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Thread: GG Poker facing huge backlash after seizure of $130k from pro, as well as stories that they ban winning players

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    GG Poker facing huge backlash after seizure of $130k from pro, as well as stories that they ban winning players

    When is WSOP going to learn that they need to stop with these "strategic partnerships" with companies which tarnish their brand?

    There was the "World Series of Poker School of Poker" which turned out to be a scam.

    There was (and still is) the partnership with Kings Casino, owned by Leon Tsoukernik. He was accused of ripping off high stakes players for millions, as a result of being a sore loser.

    While embarrassing, at least these were not attached to the main brand of the WSOP -- the bracelet events. Those were always run and managed in-house, and therefore the WSOP has maintained a high amount of respect and prestige over the 16 years it has been owned by Caesars.

    However, WSOP decided to license their bracelets out to an untested third party -- GG Poker -- to run their non-US online bracelet events in 2020. This was a pure money grab. The WSOP sold it as giving a way for international players to compete for bracelets (since they're unlikely to travel to Nevada or New Jersey just to play the online bracelet events on wsop.com). However, make no mistake, this was about the almighty dollar.

    Not surprisingly, it's been an embarrassment. There were bracelet events for $50 and $100. There have been bad technical problems after the site was woefully unprepared for potential DDoS attacks, and tournaments had to be halted and continued days later.

    But there was always one huge issue hanging over GG Poker, which would have been easy to find if WSOP did their research. They ban winning players from their site, unless these players adhere to a ridiculously strict set of rules regarding play patterns.

    Back in April, I raised issue about a player named STINKYBLUFF who was banned for "bumhunting" from PokerOK, a GGPoker skin. He attempted to sign up to GGPoker instead, believing that was okay. They confiscated all of his money -- both his cashout from PokerOK and his GGPoker deposit!

    While it's easy to claim that bumhunters are predatory assholes and deserve such bans, a closer look reveals that GGPoker's definition of bumhuning is overly strict, and also too arbitrary.

    They define being a bumhunter as one who sits only when fish sit. Okay? But what's a fish? Serious question. If you are the 9th best player in the world, and sit with the 1st through 8th best players, you're the fish. If you're the 9th worst player in the world, and sit with the worst 8 in the world, you're the shark. The term "fish" is relative. Similarly, I would be a tremendous basketball talent if put on the court with a bunch of 10-year-olds, whereas an NBA "12th man" is the weak link of his team. In games of skill, "good" and "bad" are not absolute -- they are relative according to the level of competition you're facing.

    This is important because GG can ban anyone at any time for supposedly "playing only when a fish is there". Are they trying to claim that you're only allowed to sit with players better than you?

    Anyway, this is a really bad look for a site which partners with the WSOP, which is all about pro worship and bracelet chasing.

    But it gets worse. Recall the story I linked above was about a guy getting his money confiscated because he was banned from one skin for bumhunting, then signed up for GG Poker and got banned again, with the money confiscated in both places.

    It's happened again. For some reason GG Poker got away with it in April with relatively little controversy (I was one of the few to cover it). However, the incident now has gotten everyone's attention, especially because high-profile social media figures like Chicago Joey have jumped on it.

    More next post...

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    On August 10, a German poster known as "duddi7" (real name Tobias Duthweiler) showed up on 2+2, and posted the following accusation against GG Poker:

    Quote Originally Posted by duddi7
    My name is Tobias - AKA dudd1 on Pokerstars, moneybyebye on America's Cardroom, and Ben ABC on GG-Poker. I want to share a recent experience that I had with GG-Poker.

    I'm a high-stakes player from Germany, currently living in Austria, and have been around the mid/high-stakes scene for quite some time now. I've played on pretty much all the sites out there, for years now, and until now have never had any problems with any of them.

    Recently, GG-Poker decided to confiscate my site balance. I think the confiscation is entirely disproportionate on their end, so I've decided to make this post, in order to:
    - Get a public and fair opinion on the case; and
    - Make everybody - especially other high-stakes regs - aware of what can happen to your
    balance on GG-Poker

    The total amount of my balance there is around $180,000 USD.

    So what happened? We'll have to go back in time a bit to puzzle all the pieces together.

    In 2016, I deposited a small amount on Natural8, and played NL400-NL1k for around a week or two. I won around 3-5k in the first couple of days. (I can't check the exact time frame or amount won anymore, since they deleted my account, and it's been 4 years - but it's somewhere around these numbers.)

    After the first few sessions, with no warning, Natural8 told me to take my money and not play on their network anymore. These days GG-Poker always gives a warning to players before banning them. They said that if I came back to play there, they would proceed with their "security protocol", whatever that meant - I asked, but they wouldn't give me a clear statement on either what they meant by that, or what I'd done wrong.

    Fast forward to the year 2019:

    GG-Poker had grown to be one of the bigger networks around, so I decided to give it a shot. I didn't know that 2016 Natural8 and 2019 GG-Poker were the same network, nor did I really even remember the 2016 incident at this point. 3 years later, I'd forgotten all about it.

    In 2019 I created an account on a GG-Poker skin called Bestpoker, under the Nickname "TheViolence". (At this point I'm wondering: if I was joining a network from which I'd been banned, why was I able to not only create, but to fully verify an account, using the exact same personal data I had previously used?)

    So I played NL5k-NL40k on Bestpoker in 2019. During that time I was raking an insane amount, and was losing around 85k. At some point, Bestpoker decided to remove the high-stakes tables, so I was forced to change skins.

    At the start of 2020 I moved to Betkings, created the account "ElBernardo" using the same data I had always used, and played there for maybe half-a-month before all the skins from the network fused to one skin, "GG". At the time, I was still losing on that account.

    When the fuse happened, I changed my affiliate, and from then on played as "Ben ABC" on GG-Poker itself. At this point I'd like to mention that all former accounts got deleted after the fuse, before I got my "real" GG account. All of this was in agreement with both my affiliate and a representative from GG-Poker; again, all of this is clearly within the rules and TOS of GG-Poker. I was never trying to hide my identity nor was I trying to get any advantage from changing nicknames.

    You might be thinking: "Wow, this guy had 3 different accounts!" To be clear, this only has to do with the different skins and the aforementioned merger. (Ask around if you know people playing on GG, as I'm sure a lot of them are familiar with this event.)

    At this point, things start to become interesting. Again, I was able to fully verify my account, and had no problems depositing a big sum ($50,000 USD). I played for a while on the account, still losing, until around the weekend of May 29th. At this point I've paid tens of thousands of dollars worth of rake, and I'm stuck big time on the site.

    Finally, around the end of May, I spun up my roll from 30k to 180k within a period of about one-and-a-half weeks.

    Then GG forced their high-stakes players to change to their real name, instead of a nickname. So I was doing the verification yet again (recall that they already had all of my data: ID, phone bill, etc) when my account suddenly got locked. I had no idea what was going on until a few days later, when I got an email telling me that my funds had been confiscated, because I wasn't allowed to play on GG-Poker in the first place.

    So if I wasn't allowed to play on GG-Poker, how is it possible to play there for over a year? Don't they check the accounts being created on their network? Have they just been waiting until I finally had enough money in my account to make it worthwhile for them to keep it? If I would've kept losing, would I still be able to play on GG-Poker?

    There are a lot of questions - that I suspect I know the answers to.

    I'm currently texting back and forth with the security team from GG-Poker, trying to understand what's happening, and why I was able to pump money into their system for 1.5 years even though I was supposedly banned.

    After some back and forth they finally said they would allow me to take my deposit back, but would not pay out what I'd won. Again, the money I won was won 100% fairly: I never hid my identity; there was nothing to cause an unfair advantage over anybody; most of the other high-stakes players were aware of who I was, since I play across all sites and it's not very hard to find out who I am.

    So why does GG offer to give me back the deposit, but not my winnings? By giving back the deposit, they've essentially admitted that I didn't win in an unfair way. Apparently, they've just decided to take a cheap shot at my money.

    In my opinion, it's easy to see why I'd think the confiscation of such a large sum is disproportionate (especially after losing a lot of my own money to GG players, and to the system), but I'm obviously biased because for me, personally, there's a huge sum on the line.

    So I decided to talk to other high-stakes players that I know well, and ask them about their opinion on this. The responses I got were all in agreement with me - it seems very obvious that I got free-rolled here, and that it's almost a scam by GG-Poker, from an ethical point of view.

    It would be much different if they told me in 2019, after a day, or maybe a few days, that I wasn't allowed to play and that they'd have to return my deposit. But letting me play for such an extended time as 1.5 years, while losing, and then not paying me when I'm winning fairly, makes me wonder about two things:

    - Either GG-Poker really didn't realize I was banned for this entire period of time, and thus their security-system is the worst on the market; or
    - I just got free-rolled for 1.5 years, good to them for only as long as I kept putting money into this highly questionable system.

    Please feel free to decide which one you think is more likely.

    All in all, I just feel very sad about the decision GG-Poker has made here. I think their decision is far too harsh. Especially when I think the fault lies mainly with their security team.

    I don't know if they're technically within their rights with what they're doing to me, but I'd think that after free-rolling me all this time, it should only take a little bit of ethical consideration on their part to come to a more sympathetic decision.

    Now, you might think here: "Well, dudd1 is just stupid for not knowing he's not allowed to play on the site!" That's one way to think about it, and that's okay. But in the current high-stakes climate, especially with all the new modern troubles out there, I think I am, and have always striven to be, a very fair player. I would never try to get any unfair advantage over anybody else, and I'm sure there are a lot of well-known and respected players throughout the poker community that would be happy to vouch for my integrity, if it comes to that.

    I don't know if this situation will ever be resolved to my satisfaction. But I wanted to post this in order to at the very least raise awareness, and to remind all of you to keep an eye out for all the things out there that can happen to you and your money.

    I hope nobody else has to go through what I'm going through right now. If this post will help prevent some of you out there from having trouble like this, I consider it time well spent.


    Kind Regards,
    Tobias/dudd1
    Source: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...layer-1775624/



    Basically Tobias created an account in 2016 on Natural8, which was a GG Poker skin, and he got quickly banned for being a winning player (or perhaps bumhunting).

    He then created an account on a different skin in 2019 called "Bestpoker", which is also on the GG Poker network. He claims he didn't realize they were on the same network, which I think is likely BS.

    Anyway, Bestpoker let him play for the next year or so, but he did poorly, losing about $85k while raking a ton. Bestpoker then removed its high stakes tables (unrelated to anything with him), so he quit that site and moved over to another GG Poker skin called Betkings.

    However, two weeks later, Betkings was merged into GG Poker. He decided to "switch affiliates" (not sure why) and signed up for GG Poker directly, under a 4th account. This was in "early 2020".

    It's important to note that having 4 different accounts on the GG Network is ALLOWED by their rules, as long as they're all on different skins. So there's no issue there.

    However, the issue came from the fact that he was originally banned from the first one in 2016 -- Natural8. He ran up his $50k deposit on GG to $180k, and now was just informed that he was violating their terms of service by playing after the Natural8 ban, and they are confiscating all of his money.




    He says that he used his own name on all four accounts (though it's now being said that he used slightly different versions of the same name each time).

    He is accusing GG of freerolling him, since they let him play for about 18 months under his own name when he was losing, but only shut him down when he was up $130k on the main GG site.

    He did get his recent $50k deposit back, leaving him out his $130k in winnings. GG Poker supposedly distributed that $130k among other players who had lost it to him, but oddly no pros who played him since May (when he started winning) have said they got refunds. Hmmm....

    I'll post my analysis in the next message.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Before I get into how I feel, I'll break down what the pro-Tobias and anti-Tobias factions on 2+2 think.


    Points raised by those on GG Poker's side:

    - It is highly unlikely that an experienced pro like Tobias didn't know that Natrual8 and GG Poker were on the same network.

    - Tobias knowingly circumvented a longstanding ban from the network, and thus knew the risks when he attempted to do so.

    - Tobias has a reputation for being an unrepentant German bumhunter, and is seen by some as exactly the type of player which ruined online poker and caused sites like GG to create these draconian rules against game selection.

    - The slight differences in his name on these different sites is proof that he knew he was trying to circumvent being detected by automated software, while maintaining plausible deniability.



    Points raised by those on Tobias' side:

    - He played under his own name the entire time, and nobody stopped him for nearly 18 months while he was losing. Thus, either security was super incompetent or they knowingly freerolled him.

    - Even if it's supposedly "obvious" in some cases, players should not be required to keep track of the ever-changing network affiliation of the myriad of sites out there. Since Tobias was banned 4 years ago on Natural8, but never banned from GG Poker, at the very least they should give him the benefit of the doubt and return his money.

    - This entire thing is basically a war on winning players. If GG Poker is going to run WSOP bracelet events, they shouldn't be banning people for being winning players and being unwilling to play high stakes in bad games.

    - While a ban would be okay, confiscating his winning in such a situation is horrible. Given the gray areas in the situation, at worst they should let him cash out and ban him after that.



    How do I feel? Somewhat in the middle, but closer to Tobias' side. My feelings:

    1) There's zero point zero chance he didn't realize Natural8 was on the GG Network. He was very aware the whole time that he was circumventing the ban.

    2) There is no justification to take his money here, given that his story DOES have plausible deniability. Confiscation of funds should only take place when provably bad actions have taken place.

    3) I would agree with a ban here, since he knew what he was doing, but only after paying him. However, I really don't like the draconian rules they have in place regarding the behaviors winning players must adhere to. Go look at the other PFA thread I linked about STINKYBLUFF and you'll see the outrageous requirements they have for pros to adhere to their "no bumhunting" rules.

    4) WSOP should not be partnering with a company like this. WSOP does not ban pros for any reason besides cheating or circumventing location requirements. While GG can conduct their business how they want, WSOP should NOT be partnering with a company hostile against pokers pros, as this is literally the opposite of their brand. Remember, WSOP has largely promoted their brand for years by highlighting the accomplishments and ever-presence of big name pros, whereas GG wants a site of mostly recreational players. WSOP needs to do better research regarding companies to which they license their name, and especially needs to run all WSOP bracelet events in house.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Current GG Poker pro Fedor Holz did his best Daniel Negreanu shilling impression, and said the following:

    https://twitter.com/CrownUpGuy/status/1293304446030577669

    https://twitter.com/CrownUpGuy/status/1293304450556231682

    https://twitter.com/CrownUpGuy/status/1293304453966200832



    He then took a beating on Twitter, and came back with this:

    https://twitter.com/CrownUpGuy/status/1293919932984377344


    From what I've seen, Negreanu has been silent on this one.

    As a whole, the poker pro community is very much on Tobias' side, and hates the whole idea of GG Poker banning winning players, using bumhunting as an excuse to do so.

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    Bronze BaccaratDegen's Avatar
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    Big mess up on not having all the right info from sister company on who is banned. Seems like this is a right step in protecting the losing players(high stakes). GG did the right thing by giving the 50k deposit back and showing they wont pay out shit to any of the players who have been banned before.

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    Gold 4BET's Avatar
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    DN of course is defending GG, What a joke this guy signed up under his real name, So simple auto computer scan upon sign up would show he was banned, This was a obviously free roll for the site, He wires 50,000 to the site, They knew he was banned then but let’s see what happens with the 50k before saying anything = Free Roll=Site is a joke
    -Allergic to the struggle

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4BET View Post
    DN of course is defending GG, What a joke this guy signed up under his real name, So simple auto computer scan upon sign up would show he was banned, This was a obviously free roll for the site, He wires 50,000 to the site, They knew he was banned then but let’s see what happens with the 50k before saying anything = Free Roll=Site is a joke
    Can you direct me to the tweets where DN is defending them?

    BTW, I think it really is plausible that GG's security sucks so bad that his slightly morphed name fooled them for 18 months. Not defending them taking his money though, that's totally outrageous.

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    Gold 4BET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 4BET View Post
    DN of course is defending GG, What a joke this guy signed up under his real name, So simple auto computer scan upon sign up would show he was banned, This was a obviously free roll for the site, He wires 50,000 to the site, They knew he was banned then but let’s see what happens with the 50k before saying anything = Free Roll=Site is a joke
    Can you direct me to the tweets where DN is defending them?

    BTW, I think it really is plausible that GG's security sucks so bad that his slightly morphed name fooled them for 18 months. Not defending them taking his money though, that's totally outrageous.
    On his podcast
    -Allergic to the struggle

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    Gold 4BET's Avatar
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    DN lays out a what seems to be reasonable explanation to why they took the cash, The issue to me is the freerolling part
    -Allergic to the struggle

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Here's the statement from GGPoker:

    We acknowledge that this case became complicated as the player signed up on multiple skins, where the GGNetwork security team does not have access to personal information including email addresses. Therefore, our security detection was limited to IPs and Mac Addresses when it comes to detecting trespassers. We will enhance our system so that we can request email addresses and personal information from our Licensee Operators.

    We also acknowledge that our P2P transfer was too easy for the players. We have already removed P2P transfer for our UK customers and will be placing a strict KYC verification process and limits for all future P2P transfer.

    We have already shown our good will with a gesture to the player by returning the funds he has received from his friends. All of his winnings have been re-distributed to the affected players.

    We would like to apologize for the concerns that were brought up by this incident and will make sure that our security measures are more tight.

    Here's a good article explaining the situation from Pokernews: https://www.pokernews.com/news/2020/...ersy-37789.htm

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Here's the DAT Poker Podcast where Daniel comments:

    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...EegQIChAE&ep=6


    Topic begins at 25 minute mark, Daniel comments starting at the 34 minute mark.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Also, if you read GG's statement, it's laughable that they didn't have access to any of the player info of the skins of their own network.



    That means anyone caught botting or colluding on other skins could still be playing on GG.

    Terrible.

    I do believe their story, though. They still shouldn't have confiscated the money.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Notice they bury the very subjective "bumhunt" in the description of the "Bad Pro".

    As I've mentioned this before, this gives them license to ban anyone for any reason, and call it "bumhunting". The big problem is that basic game selection could be called "bumhunting", and in fact it looks like that's the justification GGPoker has used to ban some winners and confiscate their funds.

    Sadly, some morons on social media are falling for this, and applauding GG.

    It's also not clear if you will get your funds confiscated if you were previously banned, allowed back, and then are accused of being a "bad pro". I'm guessing the answer is yes, which is disturbing.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Galfond, who wishes he had GGPoker's trafffic (they serve basically the same market), is coming hard at them.

    He's not wrong, though.

    https://twitter.com/PhilGalfond/status/1297368806155640832

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    Platinum FRANKRIZZO's Avatar
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    Ironic gg freeroled him , and he knew he was playing on banned network should pay him his monies. Loled at their good pro bad pro rubbish. Bodog /bovada best option because they even state we don't care who wins we get our rake.If gg wants even playing field get rid of solving programs and huds. gg coveted players are those that transfer same money back and forth and just rake. Lol at fedor
    Last edited by FRANKRIZZO; 08-23-2020 at 08:24 AM.

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