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Thread: Infamous alt-right zealots like Noam Chomsky, Salman Rushdie, Margaret Atwood, and J.K. Rowling are calling out cancel culture and demanding it stops

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    Infamous alt-right zealots like Noam Chomsky, Salman Rushdie, Margaret Atwood, and J.K. Rowling are calling out cancel culture and demanding it stops

    A number of famous liberals such as Noam Chomsky, Salman Rushdie, J.K. Rowling, and Margarat Atwood were among 100 left-leaning intellectuals putting forth a scathing editorial against modern cancel culture.

    You know... that cancel culture which several PFA leftists say doesn't really exist, or they claim is being exaggerated by Fox News.

    Basically some mature, sensible, life-experienced liberals are horrified that the woke left has hijacked their party and movement. They're highly frustrated to see that an increasing number of Democrats believe that censorship and punishment of non-believers is a healthy way to run a democracy.


    Our cultural institutions are facing a moment of trial. Powerful protests for racial and social justice are leading to overdue demands for police reform, along with wider calls for greater equality and inclusion across our society, not least in higher education, journalism, philanthropy, and the arts. But this needed reckoning has also intensified a new set of moral attitudes and political commitments that tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of differences in favor of ideological conformity. As we applaud the first development, we also raise our voices against the second. The forces of illiberalism are gaining strength throughout the world and have a powerful ally in Donald Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy. But resistance must not be allowed to harden into its own brand of dogma or coercion—which right-wing demagogues are already exploiting. The democratic inclusion we want can be achieved only if we speak out against the intolerant climate that has set in on all sides.

    The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a liberal society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have come to expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is now all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought. More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result has been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without the threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in greater risk aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear for their livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack sufficient zeal in agreement.

    This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital causes of our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The way to defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by trying to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice between justice and freedom, which cannot exist without each other. As writers we need a culture that leaves us room for experimentation, risk taking, and even mistakes. We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith disagreement without dire professional consequences. If we won’t defend the very thing on which our work depends, we shouldn’t expect the public or the state to defend it for us.
    https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

    You can see the list of 100 names at the link above.

     
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      splitthis: Fuck them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    A number of famous liberals such as Noam Chomsky, Salman Rushdie, J.K. Rowling, and Margarat Atwood were among 100 left-leaning intellectuals putting forth a scathing editorial against modern cancel culture.

    You know... that cancel culture which several PFA leftists say doesn't really exist, or they claim is being exaggerated by Fox News.

    Basically some mature, sensible, life-experienced liberals are horrified that the woke left has hijacked their party and movement. They're highly frustrated to see that an increasing number of Democrats believe that censorship and punishment of non-believers is a healthy way to run a democracy.


    Our cultural institutions are facing a moment of trial. Powerful protests for racial and social justice are leading to overdue demands for police reform, along with wider calls for greater equality and inclusion across our society, not least in higher education, journalism, philanthropy, and the arts. But this needed reckoning has also intensified a new set of moral attitudes and political commitments that tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of differences in favor of ideological conformity. As we applaud the first development, we also raise our voices against the second. The forces of illiberalism are gaining strength throughout the world and have a powerful ally in Donald Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy. But resistance must not be allowed to harden into its own brand of dogma or coercion—which right-wing demagogues are already exploiting. The democratic inclusion we want can be achieved only if we speak out against the intolerant climate that has set in on all sides.

    The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a liberal society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have come to expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is now all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought. More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result has been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without the threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in greater risk aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear for their livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack sufficient zeal in agreement.

    This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital causes of our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The way to defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by trying to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice between justice and freedom, which cannot exist without each other. As writers we need a culture that leaves us room for experimentation, risk taking, and even mistakes. We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith disagreement without dire professional consequences. If we won’t defend the very thing on which our work depends, we shouldn’t expect the public or the state to defend it for us.
    https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

    You can see the list of 100 names at the link above.
    I cannot stress how strongly I agree with what they wrote.

    Druff, since you are happy to see this statement made and apparently approve of those who made it, I'm sure you also agree with what they said about Trump, that he is the mirror image but the equal of the left's cancel culture and that he is a serious threat to democracy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Basically some mature, sensible, life-experienced liberals are horrified that the woke left has hijacked their party and movement.
    No they just have the exactly same opinion on the issue as they've had for decades. I believe those are called principles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Basically some mature, sensible, life-experienced liberals are horrified that the woke left has hijacked their party and movement.
    No they just have the exactly same opinion on the issue as they've had for decades. I believe those are called principles.
    Okay?

    When did I say that they've changed their opinion? The people who signed this editorial have indeed been (mostly) constant in their thinking, but the new part is that they are frustrated with those in their own party engaging in cancel censorship.

    Unfortunately if you take a look at the list of names, these are mostly older people. There's a big problem with left-wingers under 40 embracing the cancel culture as a good thing, because they have lost sight of the value of free speech and expression. A shocking few within the Democratic Party are calling them out for this, or objecting to what's been happening.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    There is some hypocrisy involved here, though.

    Bari Weiss and David Brooks of the NY Times signed the letter, despite canceling one of their own employees for publishing the Tom Cotton editorial.

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    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
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    the inclusion of rowling is so problematic in this initiative, despite the fact that i fundamentally agree with her stance on emotional gender assignment superseding physical gender assignment.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Also get a load of this trans woman who is mad about a Vox co-worker signing the letter:

    https://twitter.com/emilyvdw/status/1280580388495097856

    "I don't want anything to happen to Matt for this, even though I'm publicly posting this letter and shaming him for being transphobic. Please, don't fire him. That would be really, really bad if you fired Matt for being such an insensitive transphobe who is making everyone's life tougher."

     
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      The Shrink: wowsers

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    the inclusion of rowling is so problematic in this initiative, despite the fact that i fundamentally agree with her stance on emotional gender assignment superseding physical gender assignment.
    If you agree with her, why does her inclusion bother you?

     
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      gimmick: baggage, optics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    No they just have the exactly same opinion on the issue as they've had for decades. I believe those are called principles.
    Okay?

    When did I say that they've changed their opinion? The people who signed this editorial have indeed been (mostly) constant in their thinking, but the new part is that they are frustrated with those in their own party engaging in cancel censorship.

    Unfortunately if you take a look at the list of names, these are mostly older people. There's a big problem with left-wingers under 40 embracing the cancel culture as a good thing, because they have lost sight of the value of free speech and expression. A shocking few within the Democratic Party are calling them out for this, or objecting to what's been happening.
    Maybe your conclusion that i quoted. Nothing indicates that they are horrified by the current left. They just call BS when they see it. Like many of them have for all their lives. Few of the names have also had their bouts with consequences out of saying stupid shit. Few have had their books burned.

    They literally mention radical right. The opposite of that isn't left. The opposite of that isn't even everyone on the left under 40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    the inclusion of rowling is so problematic in this initiative, despite the fact that i fundamentally agree with her stance on emotional gender assignment superseding physical gender assignment.
    If you agree with her, why does her inclusion bother you?

    its interesting that you would assume im bothered by it. i dont really have a personal stake in this. i was commenting that its going to emotionally charge the dialog around the apparent cause. chomsky, rushdie, atwood are regarded as intellectuals and generally well informed and well grounded. rowling is perceived as being on the 'wrong side' of this issue aka transphobic so shes a bit of a poison pill here.

    but yeah bothered i am not, if anything im in favor of it because it brings us that much closer to dish being legally required to suck trannie dicks on ticktoc as part of his state mandated psychological re-education course.

     
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      The Shrink: exactly
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Far as i see the current generation of radical left is the softest and least radical generation in my life time. That's why i don't take most mentions of them too seriously.

    Oh the horrors of angrily worded letters. Voting with you wallet when it's convenient and every other form of slacktivism. Never having any skin in the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Far as i see the current generation of radical left is the softest and least radical generation in my life time. That's why i don't take most mentions of them too seriously.

    Oh the horrors of angrily worded letters. Voting with you wallet when it's convenient and every other form of slacktivism. Never having any skin in the game.

    in fairness, i think the assertion that the left champions science while also supporting emotion driven campaigns that undermine science is wholly legitimate.

    like thats a legitimate beef. if someone showed me papers saying it was a russian psyop, id say its likely the single most effective russian psyop in history.

     
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      nightmarefish:
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    jk rowling is like an actual milf imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    There is some hypocrisy involved here, though.

    Bari Weiss and David Brooks of the NY Times signed the letter, despite canceling one of their own employees for publishing the Tom Cotton editorial.
    Did they do the firing or did the Times?

    Btw Bari Weiss is sneaky fuckable.

    SOBCHAK SECURITY 213-799-7798

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
    jk rowling is like an actual milf imo.

    id absolutely smash but mostly id be like i cant wait to tell my friends about this.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Druff, I think your adjectives in the title and OP are a little strong. I don't really see any scathing rebuke or demands. It seems they just have some concerns they are laying out where this all goes.

     
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      Kuntmissioner: that's all

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Far as i see the current generation of radical left is the softest and least radical generation in my life time. That's why i don't take most mentions of them too seriously.

    Oh the horrors of angrily worded letters. Voting with you wallet when it's convenient and every other form of slacktivism. Never having any skin in the game.

    in fairness, i think the assertion that the left champions science while also supporting emotion driven campaigns that undermine science is wholly legitimate.

    like thats a legitimate beef. if someone showed me papers saying it was a russian psyop, id say its likely the single most effective russian psyop in history.
    They have their share of fotm issues. I've yet to see any of them trump the issues of donators when it comes to actual national policy though. Almost none of it's dogma. There's few traditional issues where science isn't a part of such as abortion. I don't know what part science could play in it. I also think we're maybe 2 generations away from governments paying for abortion/sterilization. And the slightly less civil rights oriented governments mandating it.

    Then there's the part are we talking about the American left/right or Global. You only have centrist and right wing economic representation. Most of the social issues of your left are cosigned by the Western European right. The large scale ones. Social security, healthcare and unions to a degree first come to mind. Such as funding NHS was a campaign point for Brexit.

    There's also certain emotionally driven causes that also have a base in science. Criminal justice system, human rights and social security. The only true emotional part is do you want to like in healthier, safer and fairer society or are you fine living in gated communities surrounded by the 3rd world. Traditionally Americans have been willing to gamble for the spot in gated communities. It's a worse gamble every year and wasn't that great to begin with.

    Meh, one those Hamptons not being a defensible position coming to fruition in our life time.

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    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post


    in fairness, i think the assertion that the left champions science while also supporting emotion driven campaigns that undermine science is wholly legitimate.

    like thats a legitimate beef. if someone showed me papers saying it was a russian psyop, id say its likely the single most effective russian psyop in history.
    They have their share of fotm issues. I've yet to see any of them trump the issues of donators when it comes to actual national policy though. Almost none of it's dogma. There's few traditional issues where science isn't a part of such as abortion. I don't know what part science could play in it. I also think we're maybe 2 generations away from governments paying for abortion/sterilization. And the slightly less civil rights oriented governments mandating it.

    Then there's the part are we talking about the American left/right or Global. You only have centrist and right wing economic representation. Most of the social issues of your left are cosigned by the Western European right. The large scale ones. Social security, healthcare and unions to a degree first come to mind. Such as funding NHS was a campaign point for Brexit.

    There's also certain emotionally driven causes that also have a base in science. Criminal justice system, human rights and social security. The only true emotional part is do you want to like in healthier, safer and fairer society or are you fine living in gated communities surrounded by the 3rd world. Traditionally Americans have been willing to gamble for the spot in gated communities. It's a worse gamble every year and wasn't that great to begin with.

    Meh, one those Hamptons not being a defensible position coming to fruition in our life time.

    this of course is a much more informed, broader spectrum perspective than the one i was presenting. im just endlessly fascinated and equal parts horrified by my political factions inability to reconcile its mixed messages on this issue.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Diamond dwai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Also get a load of this trans woman who is mad about a Vox co-worker signing the letter:

    https://twitter.com/emilyvdw/status/1280580388495097856

    "I don't want anything to happen to Matt for this, even though I'm publicly posting this letter and shaming him for being transphobic. Please, don't fire him. That would be really, really bad if you fired Matt for being such an insensitive transphobe who is making everyone's life tougher."
    lol stupid trans woman getting called out in replies

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