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Thread: Stubhub outright stealing from customers in 36 states with cancelled event refund policy

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Stubhub outright stealing from customers in 36 states with cancelled event refund policy

    This isn't getting enough press. We had an extensive discussion on radio about this (including an experienced ticket broker who called in), but otherwise it's not being talked about very much.

    Stubhub was, for a long time, a mostly reputable company with a good reputation. It was actually owned by eBay for awhile, which then sold it in November 2019 for about $4 billion. The new owner, Viagogo, was smaller than eBay, and some even wondered where they were getting the money for this cash sale.

    Now it seems that Viagogo is indeed cash poor, and is screwing customers cruise line style (but even worse).

    Here's an e-mail I received today, which tells most of the story (bolding is mine):

    Dear Todd,

    The last few weeks have transformed all of our lives in ways we could never have imagined. I wanted to take a moment to share some of the actions we’ve taken as a company in support of our customers, our partners and employees. We’ve spent 20 years bringing the joy of live to buyers and sellers worldwide; we are now doing our best to navigate an unprecedented situation for all. Our commitment is to continue to communicate with you regularly on the actions we are taking during this very difficult period, until the live event industry can resume as normal. Thank you for the patience and trust you have shown so far.


    Our Updated Buyer and Seller Policies

    In the US alone, more than 23,000 events have been canceled, postponed or rescheduled in the past three weeks and we expect to see many more. Effectively overnight, the live event industry has come to a standstill – for fans, sellers, teams, leagues, artists, venues, and other supporting businesses.

    We’ve worked hard to create a platform that serves both buyers and sellers as a trusted marketplace. As a convenience to buyers, acting as an intermediary, we’ve historically made the decision to refund them before collecting money from the seller. We’ve also historically offered sellers more convenience by paying them for ticket sales on our platform before events actually happen. Under normal circumstances, these processes are manageable.

    Given the impact of the coronavirus, it is not possible to sustain this practice in the near-term. We are facing significant timing delays in recouping funds from the thousands of sellers on our platform, and expect these challenges to continue in the coming months. At the same time, buyers expect immediate refunds. As a result, we’ve enacted new policies in the US and Canada that we believe are clear and fan-first.


    Buyer Policies

    We understand fans are disappointed and concerned by these large-scale event cancellations. We were the first in our industry to begin offering customers 120% credit for the canceled purchases as a thank you for remaining patient in a very challenging period. In the first two weeks of offering this option, approximately 70% of customers opted to receive this additional future value. Recently, we announced this as our standard policy for canceled events, with refunds available in jurisdictions where they are required. Coupons can be applied to one or multiple StubHub orders in the same currency. If your order is less than your coupon value, you can use the remainder on another event.


    Seller Policies

    Meanwhile, sellers on our platform also face challenges. Music and sports fans, season ticket holders, and business sellers are unclear if teams and primary ticketing companies are providing credits or refunds for the tickets they had previously bought and subsequently sold on StubHub. We are working with the thousands of sellers across our platform to understand options and timing for repayment to us for tickets of canceled events. We’ve also updated our seller policies going forward to manage future risk. You can read more about our updated policies here.

    Beyond our customer community, we are doing our best to keep our employees safe and manage business operations. Our first priority has been to make sure our employees are in a safe environment, with work-from-home enacted early and quickly across our multiple locations. We have also moved quickly to manage our business operations and spend in response to COVID-19. Despite these changes, our teams are continuing to serve our buyers and sellers, uninterrupted, and I’m extremely proud of their dedication and resilience.

    As a leader in our industry for over 20 years, StubHub is committed to helping those in our industry most affected by the Coronavirus. We are happy to be able to use our previously allocated StubHub Foundation funds to provide assistance of up to $125,000 to non-profit partners, including Sweet Relief, MusiCares, and Broadway Cares, which are helping impacted workers in our industries.

    We are so grateful to our community and hope that you and your loved ones are safe and healthy. We will continue to serve you as our customers and partners – today and in the future – and look forward to all being able to come together again and experience the joy of live entertainment when the time is right.


    Best,

    Sukhinder Singh Cassidy
    President, StubHub


    So basically, unless you're in one of the 14 states with tougher ticket-related consumer laws which require refunds for cancelled events (California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, Utah, and Virginia), you will get no refund!

    Instead, you will be forced to take a 120% credit, good only for 12 months.

    There's a few problems with this.

    First, even if you're in one of those 14 listed states, it's a negative checkoff scam. You need to contact them for the refund -- otherwise it quickly defaults to the 120% credit.

    Second, and more importantly, many people buy tickets on Stubhub for a one-off event, and are unlikely to use Stubhub in the next 12 months (especially THESE next 12 months, given the risks). For example, if you bought a ticket to see your favorite band in April, they may not be coming back to your city for more than a year. This leaves people with a ticket credit they won't want or need.

    Third, Stubhub prices are market-driven. They constantly fluctuate due to demand, and are set by the individual sellers. With all of these credits in people's accounts, where they will have only 12 months to use them (probably less than 12, since nothing will be going for at least a few months), this will artificially push the prices up. There will be far more demand to buy things on Stubhub since people will literally be forced to spend money on there during that time, so this "120%" credit may actually have far less value in reality.

    Why is this happening?

    Stubhub has already paid the sellers for a lot of these transactions, and in the case of smaller sellers or individuals, they may have a hard time clawing back that money. Of course, there were other events that have been cancelled over time where this was also an issue. However, often there was only a short time between the sale and the cancellation (thus the seller hasn't been paid), plus Stubhub's hefty fees (usually around 23%) allow them to eat the occasional screw job and they make out just fine overall.

    Here everything has been cancelled, and they may not be able to claw back a lot of that money they paid out.

    On March 6, Stubhub announced that full refunds were an option for everyone, but they changed their minds three weeks later, claiming on March 27 that they would only be available in those 14 states where it's required, and only by request.

    Stubhub has long-marketed itself as a company which "guarantees" the sale of all tickets, where they will always "make it right" for you if you get screwed somehow. Looks like that doesn't apply anymore.

    Brutal.

  2. #2
    Mad Neg Repper 1marley1's Avatar
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    :tldr

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    cliffs: the scalpers got screwed... except they didn’t in: Boston, NY, LA, Miami...
    No one cares

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Try some reading comprehension.

    The buyers were the ones who got screwed. Regular guys like you and I who used Stubhub to buy tickets to a game or concert, thinking they were 100% guaranteeing the purchase.

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    Mad Neg Repper 1marley1's Avatar
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    You try some comprehension... :tldr means I didn’t fucking read it.

    I have never used stub hub. Would never. They’re scalpers.

    What show are you buying tix weeks in advance for best value from stub hub?

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1marley1 View Post
    You try some comprehension... :tldr means I didn’t fucking read it.

    I have never used stub hub. Would never. They’re scalpers.

    What show are you buying tix weeks in advance for best value from stub hub?
    I didn't buy anything from them this time, so this doesn't affect me.

    Stubhub is used by both scalpers and individuals selling tickets. Even though the fees are high, they are often the best buy on the secondary market because individuals with tickets go into a panic at the last minute, knowing their tickets will be worth zero point zero once the event is over.

    That's usually the site I use to get great deals on excellent seats at baseball games, even during the playoffs.

  6. #6
    Gold Kuntmissioner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1marley1 View Post
    You try some comprehension... :tldr means I didn’t fucking read it.
    When followed by a snarky summary, as you posted, tldr implies that you DID read it.

     
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      1marley1: Eat a bag of dicks
      
      Dan Druff: offset

  7. #7
    Wow, what a genius decision it was for EBay to sell Stubhub for $4 Billion last year.

    It’s just another company that will be worth zero dollars real soon.

    Who the fuck is going to concerts anytime soon? Nobody.

    Some of these musicians used to make a $1 million or more per performance.

    Those days are over.

    LOL at these guys performing on social media from their home.

    The future of concerts is apparently singing on Twitch begging for money.

    Time for these motherfuckers to sell their homes, cars, jewelry and anything else of value because it is over.

    Ken Scalir will just have to stay home and masterbate to old videos.

    Last edited by TheXFactor; 03-31-2020 at 09:19 AM.

  8. #8
    This is a concert venue I go to regularly, and have purchased 3 tickets to shows that were "postponed"/cancelled. Semantics really.

    Here is there response to receiving refunds.


    To our patrons and community,

    As we all confront the ongoing COVID-19 crisis, we hold hope as New York unites in its collective effort to flatten the curve. As each among us takes the right steps—stay-at-home and socially-distancing—we do our parts to stem the tide and help our city through an incredibly trying time.

    Until we reach this goal, we also confront profound changes in our routines, activities and everyday lives. Amidst our new reality, we grapple with feelings of uncertainty, loneliness and worry - and we face these challenges without many of the personal interactions, connections and activities that we normally rely upon to help get us through. But here remains a constant source of strength, inspiration, a sort of fuel to propel us through. No matter the place and no matter the challenge, we can always turn to music to lend its power.

    For now, safety for all of us remains at home. As applies to venues state-wide, shows at Avant Gardner through May are postponed. Just as it provides strength and comfort, music will also help us heal: our team is working to reschedule impacted shows to later dates, and we will provide updates as they become available.

    For those with questions about requested refunds, please know that we are continuing to navigate the logistics of this unprecedented situation. We deeply appreciate your ongoing patience as we work through responding to your comments and messages.

    Stay home and stay safe. ⁣We look forward to the days and nights of seeing everyone again on the dance floor.


    When I emailed them they gave same response. I had to call Chase and wait on hold for 2 hrs and 20 minutes to put a dispute in. Fucking scumbags.
    It is in my bones which sucks so can make it hard to move sometimes. Trying to spend as much time with friends and family.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Onestep View Post
    This is a concert venue I go to regularly, and have purchased 3 tickets to shows that were "postponed"/cancelled. Semantics really.

    Here is there response to receiving refunds.


    To our patrons and community,

    As we all confront the ongoing COVID-19 crisis, we hold hope as New York unites in its collective effort to flatten the curve. As each among us takes the right steps—stay-at-home and socially-distancing—we do our parts to stem the tide and help our city through an incredibly trying time.

    Until we reach this goal, we also confront profound changes in our routines, activities and everyday lives. Amidst our new reality, we grapple with feelings of uncertainty, loneliness and worry - and we face these challenges without many of the personal interactions, connections and activities that we normally rely upon to help get us through. But here remains a constant source of strength, inspiration, a sort of fuel to propel us through. No matter the place and no matter the challenge, we can always turn to music to lend its power.

    For now, safety for all of us remains at home. As applies to venues state-wide, shows at Avant Gardner through May are postponed. Just as it provides strength and comfort, music will also help us heal: our team is working to reschedule impacted shows to later dates, and we will provide updates as they become available.

    For those with questions about requested refunds, please know that we are continuing to navigate the logistics of this unprecedented situation. We deeply appreciate your ongoing patience as we work through responding to your comments and messages.

    Stay home and stay safe. ⁣We look forward to the days and nights of seeing everyone again on the dance floor.


    When I emailed them they gave same response. I had to call Chase and wait on hold for 2 hrs and 20 minutes to put a dispute in. Fucking scumbags.
    You see what happens? This is what happens when you FUCK a STRANGER in the ASS!

     
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      Onestep: tremendous rep
    SOBCHAK SECURITY 213-799-7798

  10. #10
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    On the airline front, the Department of Transportation is warning airlines to stop pulling negative checkoff scams.

    Several airlines are issuing future credit instead of refunds, and pretending that this is totally okay, even though it's in violation of the law (and has been for a long time).

    Then they give refunds when anyone calls up and complains (if they can get through).

    DOT is warning them to stop that shit or they will get fined: https://thehill.com/policy/transport...-passengers-on

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    On the airline front, the Department of Transportation is warning airlines to stop pulling negative checkoff scams.

    Several airlines are issuing future credit instead of refunds, and pretending that this is totally okay, even though it's in violation of the law (and has been for a long time).

    Then they give refunds when anyone calls up and complains (if they can get through).

    DOT is warning them to stop that shit or they will get fined: https://thehill.com/policy/transport...-passengers-on
    Delta did but United and AA did not. I pretty much pleaded and they said no. Delta said only 1 year credit. Today got another email they extending it from 1 yr to 2 yrs. Not bad.
    It is in my bones which sucks so can make it hard to move sometimes. Trying to spend as much time with friends and family.

  12. #12
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onestep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    On the airline front, the Department of Transportation is warning airlines to stop pulling negative checkoff scams.

    Several airlines are issuing future credit instead of refunds, and pretending that this is totally okay, even though it's in violation of the law (and has been for a long time).

    Then they give refunds when anyone calls up and complains (if they can get through).

    DOT is warning them to stop that shit or they will get fined: https://thehill.com/policy/transport...-passengers-on
    Delta did but United and AA did not. I pretty much pleaded and they said no. Delta said only 1 year credit. Today got another email they extending it from 1 yr to 2 yrs. Not bad.
    You can get a refund. They have to do this by law. Why are you accepting the credit?

    The only way a credit is acceptable is if you cancelled on them, instead of them on you.

    I have a flight scheduled on Delta for a few days from now. We will see what happens. It hasn't been officially cancelled yet, but I'm almost sure it will be.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Onestep View Post

    Delta did but United and AA did not. I pretty much pleaded and they said no. Delta said only 1 year credit. Today got another email they extending it from 1 yr to 2 yrs. Not bad.
    You can get a refund. They have to do this by law. Why are you accepting the credit?

    The only way a credit is acceptable is if you cancelled on them, instead of them on you.

    I have a flight scheduled on Delta for a few days from now. We will see what happens. It hasn't been officially cancelled yet, but I'm almost sure it will be.

    Well the flight did leave, I just had no reason to take it anymore. lol
    It is in my bones which sucks so can make it hard to move sometimes. Trying to spend as much time with friends and family.

  14. #14
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onestep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    You can get a refund. They have to do this by law. Why are you accepting the credit?

    The only way a credit is acceptable is if you cancelled on them, instead of them on you.

    I have a flight scheduled on Delta for a few days from now. We will see what happens. It hasn't been officially cancelled yet, but I'm almost sure it will be.

    Well the flight did leave, I just had no reason to take it anymore. lol
    Yeah a lot of people in that boat. Including me, if Delta doesn't cancel it.

    But prior to today, a lot of people were getting no refund even if the flight was entirely cancelled, which is of course illegal. But enough people are ignorant to the laws to where they were getting away with it, and only crediting people who complained.

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    Master of Props Daly's Avatar
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    I keep seeing a lot of confusion and general bitching and moaning from people online.

    If they cancel on you it should be a full refund in “cash” (refund to a credit card is ok too).

    If you cancel on them then it all comes down the terms and agreements that were made at the time of booking. You need to play nice and be happy with what you get so long as the terms are what was agreed.

    I keep seeing instances like yours Step where people are complaining to the airline becuase they don’t want to go anymore but the flight still went on schedule. That’s not the airlines fault. If they offer you a change and have decided to waive the fee that’s better than you should expect. You shouldn’t be going to twitter tonbitch about it and yet I see people complaining left and right.

    This stubhub situation or Turn Key is flat out theft. There really isn’t another word that better describes it.

     
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      Onestep: agreed. doesnt mean i cant try to wiggle out

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Here's what the Stubhub CEO had to say about their refusal to give refunds:

    We have a situation right now where we had over 20,000 events canceled, basically at the same time. In addition to our buyers, we also have a million sellers on our platform, all of whom are trying to figure out how they're going to get recouped from the original seller — the venue, the team, the artist — and the timing delays are going to be significant.

    In normal times, we would take the risk of giving refunds to buyers before recouping the same refund from the seller. At regular volume, we can afford to take that risk. But these are unprecedented times.

    I understand that by going first, our policy change may have come as a surprise to people. But remember, we're not the original sellers of the tickets or the holders of the inventory. So there's just no way for us to take that timing risk on behalf of sellers, at scale, all at the same time.
    I see what she's saying, but still bullshit. If they are so dedicated to customers, why is the credit only good for 12 months? Why not indefinitely?

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    Master of Props Daly's Avatar
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    That all being said I have pre paid 850€ for four nights at a hotel in downtown Dublin in June. It’s non refundable per the hotel policy. I’d say it’s very unlikely I’m going to make it.

    Anyone have any ideas how I can wiggle out of this one?

  18. #18
    Master of Props Daly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Here's what the Stubhub CEO had to say about their refusal to give refunds:

    We have a situation right now where we had over 20,000 events canceled, basically at the same time. In addition to our buyers, we also have a million sellers on our platform, all of whom are trying to figure out how they're going to get recouped from the original seller — the venue, the team, the artist — and the timing delays are going to be significant.

    In normal times, we would take the risk of giving refunds to buyers before recouping the same refund from the seller. At regular volume, we can afford to take that risk. But these are unprecedented times.

    I understand that by going first, our policy change may have come as a surprise to people. But remember, we're not the original sellers of the tickets or the holders of the inventory. So there's just no way for us to take that timing risk on behalf of sellers, at scale, all at the same time.
    I see what she's saying, but still bullshit. If they are so dedicated to customers, why is the credit only good for 12 months? Why not indefinitely?
    Stubhub - where the only thing that is guaranteed is we get our cut for being in the middle.

    In sportsbetting and poker apps this is where a good agent steps up and makes people whole with all of that commission they have been collecting so the punters feel good and will keep playing with confidence. Not my problem as a punter/runner that you spent the $$ you made and don’t have operating cash to
    Make me whole.

  19. #19
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    That all being said I have pre paid 850€ for four nights at a hotel in downtown Dublin in June. It’s non refundable per the hotel policy. I’d say it’s very unlikely I’m going to make it.

    Anyone have any ideas how I can wiggle out of this one?
    Is the hotel open? If it's not open in June, you can get a refund.

    If you can't travel to Ireland (that is, if they don't allow people from the US to fly there), I'm sure you could get a refund.

    If you can but choose not to, you can call the hotel and ask them for a refund, given the circumstances. If they refuse, you can try to ask for at least a credit for the future.

    Unfortunately I don't think charging back can work, because usually chargebacks only work internationally in the case of credit card fraud.

  20. #20
    Master of Props Daly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daly View Post
    That all being said I have pre paid 850€ for four nights at a hotel in downtown Dublin in June. It’s non refundable per the hotel policy. I’d say it’s very unlikely I’m going to make it.

    Anyone have any ideas how I can wiggle out of this one?
    Is the hotel open? If it's not open in June, you can get a refund.

    If you can't travel to Ireland (that is, if they don't allow people from the US to fly there), I'm sure you could get a refund.

    If you can but choose not to, you can call the hotel and ask them for a refund, given the circumstances. If they refuse, you can try to ask for at least a credit for the future.

    Unfortunately I don't think charging back can work, because usually chargebacks only work internationally in the case of credit card fraud.

    To the best of my knowledge they are open. I agree with all of this and I think my only way out is to call and beg.

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