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Thread: So coronavirus is definitely going to kill a few of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmarefish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    Do you think the media and Democrats have been good at highlighting the massive difference in COVID danger among different age groups, or would you say they've mostly done the opposite?
    They've highlighted it which I think is reflected in the %s you provided.

    Gimmick posted a quote from a CNN article last night:
    "Children are far less likely than adults to suffer severe disease or to die from Covid-19, although some children can develop long-term symptoms regardless of how serious the initial symptoms were."

    When the vaccine first was approved we heard nothing about kids, the entire push by the media was to get the elderly and first responders vaccinated. Then came the bullshit about how the vaccine rollout was racist so they pushed for blacks to get vaccinated.

    Now the focus is on vaccinating the kids because they're obviously the lowest vaccinated demographic and are going back to school where they're in larger groups.

    Even that quote above is misleading and not saying what it should.

    "Far less likely" is an understatement. Why not just share the actual difference in pediatric deaths versus deaths of older adults? Why not share the fact that fewer than 500 children have died of COVID, which are comparable numbers to late-2010s flu in the same number of months?

    Most importantly, why the "some children can develop long-term symptoms regardless of how serious the initial symptoms were" bullshit, when this has never been proven to be happening to children in large numbers? The one study repeatedly cited (out of the UK, from what I remember) was very poorly done and had tons of holes in it. Very few children are suffering from long COVID. By saying "some children can develop long term symptoms", they are implying it is fairly common.

    So you're satisfied with mainstream media coverage on COVID danger, huh?

    Then explain this:



    That's from the NY Times in March 2021.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I actually hope this [second impeachment] succeeds, because I want Trump put down politically like a sick, 14-year-old dog. ... I don't want him complicating the 2024 primary season. I just want him done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Were Republicans cowardly or unethical not to go along with [convicting Trump in the second impeachment Senate trial]? No. The smart move was to reject it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I actually hope this [second impeachment] succeeds, because I want Trump put down politically like a sick, 14-year-old dog. ... I don't want him complicating the 2024 primary season. I just want him done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Were Republicans cowardly or unethical not to go along with [convicting Trump in the second impeachment Senate trial]? No. The smart move was to reject it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nightmarefish View Post

    They've highlighted it which I think is reflected in the %s you provided.

    Gimmick posted a quote from a CNN article last night:
    "Children are far less likely than adults to suffer severe disease or to die from Covid-19, although some children can develop long-term symptoms regardless of how serious the initial symptoms were."

    When the vaccine first was approved we heard nothing about kids, the entire push by the media was to get the elderly and first responders vaccinated. Then came the bullshit about how the vaccine rollout was racist so they pushed for blacks to get vaccinated.

    Now the focus is on vaccinating the kids because they're obviously the lowest vaccinated demographic and are going back to school where they're in larger groups.

    Even that quote above is misleading and not saying what it should.

    "Far less likely" is an understatement. Why not just share the actual difference in pediatric deaths versus deaths of older adults? Why not share the fact that fewer than 500 children have died of COVID, which are comparable numbers to late-2010s flu in the same number of months?

    Most importantly, why the "some children can develop long-term symptoms regardless of how serious the initial symptoms were" bullshit, when this has never been proven to be happening to children in large numbers? The one study repeatedly cited (out of the UK, from what I remember) was very poorly done and had tons of holes in it. Very few children are suffering from long COVID. By saying "some children can develop long term symptoms", they are implying it is fairly common.

    So you're satisfied with mainstream media coverage on COVID danger, huh?

    Then explain this:



    That's from the NY Times in March 2021.
    You just completely avoided my timeline of events. Do you dispute it? The focus early on in the pandemic was to protect old people and first responders (Obvious Cuomo didn't get the memo). Now people over 65 are over 80% vaccinated so they aren't the focus. If the total population was at their rate, covid would be pretty much dead in the US and we wouldn't have 2k people dying a day. Almost everyone would either have had the virus or would be vaccinated. You'd be playing the WSOP right now.

    The question is, why do you doubt any information that covid has long term effects on children while being scared of the long term effects vaccines may have on children when there's zero evidence of that? You lack consistency with have you view things. You cite that the virus doesn't kill many kids which is true but you avoid talking about the fact that the vaccine kills zero kids.

    I wrote this before, there's 4 kinds of people:

    People who are scared of the vaccine and scared of the virus.
    People who aren't scared of the vaccine and aren't scared of the virus.
    People who are scared of the virus but not scared of the vaccine.
    People who are not scared of the virus but are scared of the vaccine.

    Even if I don't agree with some of the people in the first 3 categories, I can still see where they're coming from to a certain extent.
    It's the 4th group that makes no sense to me. How you can be scared of the possible long term effects of the vaccine but not scared at all of the possible long term effects of covid is ridiculous to me. There's tons of data on long term damage covid does to organs thus I have to assume it's doing other damage we don't even know of. But you're not concerned, you're concerned about possible vaccine long term effects with currently zero data to support this fear. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the vaccine does long term damage but at this point it's irrational to fear the vaccine over the virus IMO.

    Gimmick posted a bunch of data and studies in the other thread that you're avoiding. I've yet to see you post anything to backup your POV. But I'm waiting with an open mind.

    Just curious, you keep citing how MSM is covering this. Which liberal shows do you typically consume? The only liberal one I ever even give 5 minutes to is Andrew Cuomo and that's a stretch.

     
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      dwai: shut up fatboy
      
      gimmick:

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmarefish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post


    Even that quote above is misleading and not saying what it should.

    "Far less likely" is an understatement. Why not just share the actual difference in pediatric deaths versus deaths of older adults? Why not share the fact that fewer than 500 children have died of COVID, which are comparable numbers to late-2010s flu in the same number of months?

    Most importantly, why the "some children can develop long-term symptoms regardless of how serious the initial symptoms were" bullshit, when this has never been proven to be happening to children in large numbers? The one study repeatedly cited (out of the UK, from what I remember) was very poorly done and had tons of holes in it. Very few children are suffering from long COVID. By saying "some children can develop long term symptoms", they are implying it is fairly common.

    So you're satisfied with mainstream media coverage on COVID danger, huh?

    Then explain this:



    That's from the NY Times in March 2021.
    You just completely avoided my timeline of events. Do you dispute it? The focus early on in the pandemic was to protect old people and first responders (Obvious Cuomo didn't get the memo). Now people over 65 are over 80% vaccinated so they aren't the focus. If the total population was at their rate, covid would be pretty much dead in the US and we wouldn't have 2k people dying a day. Almost everyone would either have had the virus or would be vaccinated. You'd be playing the WSOP right now.

    The question is, why do you doubt any information that covid has long term effects on children while being scared of the long term effects vaccines may have on children when there's zero evidence of that? You lack consistency with have you view things. You cite that the virus doesn't kill many kids which is true but you avoid talking about the fact that the vaccine kills zero kids.

    I wrote this before, there's 4 kinds of people:

    People who are scared of the vaccine and scared of the virus.
    People who aren't scared of the vaccine and aren't scared of the virus.
    People who are scared of the virus but not scared of the vaccine.
    People who are not scared of the virus but are scared of the vaccine.

    Even if I don't agree with some of the people in the first 3 categories, I can still see where they're coming from to a certain extent.
    It's the 4th group that makes no sense to me. How you can be scared of the possible long term effects of the vaccine but not scared at all of the possible long term effects of covid is ridiculous to me. There's tons of data on long term damage covid does to organs thus I have to assume it's doing other damage we don't even know of. But you're not concerned, you're concerned about possible vaccine long term effects with currently zero data to support this fear. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the vaccine does long term damage but at this point it's irrational to fear the vaccine over the virus IMO.

    Gimmick posted a bunch of data and studies in the other thread that you're avoiding. I've yet to see you post anything to backup your POV. But I'm waiting with an open mind.

    Just curious, you keep citing how MSM is covering this. Which liberal shows do you typically consume? The only liberal one I ever even give 5 minutes to is Andrew Cuomo and that's a stretch.
    I'm not avoiding anything. I've gone back and forth with gimmick a ton over the past 20 months, regarding COVID. Eventually I stop engaging him because he just degenerates to posting highly biased, poorly conducted, or outlier "studies", and ignores the bigger picture. It takes time to go read and analyze each one, and eventually I get sick of it, and move on.

    But let's get back to your points.

    You asked, "The question is, why do you doubt any information that covid has long term effects on children while being scared of the long term effects vaccines may have on children when there's zero evidence of that? You lack consistency with have you view things. You cite that the virus doesn't kill many kids which is true but you avoid talking about the fact that the vaccine kills zero kids."

    Again, developmental effects show themselves over time. You're not going to see that right away, and the COVID vaccine simply hasn't been studied in kids for long enough (especially young kids) to where we can have any degree of certainty that it's "safe" for them. The COVID vaccine was released faster than any vaccine in history, by a wide margin. Now, that part makes sense. COVID is bad enough for elderly and middle-aged adults to where it's worth cutting some long-term safety corners in order to vaccinate those populations against it. However, "safe" is a relative term (just ask the family of that dead woman in Oregon, who Twitter won't let you talk about), and it's absurd to claim that a lack of "proof" that a new vaccine is harmful to developing kids somehow equals safety.

    It's a risk/reward situation. For the elderly and middle-aged, the risk/reward tilts in obvious favor of taking the vaccine. For young adults, it moderately tilts in favor of taking the vaccine. For kids, it's a much tougher decision. It's not an obvious "no", but it's not an obvious "yes", either. I'm personally struggling with what I should do for Benjamin, but I definitely don't want some asshole like Newsom forcing my hand and taking the decision away from me.

    You realize that COVID risk profiles about the same as the flu for young children, right? Why weren't kids masking before to prevent to flu? Why weren't any of these measures taken for the 2009-10 Swine Flu, which was deadlier to the average person than COVID is for kids?

    I know you're not a liberal. For some reason you have bought into the media panic about COVID, and refusing to look at the super obvious differences in risk for kids versus risk for older adults. Like, you realize the risk is different, but for some reason you think the mitigation for all groups should be the same, which makes zero sense. You won't even admit that the mainstream media has caused the population to be highly confused about the true risk of COVID, despite the NY Times poll I posted above.

    Oh, and you also said 80% vaccination rates would have stopped COVID. False. That's 2020 thinking. For various reasons, that turned out to be incorrect. Portugal has a staggering 88% vaccination rate, and still had 690 new cases yesterday. Before you get excited and trumpet what a low number that is, they have 33x fewer people than the US. Multiply that by 33, and that would be almost 23,000 new daily cases in a US-sized popiulation.

    I think you're so frustrated with anti-vaxx MAGA types that you're not honestly taking a look at the culpability of the left/media in all of this.

     
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      country978: gimmick has some great insights. and i think he tries to be fair. we just dont agree on everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Again, developmental effects show themselves over time. You're not going to see that right away, and the COVID vaccine simply hasn't been studied in kids for long enough (especially young kids) to where we can have any degree of certainty that it's "safe" for them. The COVID vaccine was released faster than any vaccine in history, by a wide margin. Now, that part makes sense. COVID is bad enough for elderly and middle-aged adults to where it's worth cutting some long-term safety corners in order to vaccinate those populations against it. However, "safe" is a relative term (just ask the family of that dead woman in Oregon, who Twitter won't let you talk about), and it's absurd to claim that a lack of "proof" that a new vaccine is harmful to developing kids somehow equals safety.
    You're concerned about developmental effects from the vaccine but not concerned about the developmental effects from the virus. By your standard, there wouldn't be enough data to make a conclusion on either yet you only talk about being scared of the possible effects from the vaccine. Just doesn't make any sense to me. If you were concerned about both I'd understand but only being concerned about the vaccine's possible effects, I just can't get onboard with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Oh, and you also said 80% vaccination rates would have stopped COVID. False. That's 2020 thinking. For various reasons, that turned out to be incorrect. Portugal has a staggering 88% vaccination rate, and still had 690 new cases yesterday. Before you get excited and trumpet what a low number that is, they have 33x fewer people than the US. Multiply that by 33, and that would be almost 23,000 new daily cases in a US-sized population.
    I'm not concerned about new cases, I'm concerned about hospitalizations and deaths. Those are the things stopping us from getting back to normal. The evidence is overwhelming that the vaccine vastly prevents those two things.

    So I guess the real question is, If Ben for sure was going to get the vaccine or the virus which one would you choose?

     
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      dwai: false, vaccine doesn't work
      
      gimmick:
    Last edited by nightmarefish; 10-02-2021 at 07:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmarefish View Post
    You're concerned about developmental effects from the vaccine but not concerned about the developmental effects from the virus. By your standard, there wouldn't be enough data to make a conclusion on either yet you only talk about being scared of the possible effects from the vaccine. Just doesn't make any sense to me. If you were concerned about both I'd understand but only being concerned about the vaccine's possible effects, I just can't get onboard with.

    I'm not concerned about new cases, I'm concerned about hospitalizations and deaths. Those are the things stopping us from getting back to normal. The evidence is overwhelming that the vaccine vastly prevents those two things.

    So I guess the real question is, If Ben for sure was going to get the vaccine or the virus which one would you choose?
    I think you're looking past what I'm saying here. I am not saying I am refusing to vaccinate Ben. I'm on the fence about this. I don't want him to have COVID, and am mildly worried what it could do to him long term. However, I am far more concerned about having COVID myself. In fact, my danger as a vaccinated 49-year-old is higher than his danger as an unvaccinated 10-year-old, and that includes non-deadly long-term effects such as lung damage (which are virtually absent in minors, but not uncommon in middle aged people.)

    At the same time, I am worried about what the vaccine might do to his development.

    Overall, I do believe the overwhelming chance is that he'd be fine with both getting COVID and/or getting the vaccine. However, it's not an obvious choice. Both have potential downsides, and both have unknowns.

    It is absurd that the governemnt would force the parents to choose one way, given how close it is as to which one is correct. Requiring it for public school admission is almost the same as forcing parents to do it, unless you think that kids don't have a right to an education.

    Requiring something is a huge difference from recommending something.

    Overall, the long-term COVID picture is likely to play out like a flu which kills more older people. It's probably here to stay. We will have vaccines, but they will never quite keep up with all the variants, and we might need to do them twice a year. Eventually the solution will come in the form of a treatment, and we might have something effective as soon as 2022. It will still kill people every year for a very long time, especially those who aren't fast enough to get the eventual treament (or refuse it), and the unlucky ones who aren't helped enough by it.

    It is likely that almost everyone will have had COVID by 2030.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nightmarefish View Post
    You're concerned about developmental effects from the vaccine but not concerned about the developmental effects from the virus. By your standard, there wouldn't be enough data to make a conclusion on either yet you only talk about being scared of the possible effects from the vaccine. Just doesn't make any sense to me. If you were concerned about both I'd understand but only being concerned about the vaccine's possible effects, I just can't get onboard with.

    I'm not concerned about new cases, I'm concerned about hospitalizations and deaths. Those are the things stopping us from getting back to normal. The evidence is overwhelming that the vaccine vastly prevents those two things.

    So I guess the real question is, If Ben for sure was going to get the vaccine or the virus which one would you choose?
    Overall, I do believe the overwhelming chance is that he'd be fine with both getting COVID and/or getting the vaccine. However, it's not an obvious choice. Both have potential downsides, and both have unknowns.
    .
    This is reasonable and balanced which I can understand. I don’t think you’ve written this before or I missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nightmarefish View Post

    You just completely avoided my timeline of events. Do you dispute it? The focus early on in the pandemic was to protect old people and first responders (Obvious Cuomo didn't get the memo). Now people over 65 are over 80% vaccinated so they aren't the focus. If the total population was at their rate, covid would be pretty much dead in the US and we wouldn't have 2k people dying a day. Almost everyone would either have had the virus or would be vaccinated. You'd be playing the WSOP right now.

    The question is, why do you doubt any information that covid has long term effects on children while being scared of the long term effects vaccines may have on children when there's zero evidence of that? You lack consistency with have you view things. You cite that the virus doesn't kill many kids which is true but you avoid talking about the fact that the vaccine kills zero kids.

    I wrote this before, there's 4 kinds of people:

    People who are scared of the vaccine and scared of the virus.
    People who aren't scared of the vaccine and aren't scared of the virus.
    People who are scared of the virus but not scared of the vaccine.
    People who are not scared of the virus but are scared of the vaccine.

    Even if I don't agree with some of the people in the first 3 categories, I can still see where they're coming from to a certain extent.
    It's the 4th group that makes no sense to me. How you can be scared of the possible long term effects of the vaccine but not scared at all of the possible long term effects of covid is ridiculous to me. There's tons of data on long term damage covid does to organs thus I have to assume it's doing other damage we don't even know of. But you're not concerned, you're concerned about possible vaccine long term effects with currently zero data to support this fear. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the vaccine does long term damage but at this point it's irrational to fear the vaccine over the virus IMO.

    Gimmick posted a bunch of data and studies in the other thread that you're avoiding. I've yet to see you post anything to backup your POV. But I'm waiting with an open mind.

    Just curious, you keep citing how MSM is covering this. Which liberal shows do you typically consume? The only liberal one I ever even give 5 minutes to is Andrew Cuomo and that's a stretch.
    I'm not avoiding anything. I've gone back and forth with gimmick a ton over the past 20 months, regarding COVID. Eventually I stop engaging him because he just degenerates to posting highly biased, poorly conducted, or outlier "studies", and ignores the bigger picture. It takes time to go read and analyze each one, and eventually I get sick of it, and move on.

    Oh, and you also said 80% vaccination rates would have stopped COVID. False. That's 2020 thinking. For various reasons, that turned out to be incorrect. Portugal has a staggering 88% vaccination rate, and still had 690 new cases yesterday. Before you get excited and trumpet what a low number that is, they have 33x fewer people than the US. Multiply that by 33, and that would be almost 23,000 new daily cases in a US-sized popiulation.

    I think you're so frustrated with anti-vaxx MAGA types that you're not honestly taking a look at the culpability of the left/media in all of this.
    Your latest 7-day rolling average with cases is 108k.

    Your latest 7-day rolling average with deaths is 1882. Portugal is at 5 (*33=165)

    So Portugal has 20% of your cases and 10% of your deaths. What a massive failure for Portugal. What's the big picture again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Twitter now censoring the sharing of vaccine horror stories.

    Apparently a 37-year-old healthy woman died from the vaccine, and Twitter isn't allowing it to be retweeted, and is calling it "misleading" despite apparently being completely factual.

    https://twitter.com/ke11ybender/status/1444099139977945088



    Yes, this was an outlier event and isn't an argument against vaccination, but LOL @ trying to suppress this.
    So would you say there are more dead kids from covid than there are dead adults from the vaccine?

    Would you say the right is correctly informing everyone about how lethal the vaccine is?

    Do you think every story should have a number like 99.99999999999999% survival rate for the vaccine?

    Or maybe 0.0000000000000001% died of complications related to the vaccine?

     
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      Walter Sobchak: What’s good for the goose is good for the gander

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      Walter Sobchak: Good. Let them keep dying.
    _____________________________________________
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I actually hope this [second impeachment] succeeds, because I want Trump put down politically like a sick, 14-year-old dog. ... I don't want him complicating the 2024 primary season. I just want him done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Were Republicans cowardly or unethical not to go along with [convicting Trump in the second impeachment Senate trial]? No. The smart move was to reject it.

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    LOL, remember when Tgull was all 'I'm trying to figure out why Covid is hitting the Dem's harder'
    Cause we have all the airports.
    We applied Science, and now it only in the red states, and (red areas of Blue states.)
    You guys went w/the 'Trump, FB and Fox news know more about covid than Fauci' and now you guys are dying at twice the rate of Dems.

    Tgull has to be the stupidest guy on Poker Fraud, because he thinks he is smart.
    At least a guy like Dwia knows he isn't, ​that is why he only posts memes.


     
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      Cerveza Fria: LOL at followed the Science...like when Dems wanted to do vaccines by race? Science!
    San Francisco crowned the ‘world’s best’ city to live: survey
    https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/...o-live-survey/

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    I saw people flying on highways 4 cars demolished add to covid numbers

     
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      splitthis: The roads are nuts

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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKRIZZO View Post
    I saw people flying on highways 4 cars demolished add to covid numbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyG_415 View Post
    LOL, remember when Tgull was all 'I'm trying to figure out why Covid is hitting the Dem's harder'
    Cause we have all the airports.
    We applied Science, and now it only in the red states, and (red areas of Blue states.)
    You guys went w/the 'Trump, FB and Fox news know more about covid than Fauci' and now you guys are dying at twice the rate of Dems.

    Tgull has to be the stupidest guy on Poker Fraud, because he thinks he is smart.
    At least a guy like Dwia knows he isn't, ​that is why he only posts memes.

    Don’t worry that retard will deny what he said before, get every fact wrong again, then proclaim his greatness right before he drinks himself into his nightly stupor.

    SOBCHAK SECURITY 213-799-7798

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    source



    JUST TAKE THE VAX ALREADY BIGOT!

     
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      TheXFactor: Have them jab the vaccine up your ASS!
      
      gimmick: "trolling"

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    PokerFraudAlert...will never censor your claims, even if they're against one of our sponsors. In addition to providing you an open forum report fraud within the poker community, we will also analyze your claims with a clear head an unbiased point of view. And, of course, the accused will always have the floor to defend themselves.-Dan Druff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
    God you are a fucking idiot

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    I'm not avoiding anything. I've gone back and forth with gimmick a ton over the past 20 months, regarding COVID. Eventually I stop engaging him because he just degenerates to posting highly biased, poorly conducted, or outlier "studies", and ignores the bigger picture. It takes time to go read and analyze each one, and eventually I get sick of it, and move on.

    Oh, and you also said 80% vaccination rates would have stopped COVID. False. That's 2020 thinking. For various reasons, that turned out to be incorrect. Portugal has a staggering 88% vaccination rate, and still had 690 new cases yesterday. Before you get excited and trumpet what a low number that is, they have 33x fewer people than the US. Multiply that by 33, and that would be almost 23,000 new daily cases in a US-sized popiulation.

    I think you're so frustrated with anti-vaxx MAGA types that you're not honestly taking a look at the culpability of the left/media in all of this.
    Your latest 7-day rolling average with cases is 108k.

    Your latest 7-day rolling average with deaths is 1882. Portugal is at 5 (*33=165)

    So Portugal has 20% of your cases and 10% of your deaths. What a massive failure for Portugal. What's the big picture again?
    Show me any post I've made where I've said or implied that high vaccination rates are useless.

    nightmarefish was saying that 80% vaccination in the US would have meant the end of COVID here. I showed him a country with 88% where it's not anywhere near ended. That was my only point. The 80% vaccination for herd immunity is 2020 thinking.

    Nice strawmanning though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    Your latest 7-day rolling average with cases is 108k.

    Your latest 7-day rolling average with deaths is 1882. Portugal is at 5 (*33=165)

    So Portugal has 20% of your cases and 10% of your deaths. What a massive failure for Portugal. What's the big picture again?
    Show me any post I've made where I've said or implied that high vaccination rates are useless.

    nightmarefish was saying that 80% vaccination in the US would have meant the end of COVID here. I showed him a country with 88% where it's not anywhere near ended. That was my only point. The 80% vaccination for herd immunity is 2020 thinking.

    Nice strawmanning though.
    If that was your point, then you could have just mentioned their case numbers were more than 0.

    But you didn't do that.

    Instead you said this, "Before you get excited and trumpet what a low number that is, they have 33x fewer people than the US. Multiply that by 33" and other random crap.

    How is it a strawman when i'm using your exact method with case and death numbers?

    ps. I've never said or implied your strawman of "said or implied that high vaccination rates are useless".

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