So coronavirus is definitely going to kill a few of us.

[sonatine]

Just in case you are still foolish enough to believe the left is following the science...


Here's a November 23rd presentation by Kathleen Dooling at the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...04-Dooling.pdf

It's slides, so you can get through the 40 pages in not too long, but the good stuff starts on page 19. She's analyzing the difference between vaccinating old people (65+) in their own priority group, versus lumping them in with "high risk adults 18-64" and "essential workers".

On pages 19-21, she concedes that putting old people in the same priority group as "essential workers" will kill up to 6.5% more people! However, on page 22 she calls that difference "minimal", and notes that "ethical principles (meaning racial justice) may greatly contribute to choosing the optimal sequence (of distribution)".



On page 31, there's a slide showing the pros and cons of the distribution possibilities, and a major factor is "promote justice".

Yeah, let's worry about "racial justice" when trying to save lives from a pandemic. Great timing for that concern, guys.




WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS BITCH TALKING ABOUT? THE GOAL SHOULD BE TO SAVE THE MOST LIVES, PERIOD. WHY ARE WE CONSIDERING ANY OTHER PLAN THAN THAT????


The left totally follows the science, though, and they totally care about saving American lives during COVID. Aren't you excited for 4 more years of this, where it will be a lot more prevalent because Biden will be appointing a ton of these type of people to high positions?

Get ready for a lot of woke retardation.

baizuo

Baizuo (prounounced 'bye-tswaw') is a chinese epithet meaning "naive western educated person who advocates for equality only to satisfy their own feelings of moral superiority."

this must be an emotionally complicated concept for you, given how few things you're superior to.

[BCR]

Oh and Druff you missed my question about individual hospitals prioritization process that they have for everything. I'm sure it was an honest mistake and you will enlighten us all with your deep knowledge on the issue.

I don’t feel like reading it as I just woke up. Is the justice shit just PR? Is it simply a byproduct of minorities being disproportionately front line workers and having higher incidence of pre-existing conditions? By PR I mean just to allay concerns that a bunch of country club 50 year olds working from home aren’t getting it before a black UPS driver? I mean minorities work disproportionately on front line jobs, have higher pre-existing condition rates, so a larger percentage were always going to get it earlier. They’re dying more for all those reasons, so logic always dictated they’d get it earlier given health and occupation. Is there anything in there that goes beyond reason to show favoritism?

[dwai]

Oh and Druff you missed my question about individual hospitals prioritization process that they have for everything. I'm sure it was an honest mistake and you will enlighten us all with your deep knowledge on the issue.

I don’t feel like reading it as I just woke up. Is the justice shit just PR? Is it simply a byproduct of minorities being disproportionately front line workers and having higher incidence of pre-existing conditions? By PR I mean just to allay concerns that a bunch of country club 50 year olds working from home aren’t getting it before a black UPS driver? I mean minorities work disproportionately on front line jobs, have higher pre-existing condition rates, so a larger percentage were always going to get it earlier. They’re dying more for all those reasons, so logic always dictated they’d get it earlier given health and occupation. Is there anything in there that goes beyond reason to show favoritism?

[Sanlmar]

Typhoid Mary Defense.

Exponential spread.

That's not the defense, though. They are already conceding that there won't be an "exponential spread" given the current state of COVID already being everywhere, and that the simple approach of vaccinating old people first WILL save lives.

But they won't do it because of racial justice.

Better that we prevent a black 25-year-old grocery store worker from getting a cough than an old person dying.

Let’s imagine I have a front desk person at a health club. Imagine 10,000 unique check-ins a month. Especially these days, there is much interaction. Cancelled classes. Membership status changes, etc. etc.

The front desk person is a low skill/low wage position manned by a young person. A young person who is likely social anyway but has contact with a respectable percentage of your local population.

The front desk kid tests positive and a contact tracing nightmare ensues. Your business is dead as well.

In terms of economics, the less concern the customers have about the health club risk the more likely they are to keep their membership active. People get paid and there is a turkey for Tiny Tim at Christmas.

You alluded to some hint of herd immunity with reference to exponential spread. We will just issue you a pass.

If some lib is trying to shoehorn their social justice agenda into coronavirus that does not invalidate the idea here. There is nonsense on both sides of the aisle. The logic of vaccinating young retail with much social interaction is actually defensible and in fact economically desirable.

Nobody is talking about the death rates for black, 18 year old check out clerks. That is not our concern.

You do trigger me. I am wary of your political commentary. You are not balanced in your concerns or criticisms. You have revealed virtually no concern for the Republican Party and it’s current figurehead. Your brand is tainted. I must approach you with caution and test your claims.

We are in the midst of a political, social & economic shit show and it is not entirely the fault of the left. Indeed Biden is going to drive me nuts. I cannot believe the situation we are in.

Let’s describe our circumstance as great social upheaval. You do not cover it fully.

[gimmick]

Oh and Druff you missed my question about individual hospitals prioritization process that they have for everything. I'm sure it was an honest mistake and you will enlighten us all with your deep knowledge on the issue.

I don’t feel like reading it as I just woke up. Is the justice shit just PR? Is it simply a byproduct of minorities being disproportionately front line workers and having higher incidence of pre-existing conditions? By PR I mean just to allay concerns that a bunch of country club 50 year olds working from home aren’t getting it before a black UPS driver? I mean minorities work disproportionately on front line jobs, have higher pre-existing condition rates, so a larger percentage were always going to get it earlier. They’re dying more for all those reasons, so logic always dictated they’d get it earlier given health and occupation. Is there anything in there that goes beyond reason to show favoritism?

Some mix of the above. Everything you mentioned and living conditions create the 2,5 to 3x death rate. They might use it for woke points and random PR, but race seems to be about 7th or 8th most important factor they consider.

I doubt a black UPS driver ever makes the cut for phase 1b. There's 80ish million essential workers and about a quarter to third have pre-existing conditions. That alone would be enough to fill the quota. Off just occupation i'd assume police, firemen, meatpackers and even cashiers are reasonably high on the list.

[dwai]

I don’t feel like reading it as I just woke up. Is the justice shit just PR? Is it simply a byproduct of minorities being disproportionately front line workers and having higher incidence of pre-existing conditions? By PR I mean just to allay concerns that a bunch of country club 50 year olds working from home aren’t getting it before a black UPS driver? I mean minorities work disproportionately on front line jobs, have higher pre-existing condition rates, so a larger percentage were always going to get it earlier. They’re dying more for all those reasons, so logic always dictated they’d get it earlier given health and occupation. Is there anything in there that goes beyond reason to show favoritism?

Some mix of the above. Everything you mentioned and living conditions create the 2,5 to 3x death rate. They might use it for woke points and random PR, but race seems to be about 7th or 8th most important factor they consider.

I doubt a black UPS driver ever makes the cut for phase 1b. There's 80ish million essential workers and about a quarter to third have pre-existing conditions. That alone would be enough to fill the quota. Off just occupation i'd assume police, firemen, meatpackers and even cashiers are reasonably high on the list.

Druff is gonna be pissed

[Sanlmar]

Nobody talks about J&J’s vaccine.

Perhaps single dose.

They will make Moderna & Pfizer look like boutique producers. We talking a billion units? There will be a vaccine glut.

[gimmick]

Some mix of the above. Everything you mentioned and living conditions create the 2,5 to 3x death rate. They might use it for woke points and random PR, but race seems to be about 7th or 8th most important factor they consider.

I doubt a black UPS driver ever makes the cut for phase 1b. There's 80ish million essential workers and about a quarter to third have pre-existing conditions. That alone would be enough to fill the quota. Off just occupation i'd assume police, firemen, meatpackers and even cashiers are reasonably high on the list.

Druff is gonna be pissed

Local hospitals likely have enough say in the order that someone in Portland gets a vaccine for preexisting wokeness and Seattle assigns the members of the local Antifa chapter as essential workers.

[dwai]

Druff is gonna be pissed

Local hospitals likely have enough say in the order that someone in Portland gets a vaccine for preexisting wokeness and Seattle assigns the members of the local Antifa chapter as essential workers.

[sonatine]

Druff is gonna be pissed

Local hospitals likely have enough say in the order that someone in Portland gets a vaccine for preexisting wokeness and Seattle assigns the members of the local Antifa chapter as essential workers.

those cans of soup arent going to deliver themselves to ANTIFA families

[nightmarefish]

Everyone has fatigue.

"Report Emerges Claiming That Dr. Deborah Birx Violated Her Thanksgiving Coronavirus Recommendations"

https://www.dailywire.com/news/repor...ing-covid-recs

[Dan Druff]

Yea they prioritized care facility residents with healthcare workers. That's 40% of US deaths.

I'm sure there's a 95 year old with pre-existing conditions living outside a care facility somewhere within US. There honestly could be more than one. And i'm sure those 95 year old ladies/gentlemen didn't choose that because they have access to far better healthcare than a care facility could provide. There must be at least one.

Anyways once you cut out the nursing home crowd, you cut out 50% of the above 65 crowd fatalities. Then when you glance at ven-diagram with the old, essential and sick. Compare that to the phase 1b numbers of available vaccinations, the pre-existing condition multipliers and infection rate adjustment you get something that looks a lot like the current plan for vaccination schedule.

Now you would actually have to understand the science and just maybe assume that a powerpointescue presentation of the shit contains less than 1% of everything that goes to the decision making process.

But muh 95 year olds, that are already been taken care of.

Actually, "muh 95 year olds" haven't been taken care of. That's the problem. You seem to think there's some repository of old people in the US where they just all get dropped off when they hit a certain birthday. That's not how it works.

Nursing homes are pretty awful places. They're also expensive. There's also old people who don't want or need them. My girlfriend's grandmother lived to age 99, was independent, and didn't need any shit like that. I met her a year before she died, and can verify. Move her up 8 years (make her 99 today instead of in 2012), and she's in the same priority group as a 25-year-old grocery store checker.

Oh.

All the gimmick eurobabble in the world isn't going to change that absurd fact.

The bottom line is that the CDC already admits that there will be as much as 6.5% more death with their plan, and that it's unlikely to result in fewer deaths -- either long term or short term.

[Dan Druff]

Oh and that 6.5% numbers is obv split in half once you've already covered "nursing homes". That's also the number that was valid about 2 months ago. The figure you're looking to split now is closer to 3%. Giving you a 1,5% increased deaths. To cover that with an infection rate decrease depends how long it takes for the rest of the vaccinations to roll out. Don't worry it's a small number. People smarter than me have ran those numbers. And between me and Druff, one us looks very likely to have nailed the number of deaths two months in advance. Just saying.

Your blather about the nursing homes doesn't figure into that 6.5% number. They were calculating deaths during stage 1b -- the stage AFTER the nursing homes are already vaccinated. That presentation was on November 20, not "two months ago".
Nice try, though.

[Dan Druff]

One other thing to consider.

Vaccines in general have a much lower efficacy in older people. Often requiring double doses and repeating the vaccination completely. Being a two part vaccination is likely to complicate this issue.
This is a new type of vaccine so my generalisation might be incorrect.

But I'm sure Dr Druff has considered this.

"They concluded that rather than the estimated 70-90% clinical vaccine efficacy in younger adults, this figure was only 17-53%"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21880118/

This is a 2011 study about the flu vaccine. Apples and oranges.

In the trials, it was seen that efficacy levels for these mRNA COVID vaccines were great across all age groups.

Nice try, though.

Current administration makes decisions that druff passionately disagrees with.... druff blames the left.

I'm seeing a pattern here.

I blame the left because the people making the decisions here are on the left. Remember that laughable "promote justice" slide in the PDF I posted? The person who made that slide is a black trans who goes by they/them, and supports defunding the police. Do you think he's a Trump appointee?

When a new President takes office, there is only some turnover among employees working under the Executive Branch. There are 4 million such employees. Obviously the incoming President isn't going to fire them all and start fresh.

These idiotic decisions were made by leftist who work at the CDC. The only mystery is why Trump appointee Robert Redfield (CDC director) stood by and let this happen. Regardless, these weren't Republicans giving such direction. Even if it were, I'd be criticizing it, because it's stupid.

[Dan Druff]

Oh and Druff you missed my question about individual hospitals prioritization process that they have for everything. I'm sure it was an honest mistake and you will enlighten us all with your deep knowledge on the issue.

I don’t feel like reading it as I just woke up. Is the justice shit just PR? Is it simply a byproduct of minorities being disproportionately front line workers and having higher incidence of pre-existing conditions? By PR I mean just to allay concerns that a bunch of country club 50 year olds working from home aren’t getting it before a black UPS driver? I mean minorities work disproportionately on front line jobs, have higher pre-existing condition rates, so a larger percentage were always going to get it earlier. They’re dying more for all those reasons, so logic always dictated they’d get it earlier given health and occupation. Is there anything in there that goes beyond reason to show favoritism?

The CDC is giving guidelines.

The states are recommended to follow these guidelines, and most have agreed to do so. The states then lay out the method of distribution, and the amount of decision power each individual vaccine distributor has.

As usual, though, gimmick is just babbling. The data has already been presented, and it has been conceded that more people will die if essential workers are in the same priority group as old people. No matter who is making the final decision, it's the wrong one.

As it breaks out by political affiliation, the right is overwhelmingly for vaccinating the old people first. The left is overwhelmingly for vaccinating the essential workers along with the old people (or in some cases, the essential workers BEFORE the old people), for so-called "racial justice" reasons. These leftists will quietly concede that their plan leads to more death, but claim it's "insignificant", which you can see gimmick trying to do in one of his posts responding to me. That's pretty horrifying, and very telling regarding how much they value woke ideology over human life. They're not even trying to tell a bad faith lie anymore that their plan will lead to the fewest deaths.

You should take notice of Nate Silver and other more moderate liberals, who have been screaming angrily about this plan. It's not just Nate, but also several others who have long attacked Trump and the right, yet are furiously yelling that this "racial justice" COVID distribution plan is insanity. That should tell you something.

[Dan Druff]

Anyway, looks like gimmick is now pivoting by saying that local hospitals will do the right thing anyway, so nothing to worry about, guyz!!!

We totally shouldn't be concerned that the CDC. who is leading the guidance for the entire nation, is recommending that healthy grocery store workers get the vaccine in the same priority group as 95-year-olds.

Because hospitals are gonna totally disregard that and totally do the right thing, you see.


Anyway, gimmick, it seems that if your point is that hospital admins will overrule the CDC's insanity, that you believe the old people SHOULD get the vaccine before the essential workers?

[BCR]

I don’t feel like reading it as I just woke up. Is the justice shit just PR? Is it simply a byproduct of minorities being disproportionately front line workers and having higher incidence of pre-existing conditions? By PR I mean just to allay concerns that a bunch of country club 50 year olds working from home aren’t getting it before a black UPS driver? I mean minorities work disproportionately on front line jobs, have higher pre-existing condition rates, so a larger percentage were always going to get it earlier. They’re dying more for all those reasons, so logic always dictated they’d get it earlier given health and occupation. Is there anything in there that goes beyond reason to show favoritism?

The CDC is giving guidelines.

The states are recommended to follow these guidelines, and most have agreed to do so. The states then lay out the method of distribution, and the amount of decision power each individual vaccine distributor has.

As usual, though, gimmick is just babbling. The data has already been presented, and it has been conceded that more people will die if essential workers are in the same priority group as old people. No matter who is making the final decision, it's the wrong one.

As it breaks out by political affiliation, the right is overwhelmingly for vaccinating the old people first. The left is overwhelmingly for vaccinating the essential workers along with the old people (or in some cases, the essential workers BEFORE the old people), for so-called "racial justice" reasons. These leftists will quietly concede that their plan leads to more death, but claim it's "insignificant", which you can see gimmick trying to do in one of his posts responding to me. That's pretty horrifying, and very telling regarding how much they value woke ideology over human life. They're not even trying to tell a bad faith lie anymore that their plan will lead to the fewest deaths.

You should take notice of Nate Silver and other more moderate liberals, who have been screaming angrily about this plan. It's not just Nate, but also several others who have long attacked Trump and the right, yet are furiously yelling that this "racial justice" COVID distribution plan is insanity. That should tell you something.

Ok.

Out of curiosity, why do you disagree with that angle?

Whenever anyone has made a 9/11 every day comparison, you always jump in and point to their age and reference years lost, which is true.

Whenever a dwai posts his fake stats, you are always quick to point to the long term damage being done. And that’s really random, not nearly as polarized as death/age.

What’s more tragic to you? An 86 year old with a year left dying who had 85 healthy years before or a 43 year old with long term health complications for the next 40 years?

I think what’s more costly and damaging to society is quite obvious. One we will be paying disability to for the next 40 years and heavy medical bills, while the other simply passes six months or a year earlier.

It’s all tragic and I wish we simply had enough right now for everyone. I’m more concerned personally for the older demos as I’m most concerned about my parents, but what is best for society as a whole?

What’s best for the economy and what is liberal or conservative here? Is it paying those who get sick now disability for 40 years rather than losing someone a year early?

Are the “woke” faction accidentally making choices that are actually fiscally conservative?

[splitthis]

Their thinking has to do with older people can stay holed up until it’s their turn, younger working cannot.

It’s a moot point anyways, nasty mutations are already hitting.

Again, change the way you are living, to live.

[Dan Druff]

The CDC is giving guidelines.

The states are recommended to follow these guidelines, and most have agreed to do so. The states then lay out the method of distribution, and the amount of decision power each individual vaccine distributor has.

As usual, though, gimmick is just babbling. The data has already been presented, and it has been conceded that more people will die if essential workers are in the same priority group as old people. No matter who is making the final decision, it's the wrong one.

As it breaks out by political affiliation, the right is overwhelmingly for vaccinating the old people first. The left is overwhelmingly for vaccinating the essential workers along with the old people (or in some cases, the essential workers BEFORE the old people), for so-called "racial justice" reasons. These leftists will quietly concede that their plan leads to more death, but claim it's "insignificant", which you can see gimmick trying to do in one of his posts responding to me. That's pretty horrifying, and very telling regarding how much they value woke ideology over human life. They're not even trying to tell a bad faith lie anymore that their plan will lead to the fewest deaths.

You should take notice of Nate Silver and other more moderate liberals, who have been screaming angrily about this plan. It's not just Nate, but also several others who have long attacked Trump and the right, yet are furiously yelling that this "racial justice" COVID distribution plan is insanity. That should tell you something.

Ok.

Out of curiosity, why do you disagree with that angle?

Whenever anyone has made a 9/11 every day comparison, you always jump in and point to their age and reference years lost, which is true.

Whenever a dwai posts his fake stats, you are always quick to point to the long term damage being done. And that’s really random, not nearly as polarized as death/age.

What’s more tragic to you? An 86 year old with a year left dying who had 85 healthy years before or a 43 year old with long term health complications for the next 40 years?

I think what’s more costly and damaging to society is quite obvious. One we will be paying disability to for the next 40 years and heavy medical bills, while the other simply passes six months or a year earlier.

It’s all tragic and I wish we simply had enough right now for everyone. I’m more concerned personally for the older demos as I’m most concerned about my parents, but what is best for society as a whole?

What’s best for the economy and what is liberal or conservative here? Is it paying those who get sick now disability for 40 years rather than losing someone a year early?

Are the “woke” faction accidentally making choices that are actually fiscally conservative?

The woke faction isn't making this argument, though. They're actually advocating vaccinating "essential workers" first, simply to equalize decades of perceived racial healthcare injustice. Basically, "Black people always got screwed with healthcare. Now let's screw old white people to make it more equitable!"

They also don't account for the fact that MORE black people will die under this plan, as it will kill additional old black people, too.

But to answer your question, the incidence of younger people ending up on "disability" from COVID is fairly low, so that's not really a concern. This is especially true of the under-35 crowd, who typically get a mild version of the virus without permanent damage. This disease harms old people by such a disproportionately large amount that there shouldn't even be a discussion as to whether anyone else should get it before them. Maybe healthcare workers who directly work with COVID patients, but that's about it.

It's absolutely absurd that postal and grocery store employees are going to be competing with seniors. There's simply no way to rationally explain this, which is why even some Trump-hating liberals are crying foul.

BTW, "fiscally conservative" doesn't equal "disregard of human life in order to save money". It would be financially beneficial to society to simply shoot all people dead after their 70th birthday -- regardless of COVID. Obviously that's never been a consideration. There are always calculations regarding the value of human life versus the cost of saving those lives. For example, lowering all speed limits to 20mph would save over 35,000 lives each year. It also would cause a huge quality-of-life issue for average people, and thus such legislation is not ever considered.

But there's some situations where it's just obvious where electing to let thousands of extra people die is wrong, and a nebulous version of "racial justice" definitely falls into that category.

[BCR]

I get you hate the language, but language and what argument their making isn’t important

Is your only issue under 35 front line workers getting vaccinated before the truly elderly? What about 35-65? I know more people suffering still six months after the fact than I know people who have died. To what degree they will end up being on disability remains to be seen. Disability is a long arduous legal process with some random back injury or workplace accident in normal times. We aren’t even into that window yet.