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Thread: The Senate trial of Donald J. Trump for “Inciting an Erection... Insurrection” of the United States”

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duped_samaritan View Post


    I did not say it was unconstitutional. It's not unconstitutional. Come on now. The libtard trolling is weak, this is not about left vs right.

    I was responding to your hypothetical with another hypothetical that's no more unrealistic than having George Washington impeached.

    Should a president be able to avoid being convicted and disqualified from running for office in the future simply by resigning right before the verdict? Do you think the framers intended to give that as an option?


    That's what you're arguing.

    And we haven't even gotten to the fact that there's already precedent that shows you don't need to be in office to be Impeached and convicted by the Senate.

    That is NOT what I'm arguing. He could still be prosecuted under Civil or Criminal statutes. But, he is not subject to Impeachment. You are having a difficult time understanding the difference. Impeachment and Removal is a Political tool.

    And there is NO precedent involving a former President. And Trump didn't resign, his term was over. You are confusing facts..
    He's not saying Trump resigned, he's giving you a hypothetical scenario that would be fine under your understanding of the constitution. Come on guy.....

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duped_samaritan View Post


    I did not say it was unconstitutional. It's not unconstitutional. Come on now. The libtard trolling is weak, this is not about left vs right.

    I was responding to your hypothetical with another hypothetical that's no more unrealistic than having George Washington impeached.

    Should a president be able to avoid being convicted and disqualified from running for office in the future simply by resigning right before the verdict? Do you think the framers intended to give that as an option?


    That's what you're arguing.

    And we haven't even gotten to the fact that there's already precedent that shows you don't need to be in office to be Impeached and convicted by the Senate.

    That is NOT what I'm arguing. He could still be prosecuted under Civil or Criminal statutes. But, he is not subject to Impeachment. You are having a difficult time understanding the difference. Impeachment and Removal is a Political tool.

    And there is NO precedent involving a former President. And Trump didn't resign, his term was over. You are confusing facts..

    This is all so simple actually.

    If Donald Trump is found guilty here, it's game over. He can not and will not run again in 2024 which is the whole point. This is to finally and wholly remove him from a Political Office in the future (mainly 2024). If Trump is found Guilty here, he cant run in 2024 its that simple. That is the whole point of this entire ordeal (saga?). And imo he is guilty and he is going to pay the consequences. And as a result we as a Country will not have to endure another 'Donald Trump' saga again in 2024. This is to wholly, remove his ability to hold public office moving forward. And I think that's Dupeds point to you here actually, you seem to want to see Trump survive this (lol not happening)..

    I think it will work and its 'Game Over' for Donald Trump and he isnt going to be able to run in 2024. The whole point, stop arguing semantics imo...

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post


    That is NOT what I'm arguing. He could still be prosecuted under Civil or Criminal statutes. But, he is not subject to Impeachment. You are having a difficult time understanding the difference. Impeachment and Removal is a Political tool.

    And there is NO precedent involving a former President. And Trump didn't resign, his term was over. You are confusing facts..

    This is all so simple actually.

    If Donald Trump is found guilty here, it's game over. He can not and will not run again in 2024 which is the whole point. This is to finally and wholly remove him from a Political Office in the future (mainly 2024). If Trump is found Guilty here, he cant run in 2024 its that simple. That is the whole point of this entire ordeal (saga?). And imo he is guilty and he is going to pay the consequences. And as a result we as a Country will not have to endure another 'Donald Trump' saga again in 2024. This is to wholly, remove his ability to hold public office moving forward. And I think that's Dupeds point to you here actually, you seem to want to see Trump survive this (lol not happening)..

    I think it will work and its 'Game Over' for Donald Trump and he isnt going to be able to run in 2024. The whole point, stop arguing semantics imo...

    You both are wrong. First of all, I am not a member of either political party. Also I did not vote Trump into office. Back in 2016 I wrote "None of the Above" on my Ballot as a write in Candidate. (In Florida we can do write in candidates) I think we were faced with 2 horrible choices between him and Hillary. I couldn't bring myself to vote for either of them. And personally, I would like to see him go away quietly. But, unlike you and many other Libtards, I am able to differentiate between PROCESS and OUTCOME. To me the end, never justifies the means, fi the means are not Constitutional. Congress does not have the right to try and convict Private citizens. Trump is a private Citizen. Game over.

    And you say he's sunk. I say good luck finding 67 votes to convict. Even the most anti-Trump folks have acknowledged this. Just like there was not way the Republicans could find 67 votes to Convict and remove Clinton. There will only be around 5-8 Republicans that vote to convict. Add that to the 50 Democrats and you get what number? Far less than the 67 needed. Game over.

  4. #144
    Platinum garrett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post


    This is all so simple actually.

    If Donald Trump is found guilty here, it's game over. He can not and will not run again in 2024 which is the whole point. This is to finally and wholly remove him from a Political Office in the future (mainly 2024). If Trump is found Guilty here, he cant run in 2024 its that simple. That is the whole point of this entire ordeal (saga?). And imo he is guilty and he is going to pay the consequences. And as a result we as a Country will not have to endure another 'Donald Trump' saga again in 2024. This is to wholly, remove his ability to hold public office moving forward. And I think that's Dupeds point to you here actually, you seem to want to see Trump survive this (lol not happening)..

    I think it will work and its 'Game Over' for Donald Trump and he isnt going to be able to run in 2024. The whole point, stop arguing semantics imo...

    You both are wrong. First of all, I am not a member of either political party. Also I did not vote Trump into office. Back in 2016 I wrote "None of the Above" on my Ballot as a write in Candidate. (In Florida we can do write in candidates) I think we were faced with 2 horrible choices between him and Hillary. I couldn't bring myself to vote for either of them. And personally, I would like to see him go away quietly. But, unlike you and many other Libtards, I am able to differentiate between PROCESS and OUTCOME. To me the end, never justifies the means, fi the means are not Constitutional. Congress does not have the right to try and convict Private citizens. Trump is a private Citizen. Game over.

    And you say he's sunk. I say good luck finding 67 votes to convict. Even the most anti-Trump folks have acknowledged this. Just like there was not way the Republicans could find 67 votes to Convict and remove Clinton. There will only be around 5-8 Republicans that vote to convict. Add that to the 50 Democrats and you get what number? Far less than the 67 needed. Game over.
    o.k not that it is important but because I don't care if people know this...

    I am a Registered (Independent) and have been for over a decade now. I really am truly a 'Middle of the road' guy. I'd say in certain areas like Economically I definitely lean more Right or 'Conservative' in ways. But social freedoms I think people need space am probably more Left leaning and Liberal for example. I can actually truly go either way, with who I will vote for and why every 4 years. I guess that is why im an (Independent).. lol at thinking I am a Liberal i am not. I am however and have been for years a registered (Independent) =)

    I'm also a Floridian (swing State) like yourself, So us actual real (Independent) matter come election time here they say =)
    Last edited by garrett; 02-10-2021 at 12:25 PM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post


    Ding! Ding! Ding! Finally, someone who gets it.

    imo Donald Trump is fucked here....

    He did 100% instigate all of his followers on January 6th (with Lies LOL). And so he cant/wont run again in 4 years, I dont think this is going to go well for him. They are going for the jugular here, and they do have a case. So he doesn't/cant run again in 4 years, and imo I think its going to work. Donlad Trump is fucked here, and he did instigate that whole mess which culminated on Jan 6th, which his "Fraud" and lying bullshit. Me personally, I'm over his whole thing and I just thing for Americas sake all in all, its probably best we as a Country move forward and past this whole Donald Trump saga and drama.

    Its time to just finally and wholly close this Donald Trump chapter in American history.
    If Donald Trump and his supporters pull out of the republican party....then the republican party will be reduced to a third place party barely getting 17% of the vote in state and federal elections. Thats the reality of the situation. Idiots like Romney, Sasse, Murkowski, will destroy the republican party if they get their way.
    wittle waltie, nightmarefish and sloppy joe are the shit stains in the underwear of life.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post


    That is NOT what I'm arguing. He could still be prosecuted under Civil or Criminal statutes. But, he is not subject to Impeachment. You are having a difficult time understanding the difference. Impeachment and Removal is a Political tool.

    And there is NO precedent involving a former President. And Trump didn't resign, his term was over. You are confusing facts..

    This is all so simple actually.

    If Donald Trump is found guilty here, it's game over. He can not and will not run again in 2024 which is the whole point. This is to finally and wholly remove him from a Political Office in the future (mainly 2024). If Trump is found Guilty here, he cant run in 2024 its that simple. That is the whole point of this entire ordeal (saga?). And imo he is guilty and he is going to pay the consequences. And as a result we as a Country will not have to endure another 'Donald Trump' saga again in 2024. This is to wholly, remove his ability to hold public office moving forward. And I think that's Dupeds point to you here actually, you seem to want to see Trump survive this (lol not happening)..

    I think it will work and its 'Game Over' for Donald Trump and he isnt going to be able to run in 2024. The whole point, stop arguing semantics imo...
    Where do you put the odds of the senate getting 67 votes to convict him? I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum willing to gamble with you on whether they get the 67 votes.
    wittle waltie, nightmarefish and sloppy joe are the shit stains in the underwear of life.

  7. #147
    Platinum garrett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post


    This is all so simple actually.

    If Donald Trump is found guilty here, it's game over. He can not and will not run again in 2024 which is the whole point. This is to finally and wholly remove him from a Political Office in the future (mainly 2024). If Trump is found Guilty here, he cant run in 2024 its that simple. That is the whole point of this entire ordeal (saga?). And imo he is guilty and he is going to pay the consequences. And as a result we as a Country will not have to endure another 'Donald Trump' saga again in 2024. This is to wholly, remove his ability to hold public office moving forward. And I think that's Dupeds point to you here actually, you seem to want to see Trump survive this (lol not happening)..

    I think it will work and its 'Game Over' for Donald Trump and he isnt going to be able to run in 2024. The whole point, stop arguing semantics imo...
    Where do you put the odds of the senate getting 67 votes to convict him? I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum willing to gamble with you on whether they get the 67 votes.

    O.K more Semantics from you MAGA-Tards.

    Honestly end of the day I think it's game over for Donald Trump here. And let's say you are correct, and he doesn't get impeached here for a second time. You really think the GOP abd Republicans actually will get behind this total mess that is Donald Trump. You cant win an actual Political Office, without the GOP behind you and even if he skirts this LOL if you think the GOP is going to get behind him, they will not. So again leaving Semantics out of this IMO it's game over for Donald Trump. And for us as a whole and this Country I do love. I think it is in our best interest that we as a Country now move on, past this ridiculous in ways, Donald Trump era....

    Its just time we al move on now, he wasn't that great either. A delusional power-mongerer, blowhard, and me personally im so over him (or this all) honestly...

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Where do you put the odds of the senate getting 67 votes to convict him? I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum willing to gamble with you on whether they get the 67 votes.

    O.K more Semantics from you MAGA-Tards.

    Honestly end of the day I think it's game over for Donald Trump here. And let's say you are correct, and he doesn't get impeached here for a second time. You really think the GOP abd Republicans actually will get behind this total mess that is Donald Trump. You cant win an actual Political Office, without the GOP behind you and even if he skirts this LOL if you think the GOP is going to get behind him, they will not. So again leaving Semantics out of this IMO it's game over for Donald Trump. And for us as a whole and this Country I do love. I think it is in our best interest that we as a Country now move on, past this ridiculous in ways, Donald Trump era....

    Its just time we al move on now, he wasn't that great either. A delusional power-mongerer, blowhard, and me personally im so over him (or this all) honestly...
    Trump in 2024. MAGA! You fucking idiot libtard.
    wittle waltie, nightmarefish and sloppy joe are the shit stains in the underwear of life.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post
    FWIW. So, I heard all of the arguments regarding the Senate having Jurisdiction and the Constitutionality of the Impeachment of a President being Impeached while no longer in office. I think the arguments on both sides were well orated. If it were me voting, I think the bill of attainder argument put forth by Trump's counsel was extremely persuasive. I think that Pelosi outsmarted herself by holding onto the Articles of Impeachment until he left office to get around the Chief Justice presiding over the trial. I think the Senate lacks Jurisdiction and if Trump were convicted, he would likely win on appeal. Before you libtards get your panties in a bind, note that this is not an opinion on the facts on the case. Just on Jurisdiction for the Senate to hold a trial on a President after he already has left office. I make my opinion based on almost 30 years experience as a lawyer, 20 of them as a trial lawyer. What most lay people don't understand is the issue of jurisdiction. Without Jurisdiction, the facts of a case don't matter.
    I'm sure you're a good lawyer, but you're not a constitutional lawyer and you couldn't be more wrong. An impeachment and a bill of attainder are two completely different things. A bill of attainder is substituting the legislature's vote for the vote of a jury in a criminal proceeding, which the Constitution prohibits because trial for crimes must be by jury. An impeachment is explicitly not a criminal proceeding, and it relates only to removal from office and possible disqualification from holding further office. The Constitution specifically separates impeachment and criminal proceedings and states that separate criminal proceedings can be brought in addition to impeachments. Therefore the bill of attainder argument is completely inapplicable and irrelevant. If the bill of attainder clause applied here, it would render ANY impeachment impossible, including while the President remained in office.

    This is from Article I, section 3 of the Constitution:

    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
    As for the timing, it was McConnell who said there would be no proceeding before the inauguration, and he controlled the Senate at the time. It had nothing to do with Pelosi.

     
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      garrett: see we have some smart fella's here on PFA... =)
    HILLARY WON

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duped_samaritan View Post
    Seems like a pretty simple argument that one can be convicted by the Senate after leaving office:

    Impeachment results in removal from office and gives the House the power to make the impeached official ineligible to run for office. If someone can't be convicted because they're no longer in office, that would mean you could avoid the consequences of impeachment by leaving office.

    There's already precedent.


    Appeal to who? SCOTUS can't overturn an impeachment, the House has sole power to impeach, the Senate to convict. Nobody else gets to decide if someone is impeached or not. and what would retrying the case accomplish when you have the exact same jury?



    The Constitution says there is only one thing to do upon conviction -removal from office. If the Civil officer is already out of office, the matter is moot. Congress does not have th power to impeach a non-office holder. The constitution does not make a distinction for "former civil officers". This does not mean that Trump cannot be prosecuted under Criminal or Civil Law. He just can't be impeached and removed from office by Congress.

    The reason for this is clear, it gives rise to political cancel culture fascism. Imagine if Congress Impeached Jimmy Carter after he left office for his handling (or bumbling) of the Iran Hostage situation. Or if President Obama was Impeached after he left office for the Iran deal (he gave them Billions of dollars to not comply with anything). The Constitution does NOT permit this. As for the Precedent you speak of, it did not happen with a President. And even if it did, 2 wrongs don't make a right. This is something liberals have a hard time understanding, which explains their support for Affirmative Action (legalized racial preference laws that discriminate against Honkys).

    And yes, he could take the matter to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decides on what is Constitutional and what is not. This was established back in Marburry v. Madison. And again, the issue is not the facts of the case, but whether Impeachment and Removal is Constitutional. But let's not let facts get in the way of your libtard argument.
    Congress has impeached former office holders before. And it is not true that the only thing that can happen on conviction is removal. He can also be disqualified from holding any federal office in the future.

    Calling him a libtard for pointing out what it says right in the Constitution only shows that you must have skipped constitutional law when you were in law school.

    If you think the Supreme Court is going to overturn an impeachment and conviction based on Marbury v. Madison you need to go back to law school. They won't even hear the case.

     
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    HILLARY WON

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post


    Ding! Ding! Ding! Finally, someone who gets it.

    imo Donald Trump is fucked here....

    He did 100% instigate all of his followers on January 6th (with Lies LOL). And so he cant/wont run again in 4 years, I dont think this is going to go well for him. They are going for the jugular here, and they do have a case. So he doesn't/cant run again in 4 years, and imo I think its going to work. Donlad Trump is fucked here, and he did instigate that whole mess which culminated on Jan 6th, which his "Fraud" and lying bullshit. Me personally, I'm over his whole thing and I just thing for Americas sake all in all, its probably best we as a Country move forward and past this whole Donald Trump saga and drama.

    Its time to just finally and wholly close this Donald Trump chapter in American history.
    He won't be convicted because the Republicans have no principles, even their supposed "law and order," and are afraid to hold Trump accountable.
    HILLARY WON

  12. #152
    Gold Cerveza Fria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hongkonger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post




    The Constitution says there is only one thing to do upon conviction -removal from office. If the Civil officer is already out of office, the matter is moot. Congress does not have th power to impeach a non-office holder. The constitution does not make a distinction for "former civil officers". This does not mean that Trump cannot be prosecuted under Criminal or Civil Law. He just can't be impeached and removed from office by Congress.

    The reason for this is clear, it gives rise to political cancel culture fascism. Imagine if Congress Impeached Jimmy Carter after he left office for his handling (or bumbling) of the Iran Hostage situation. Or if President Obama was Impeached after he left office for the Iran deal (he gave them Billions of dollars to not comply with anything). The Constitution does NOT permit this. As for the Precedent you speak of, it did not happen with a President. And even if it did, 2 wrongs don't make a right. This is something liberals have a hard time understanding, which explains their support for Affirmative Action (legalized racial preference laws that discriminate against Honkys).

    And yes, he could take the matter to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decides on what is Constitutional and what is not. This was established back in Marburry v. Madison. And again, the issue is not the facts of the case, but whether Impeachment and Removal is Constitutional. But let's not let facts get in the way of your libtard argument.
    Congress has impeached former office holders before. And it is not true that the only thing that can happen on conviction is removal. He can also be disqualified from holding any federal office in the future.

    Calling him a libtard for pointing out what it says right in the Constitution only shows that you must have skipped constitutional law when you were in law school.

    If you think the Supreme Court is going to overturn an impeachment and conviction based on Marbury v. Madison you need to go back to law school. They won't even hear the case.
    I've already addressed your incorrect arguments in earlier posts. Not going to repeat myself to each and every Libtard that can't read. Go back and read.

  13. #153
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  14. #154
    Even if Mitch McConnell encourages his Republican Senators to find Trump guilty, they still probably won't get the 17 Republican Senators they need to convict Trump.


  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by duped_samaritan View Post


    I did not say it was unconstitutional. It's not unconstitutional. Come on now. The libtard trolling is weak, this is not about left vs right.

    I was responding to your hypothetical with another hypothetical that's no more unrealistic than having George Washington impeached.

    Should a president be able to avoid being convicted and disqualified from running for office in the future simply by resigning right before the verdict? Do you think the framers intended to give that as an option?


    That's what you're arguing.

    And we haven't even gotten to the fact that there's already precedent that shows you don't need to be in office to be Impeached and convicted by the Senate.

    That is NOT what I'm arguing. He could still be prosecuted under Civil or Criminal statutes. But, he is not subject to Impeachment. You are having a difficult time understanding the difference. Impeachment and Removal is a Political tool.

    And there is NO precedent involving a former President. And Trump didn't resign, his term was over. You are confusing facts..
    You know this, and yet you think the bill of attainder clause applies?

    HILLARY WON

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post


    imo Donald Trump is fucked here....

    He did 100% instigate all of his followers on January 6th (with Lies LOL). And so he cant/wont run again in 4 years, I dont think this is going to go well for him. They are going for the jugular here, and they do have a case. So he doesn't/cant run again in 4 years, and imo I think its going to work. Donlad Trump is fucked here, and he did instigate that whole mess which culminated on Jan 6th, which his "Fraud" and lying bullshit. Me personally, I'm over his whole thing and I just thing for Americas sake all in all, its probably best we as a Country move forward and past this whole Donald Trump saga and drama.

    Its time to just finally and wholly close this Donald Trump chapter in American history.
    If Donald Trump and his supporters pull out of the republican party....then the republican party will be reduced to a third place party barely getting 17% of the vote in state and federal elections. Thats the reality of the situation. Idiots like Romney, Sasse, Murkowski, will destroy the republican party if they get their way.
    Proving my point exactly. Most Republicans have no morals. They'd rather let a violent attempt to overthrow the government pass without consequences than hold Trump accountable. You've all lost your right to complain about the rioters.
    HILLARY WON

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by garrett View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Where do you put the odds of the senate getting 67 votes to convict him? I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum willing to gamble with you on whether they get the 67 votes.

    O.K more Semantics from you MAGA-Tards.

    Honestly end of the day I think it's game over for Donald Trump here. And let's say you are correct, and he doesn't get impeached here for a second time. You really think the GOP abd Republicans actually will get behind this total mess that is Donald Trump. You cant win an actual Political Office, without the GOP behind you and even if he skirts this LOL if you think the GOP is going to get behind him, they will not. So again leaving Semantics out of this IMO it's game over for Donald Trump. And for us as a whole and this Country I do love. I think it is in our best interest that we as a Country now move on, past this ridiculous in ways, Donald Trump era....

    Its just time we al move on now, he wasn't that great either. A delusional power-mongerer, blowhard, and me personally im so over him (or this all) honestly...
    Game over in what sense, you think he'll be convicted? I'd love to see it but the chance of that is a zero point zero.

     
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      garrett: He has now fragmented the entire GOP one way or another after this all, and I dont think they put money behind him in 2024, or will minimally....
    HILLARY WON

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheXFactor View Post
    Even if Mitch McConnell encourages his Republican Senators to find Trump guilty, they still probably won't get the 17 Republican Senators they need to convict Trump.

    [

    Finally, someone who understands simple math.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hongkonger View Post

    Congress has impeached former office holders before. And it is not true that the only thing that can happen on conviction is removal. He can also be disqualified from holding any federal office in the future.

    Calling him a libtard for pointing out what it says right in the Constitution only shows that you must have skipped constitutional law when you were in law school.

    If you think the Supreme Court is going to overturn an impeachment and conviction based on Marbury v. Madison you need to go back to law school. They won't even hear the case.
    I've already addressed your incorrect arguments in earlier posts. Not going to repeat myself to each and every Libtard that can't read. Go back and read.
    This "libtard" happens to have taught Constitutional Law and Federal Jurisdiction. And you are the idiot here.

     
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      garrett: zing.. (LOL)
      
      Cerveza Fria: Resorts to name calling when losing argument
      
      gimmick: Resorts to name calling when losing argument
      
      nunbeater: lol site is filled with 'em
    HILLARY WON

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by TheXFactor View Post
    Even if Mitch McConnell encourages his Republican Senators to find Trump guilty, they still probably won't get the 17 Republican Senators they need to convict Trump.

    GA is investigating him for election tampering. NY is investigating him for all kinds of fraud and financial crimes. He'll be fucked at the state level, not through impeachment.
    HILLARY WON

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