Electoral College).



    DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

    The District of Columbia is administered much like the other non-States (i.e., territories). Natives of the District of Columbia are full United States citizens but do not send Senators to the Senate. Since 1970, they have been sending a non-voting Delegate to the House of Representatives. A difference, though, is with regard to President.

    Prior to 1961, U.S. citizens living in the District of Columbia were just like the people in U.S. territories, not sending electors to the Electoral College (and, thus, not voting for President). With the ratification of the 23rd Amendment, that changed, and now the District of Columbia is the only non-State in the U.S. that sends electors to the Electoral College (meaning, in a practical sense, that United States citizens living in the District of Columbia now vote for President, just like United States citizens living in States).

    So the main things that the District of Columbia would gain through Statehood would be the right to vote for two Senators and the right to vote for VOTING Representatives in the House of Representatives.

    In addition, as a State, it would have a degree of sovereignty vis-à-vis the federal government and could, for example, call up the National Guard without the need to go through the federal government (which currently administers DC).

    So what is the problem with Statehood for the District of Columbia?

    The Constitution provides that the "Seat of the Government of the United States" is to be located in a district "not exceeding 10 Miles square." The idea here is that the national capital would be in a neutral territory that is not part of any State. (Australia's capital – Canberra – is, likewise, in the neutral Australian Capital Territory, which is not part of any Australian state.)

    To accomplish this, the States of Maryland and Virginia each gave up some land to create the District of Columbia. (However, the size of the District shrank in 1846, when Virginia's part was returned to it, in what has been referred to as "retrocession"; the remaining portion of the District of Columbia is still quite expansive.)

    The primary argument against DC Statehood is that the Framers of the Constitution intended for the capital of the United States to be in a neutral District that is not part of any State (so that it is, indeed, the capital of the ENTIRE country, without favoritism toward any one State).

    To address this, the District's nonvoting Delegate has, since 1991, been proposing legislation every year that would keep the "Seat of Government" buildings (i.e., the White House, the Capitol Building, the Supreme Court building, etc.) in the District while making the remainder either part of a new State or part of an existing State (for example, Maryland).

    The question remains if it is possible to have the nation's capital consist merely of the White House and a few other buildings.

    However one comes down on this issue, the decision will affect the country for generations to come, so the petty issues of contemporary politics must be set aside as the question gets debated.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I know that some want to see DC become a state.

    However, this is not fair because DC was never intended to be a state. It was chopped out of existing states, and if the concern is that 700k or so people have no federal representation, the solution is to return almost all of DC back to the states that it came from, thus giving these people representation. The solution is NOT to create a separate state in order to give a tremendous advantage to that territory which it was never supposed to have.

    Thus, the fairest solution is to turn DC into a tiny area of federal buildings, and return the rest of the city to either Maryland, Virginia, or a combination of both. Then adjust Congressional representation as necessary. This will fully address the "we don't have any federal representation" concerns, without creating a 51st state which runs counter to the entire purpose of DC in the first place.

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    Diamond BCR's Avatar
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    That argument doesn’t make a lot of sense and is pretending to not be partisan when it clearly is. It wouldn’t be beholden or showing favoritism to any state if it’s granted statehood. So that point is moot. It’s larger in population than a Wyoming.

    I’m fine leaving it as it is, even though it enjoying statehood would lessen the continued over influence and minority majority that red states currently have, but I’d be for making it a state before making the nations capital just a bunch of buildings. I don’t like the idea of that at all.

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    Diamond Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I know that some want to see DC become a state.

    However, this is not fair because DC was never intended to be a state. It was chopped out of existing states, and if the concern is that 700k or so people have no federal representation, the solution is to return almost all of DC back to the states that it came from, thus giving these people representation. The solution is NOT to create a separate state in order to give a tremendous advantage to that territory which it was never supposed to have.

    Thus, the fairest solution is to turn DC into a tiny area of federal buildings, and return the rest of the city to either Maryland, Virginia, or a combination of both. Then adjust Congressional representation as necessary. This will fully address the "we don't have any federal representation" concerns, without creating a 51st state which runs counter to the entire purpose of DC in the first place.
    Intent? Fairness? LOL

    Slavery was "intended" to last forever and when the Constitution was written they bent over backwards to protect it. Things change.

    There's nothing "fair" about denying people representation in their government.

    There's also nothing sacred about preserving a perceived balance of power when considering statehood. The Dakota Territory was split into two states specifically to increase a Republican advantage in Congress that they had during the post-Civil War period. Four senators is better than two. Other western states were added strategically for this purpose, and the pre-Civil War period had several "compromises" about adding slave and free states simultaneously to maintain a balance of power. The effects remain with us today, not necessarily to the advantage of either party, but they remain.

    Returning most of DC to Maryland is a reasonable proposal, but it's not necessarily more "fair" than making it a state. It would also require Maryland's consent.

    If this were done, this still leaves over 3 million people in Puerto Rico with no representation (larger than many states) and a few hundred thousand elsewhere mostly in the Pacific Islands. So at least PR should become a state.

    It's also reasonable to counterbalance Republican efforts to even further gerrymander the Electoral College. Wisconsin's legislature, controlled by Republicans thanks to gerrymandering even though 55% of the state voted Democratic, is considering awarding electoral votes by House district in the future. In 2020 this would have given Trump 6 EVs and Biden 4 despite a solid Biden win in the state. You can expect other swing states controlled by Republican legislatures to do the same. As the Republican base shrinks and America becomes more urban, they will have to continue to twist themselves into knots and take extremely undemocratic measures to win presidential elections or have any real shot of keeping the House for any length of time. And they are willing to do so, regardless of any sense of equity or morality. So fuck what Republicans think is "fair."

     
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      MumblesBadly: Nailed it.
      
      dwai: you are awful, makes sense you're black

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    Diamond dwai's Avatar
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    FUCK D.C. FUCK WASHINGTON, NO STATE FOR YOU

     
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      Sloppy Joe: Valuable contribution as always
      
      Walter Sobchak: clap clap clap
      
      splitthis:
      
      Ryback_feed_me_more:

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    There isn't a solution to this which doesn't have some downside, including the status quo.

    However, I still feel greatly reducing DC's size and returning most of it to other states is the fairest. That's how DC came to be, so you're basically just reversing it, while keeping the part of DC as-is which matters (the federal government).

    The problem with creating a state was that it was specifically set aside to be neutral from the federal government, so as to not give any state an unfair preference. So not only was this never intended, but it was actually carved out of existing states, and not an independent entity to begin with.

    The "DC for Statehood" thing is really about gaining extra Senators for the Dems (and one extra governor). It's not about representation or fairness. But if they insist that's what it's about, then a return of the vast majority of this territory to states (which are both blue) should be sufficient.

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    Diamond dwai's Avatar
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    lol @ the typical leftie shills in here mad af about a post about DC, red repping

    rofl clown shoes bro

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    Diamond BCR's Avatar
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    We already live in an unfair situation where states with little population are over represented. That’s fine, it was set up that way, but there has been thirty-seven states added since that point in time. There is nothing wrong with making it 38. I don’t like the buildings solution, but that can be done and the people given their own state at the same time.

    I want the two extra senators and extra governor.

    I won’t pretend to be non-partisan like that essay. We are already a minority majority country with Republicans being over-represented. At a time when Republican legislatures in Oregon and Arizona are censuring other Republicans for their refusal to live in an alternate reality and pledge their allegiance to a mentally ill cult leader, I’m for anything to lessen their influence in America.

    I’m fine with leaving it as it is and waiting for demographics to cure the GOP problem, but I would hope for a state before the other solution for obvious reasons.

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    We should actually take away statehood from Hawaii and Alaska if the other non contiguous territories aren’t states.

    Just give Puerto Rico it’s freedom and be done with it.

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    Diamond Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Republicans: It's totally fair that 20 states with the combined population of California each get two senators and California gets 2 for 40 million people.

    Also Republicans: Hey you're giving people representation! You're going to add 2 Democratic Senators! THAT'S NOT FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR!

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texter View Post
    We should actually take away statehood from Hawaii and Alaska if the other non contiguous territories aren’t states.

    Just give Puerto Rico it’s freedom and be done with it.
    Puerto Rico probably doesn't want statehood. They like not having to pay federal income tax.

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    So split California in 3.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    We already live in an unfair situation where states with little population are over represented. That’s fine, it was set up that way, but there has been thirty-seven states added since that point in time. There is nothing wrong with making it 38. I don’t like the buildings solution, but that can be done and the people given their own state at the same time.

    I want the two extra senators and extra governor.

    I won’t pretend to be non-partisan like that essay. We are already a minority majority country with Republicans being over-represented. At a time when Republican legislatures in Oregon and Arizona are censuring other Republicans for their refusal to live in an alternate reality and pledge their allegiance to a mentally ill cult leader, I’m for anything to lessen their influence in America.

    I’m fine with leaving it as it is and waiting for demographics to cure the GOP problem, but I would hope for a state before the other solution for obvious reasons.
    Well, yes, I can understand why Democrats like yourself want the extra senators and governor! From the standpoint of increasing your party's power, you should indeed want DC statehood.

    And from the standpoint of being a Republican, I don't want DC statehood.

    However, I'm trying to look beyond that and examine why DC deserves or doesn't deserve to be a state. To me it seems simple. If it was originally part of MD/VA, then return it to MD/VA. That solves the no-representation problem.

    I guess it depends what you're looking for. If you're looking to equalize what you feel is Republican overrepresentation, then sure, this is one solution. If you're just looking to do what is fair from a nonpartisan standpoint and have the least impact on our federal government system, my solution is best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Texter View Post
    We should actually take away statehood from Hawaii and Alaska if the other non contiguous territories aren’t states.

    Just give Puerto Rico it’s freedom and be done with it.
    Puerto Rico probably doesn't want statehood. They like not having to pay federal income tax.
    That’s why I said cut them loose, not afraid of communism and Cuban influence anymore.

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    Platinum Jayjami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Texter View Post
    We should actually take away statehood from Hawaii and Alaska if the other non contiguous territories aren’t states.

    Just give Puerto Rico it’s freedom and be done with it.
    Puerto Rico probably doesn't want statehood. They like not having to pay federal income tax.
    President Ford first proposed statehood for PR. My understanding is that it has never happened because there’s hasn’t been an overwhelming desire for statehood by its citizens. It’s kind of unfair for DC residents though. There’s a lot more people there than Wyoming and no Congressional representation.

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    Flashlight Master desertrunner's Avatar
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    The DC statehood debate

    Horrible idea, it’s a district because of neutrality. It’s been that way for a reason. Dems are trying to rule and screw up this country even more.

     
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      GrenadaRoger:

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    Platinum GrenadaRoger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Republicans: It's totally fair that 20 states with the combined population of California each get two senators and California gets 2 for 40 million people.

    Also Republicans: Hey you're giving people representation! You're going to add 2 Democratic Senators! THAT'S NOT FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR!
    a deal is a deal...there wouldn't have been a union under the Constitution without the compromise deal that gave 2 senators to each state while representatives were based on population. imo it would be unfair to small states would be to break the deal that made the union--if you are changing that deal, then you need to offer states small and large the option of leaving.
    (long before there was a PFA i had my Grenade & Crossbones avatar at DD)

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    Master of Props Daly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Republicans: It's totally fair that 20 states with the combined population of California each get two senators and California gets 2 for 40 million people.

    Also Republicans: Hey you're giving people representation! You're going to add 2 Democratic Senators! THAT'S NOT FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR!

    Hey why the fuck not. Let’s make DC a state, eliminate the filibuster, add 7 new Supreme Court justices and open up the boarders and give everyone insta citizenships.

    then in four years we can cut Montana into three states and give them incremental 4 More, add 13 justices and then start deporting everyone we let in 4 years earlier.

    Better yet - why don’t we leave it all the fuck alone. The left can get almost anything they want through right now so long as it’s not left of Mao. And even if they can’t sign it into law the executive orders have been bastardized enough You can legislate via the pen.

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    Platinum GrenadaRoger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by desertrunner View Post
    Horrible idea, it’s a district because of neutrality. It’s been that way for a reason. Dems are trying to rule and screw up this country even more.
    James Madison in the Federalist papers explained why DC was set up as independent of any state...

    Mr Walter, I suggest you read it; you can find it by google. To me (and probably to a lot of other PFAer's) Madison's thoughts still made sense.
    (long before there was a PFA i had my Grenade & Crossbones avatar at DD)

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    Diamond Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by desertrunner View Post
    Horrible idea, it’s a district because of neutrality. It’s been that way for a reason. Dems are trying to rule and screw up this country even more.
    James Madison in the Federalist papers explained why DC was set up as independent of any state...

    Mr Walter, I suggest you read it; you can find it by google. To me (and probably to a lot of other PFAer's) Madison's thoughts still made sense.
    I understand that but there's not much danger of the representatives of DC the state wielding disproportionate influence over anything. And there's no issue like slavery that so perfectly divides one region from another. The nation is much more complex and there are 50 states not 13. Those reasons were perfectly valid at the time but aren't much of a concern now.

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