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Thread: Stones livestream player Mike Postle accused of "live superusing"

  1. #401
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Regarding Mac, he ended up in kind of a tough spot. He represents his clients, and not the poker community. That much is true. However, what is also true is that he runs (by his own admission) a "boutique law firm" which primarily caters to poker players. That's an interesting niche he's carved out, but it isn't exactly good for business when he ultimately releases a statement which is likely to be weaponized by alleged cheaters as evidence of exoneration.

    So what happened here?

    Mac was likely aware of limitations in CA law when he filed the case, but it wasn't clear cut. Much of this is up to interpretation by the presiding judge, and a favorable interpretation can lead to a lucrative settlement. Once the case was essentially reduced to rake recovery (back in June), it was basically dead in the water, aside from recovering token monies. However, Mac couldn't have known for sure that this would have happened. Sure, he knew it was a possibility, but I don't hold it against him for reaching for the stars initially.

    At this point, and at all points, his duty to his clients was to get the best settlement possible. Indeed, he is required to act in their interests, and not in his own or that of the greater poker community. From that point of view, he acted reasonably, both in negotiating this moderate settlement AND making the statement that he did regarding Stones/Kuraitis.

    However, I do wonder how this was framed to his clients, when Stones demanded such a strong statement of exoneration. While he ultimately has to do what his clients want, it's up to him to communicate the full issues involved with the settlement.

    Specifically, he should have communicated that, while this settlement exceeds the best they could have done monetarily in court (which is obviously good), it comes at a steep price -- each plaintiff signing his/her name to a statement exonerating Stones/Kuraitis, which would likely be weaponized by the defendants to publicly claim innocence. Additionally, he should have advised his clients that they might face some backlash in the poker community for putting their names on such a statement, given the high-profile nature of this case, and the poker community's strong beliefs regarding the cheating accusations.

    At that point, the clients might have had a bit more to think about besides money. This is different than accepting a settlement for a minor car accident, where there is no publicity or public backlash potential.

    I am wondering if these concerns were communicated to the plaintiffs, or if Mac simply told them that this was the best they were going to do financially, and that it's likely either that or nothing. This, of course, is also true, but isn't the whole story.

    An attorney can also give his opinion to his clients regarding settlement offers. He could say something like, "It's up to you, but personally I don't think this amount of money is worth putting out such a statement about Stones, given the public backlash and implications of this."

    Often clients will do what their attorney advises, and can be easily led in one direction or another.

    I have to imagine that the amount Mac was paid (very likely less than $20k) is peanuts to him. I'm a little surprised that he didn't frame this to clients as the settlement being too costly from a public shame standpoint, with advisement to reject it. However, I will concede that I'm not aware of his communication with his clients about this, so perhaps he did advise them of this, but they chose to take it anyway.

    I do think it's possible that Mac didn't realize that Justin Kuraitis would show up on Twitter and wave this in everyone's faces in trollish fashion, and that the Stones Twitter account (also possibly operated by Justin) would do the same. Perhaps he would have advised differently had he known this.

    There was also a small hole in the settlement which allowed Kuraitis to basically show up on Twitter and say what he wanted, which is exactly what he's doing.

    Kuraitis will be allowed to comment about the litigation and the underlying events, but may not otherwise disclose the terms of this agreement and the forthcoming settlement agreement other than to say that he did not pay any money in connection with the settlement.
    So basically, short of being disallowed from being disclosing the settlement terms, Kuraitis was free to show up on Twitter and bash people, which is exactly what he's doing. Ouch.

    At the same time, Term #18 of the settlement states, "Setting Plaintiffs agree not to make negative or disparaging pubic statements about Stones, its employees, or Kuraitis."

    Term #19 sates that Stones agrees not to make any negative statements about the Plaintiffs, but that term does NOT mention Kuraitis.

     
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      JeffDime: Awesome analysis

  2. #402
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Nice project put together by Bart Hanson. Very good collection of "suspect" hands, with analysis. Much easier to watch this than to try and find the best parts of those super long Joey videos.

    He just released this today.


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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Okay, so here's potentially something else coming down the pike.

    https://twitter.com/poker_thug/status/1306934292673593345


    Some background:

    poker_thug is the same person as poker_grandma. It's a 47-year-old Asian woman named Khou Fang, who is a known friend of Postle's. She now listens to my radio show, apparently.

    She has been trolling people relentlessly (especially Veronica) under her poker_thug account. I have attempted to talk to her privately, but she isn't reasonable and basically just spouts pro-Postle nonsense. I gave up.




    On September 2, she dropped this cryptic tweet about something happening on September 28, which is the anniversary of the date Veronica made the public accusations against Postle.

    https://twitter.com/poker_thug/status/1301400572839432192

    The statute of limitations for defamation is one year in California. Therefore, if any libel/slander lawsuit were to be filed against Veronica for what she tweeted on September 28, 2019, Postle would have to file it by September 28, 2020.

    However, when the documentary talk got going, I figured Septmeber 28 was perhaps the release date for the documentary, and not about a lawsuit. Well, it appears from things Dave Broome has said recently that the documentary is NOT going to be ready anytime near Sept 28, so that's probably not it.

    Today, Khou strongly implied (with her lame poem) that summons will be arriving soon, presumably against those Postle feels wronged him the most.

    It's also possible that Khou is just making all of this up, and is trolling, as per usual.

    Would Postle have a case? Very unlikely. This is for a few reasons:

    1) Postle (and Justin Kuraitis, for that matter) could easily be cast as "limited purpose public figures" for poker, which makes libel/slander claims EXTREMELY difficult if that were to be established. If you are a limited purpose public figure, you can only win a libel/slander suit if the defendants knew they were making false statements at the time they made them. Therefore, even if you were completely wrong in your claim that Postle cheated, as long as you can show that it was likely you really believed it when you said it, you will win as the defendant. A limited purpose public figure is defined as "one who has gained prominence in a particular, limited field, but whose celebrity has not reached an all-encompassing level" or "one who voluntarily becomes a key figure in a particular controversy". Both could be applied to Postle and Kuraitis here, especially Postle. The fact that Postle was even called out on ESPN early in the scandal would make this designation likely.

    2) The truth is always a defense. Almost every expert in poker agreed, from independent anaysis, that Postle cheated. Even if the cheating could not be proven in a court of law, there is enough "truth" here to where Postle would have a very hard time he was being defamed.

    3) Both California and Nevada have anti-SLAPP law on the books, which prevents lawsuits like this from getting very far. Anti-SLAPP allows for quick dismissal of lawsuits filed for the purpose of chilling criticism or speech, and plaintiffs are responsible for defendant's attorney and court costs when an anti-SLAPP motion is successful. (However, if filed in federal court, anti-SLAPP wouldn't work, as it only applies in state courts where it exists as law.)

    4) Given that such a case would be garbage, it's hard to picture an attorney taking this on contingency for Postle.

    With that said, there are a few deep-pocketed targets here:

    - ESPN
    - Scott Van Pelt of ESPN (he did the Postle-bashing segment)
    - Pokernews (they did many articles on this, though it appeared to be more news reporting than editorializing)
    - Doug Polk
    - Joey Ingram

    Polk and Ingram aren't as deep pocketed as the others, but they likely have enough money to where it might be worth it to Postle to take a shot at them. He especially might be hoping to extract some kind of nuisance type settlement out of ESPN and Pokernews.

  4. #404
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Back to the documentary.

    Dave Broome is a legit documentary producer. He's been around for many years, and seems to have done well for himself. He's not just some hack who doesn't care about his reputation.

    That's why this entire thing is baffling. Postle and Kuraitis are very excited for this documentary to be released. That would imply that the documentary is pro-Postle, but then again, this is a common tactic employed by documentary-makers. Remember, Carole Baskin thought that "Tiger King" would portray her as a sympathetic and positive figure, but instead everyone came away believing she murdered her husband. It's very possible that Kuraitis and Postle were played by Broome here, and don't know it yet (which would be hilarious, btw).

    I was recently shown a conversation between Veronica and Broome regarding the documentary. Broome insisted again that this "isn't a propaganda piece of Mike, Justin, or Stones", and that he honestly wants to tell both sides. This is possible.

    But who funded it, and why? Is it possible that Broome is funding it himself, hoping to sell it to Netflix or something? (He's worked with Netflix before.)

    However, Broome has no connection to poker, and people wonder how he got involved in the first place. Would he really waste his company's time producing a story about a niche community, which is unlikely to hold the interest of the general public?

    I'm hearing rumors -- and I must state that these are just rumors -- that a figure somewhat closer to poker is funding this. Watch the below video, at the 34:10 mark.



    "I've been trying to develop a series -- a 10-episode series -- which highlights this [high-stakes poker] space."



    This interview was less than a month ago, on August 26.

    I have been told that Kevin Hart is bankroling a series about fascinating stories in poker world, and that this is simply one episode of it. If this is true, then it makes sense that Broome isn't doing this as a Postle propaganda piece, and would likely approach this neutrally. I don't believe Kevin Hart has any friendship with Postle, Kuraitis, or Stones.

    Developing...

  5. #405
    Silver AhoosierA's Avatar
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    I think this is a pretty good take from another attorney, and someone Druff is familiar with. Jerod Smith.

    I don't believe for a second that Mac believes what he wrote, but he has a job to do....

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Jerod Smith is correct, but that doesn't mean Mac can't give them advice about the consequences of accepting this, given the unusual public nature of the case.

    As I said, this isn't a case over a minor car accident. This one can potentially reflect badly upon anyone who signed that statement, and Mac can and should paint the full picture of the situation (both monetary and non-monetary) to all plaintiffs.

    It is true that Mac would be engaging in malpractice if he refused to present the settlement to his clients, or if he refused to go along with completing the settlement if his clients so desired.

    However, as I said, clients will often go along with their attorney's recommendation, and it would not at all be malpractice to recommend against this, given the potential public backlash for relatively little gain on the plaintiff's part.

    Again, I am not aware of the conversations Mac had with his clients, so I cannot comment upon what he did and didn't say.

    I will say that I think it's unlikely that Mac was motivated by the $15k-$20k he received from this, because that's really not very much money to a successful (or even semi-successful) attorney, and especially not when the settlement will come with some backlash (as this one did).

  7. #407
    Bronze turdzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    Again, I am not aware of the conversations Mac had with his clients, so I cannot comment upon what he did and didn't say.

    When will Mac be a guest on your podcast?

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turdzilla View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    Again, I am not aware of the conversations Mac had with his clients, so I cannot comment upon what he did and didn't say.

    When will Mac be a guest on your podcast?
    Not sure, but if he was, he wouldn't be able to talk about these cases anyway.

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    My wife has a law firm which has probably sued more people in our state than any other attorney. If she's not #1, she's up there.

    Attorneys on contingencies are incentivized to settle (see personal injury attorney / ambulance chaser)

    Attorneys on billable hours are incentivized to air it out (see divorce attorneys)

    It is what it is.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Mac did an op-ed about the situation for Pokernews: https://www.pokernews.com/news/2020/...tion-37987.htm

    I don't disagree with anything he wrote, and you can get some understanding about what went on, if you read between the lines.

    Unfortunately, he couldn't say very much in this op-ed, being the attorney for the plaintiffs in a settled case.

    I have also since come upon some information from one of the 88 plaintiffs who happened to be listening to my show last night.

    This person told me Mac's contingency fee. I will not disclose it, but will say that my 35% assumption was pretty close (though a little bit off). I will say that Mac's contingency fee was very reasonable and standard.

    Furthermore, I was also told that Mac recommended to plaintiffs (via e-mail) to take the settlement. This is where I respectfully disagree with Mac. I do not feel that he should have recommended they take this nominal sum of money (low $400s after Mac's portion), given the public/social media implications, and that Stones/Kuraitis would likely (and did) weaponize the statement to claim exoneration.

    Had I been in Mac's shoes, I would have been forced to present the settlement to the plaintiffs, but I would have recommended against it.

    This, of course, is a matter of opinion, but I think too much was given up, in exchange for too little.

    I will agree that Mac recovered more money than otherwise possible given the limitations of CA law, so I have no criticism of him from that front. The failures on the monetary front were due to California law immaturity, not any failure in Mac's representation.

     
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      Sludge: Why don’t we just call it 33.3333%?

  11. #411
    Bronze turdzilla's Avatar
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    The case had almost nothing to do with poker. It was based on the illicit use of confidential information. Closer to insider trading than a poker game. The use of a "poker" attorney was a mistake from the beginning. I get the impression that Mac decided not to spend a penny on outside professionals to review Stones' investigation. He said they cooperated, with whom? His expert?

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  13. #413
    Bronze turdzilla's Avatar
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    It would appear a knowledgeable attorney would know that gambling losses are not recoverable in CA and sued for fraud. The fact that it was a poker podcast is not relevant if there was an illegal theft of information.
    There was no gambling loss since Postle was not risking anything. He knew the outcome like a fixed game.

  14. #414
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turdzilla View Post
    It would appear a knowledgeable attorney would know that gambling losses are not recoverable in CA and sued for fraud. The fact that it was a poker podcast is not relevant if there was an illegal theft of information.
    There was no gambling loss since Postle was not risking anything. He knew the outcome like a fixed game.
    I believe fraud was one of the causes of action, but it all fell under the umbrella of recovering gambling losses.

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    Mac the lawyer seems like an insightful guest and brings a lot of good info to the table. I think it is great when he answers some questions on the show.

    But this case makes me think twice.

    The only winner here is Mac. Everyone got peanuts. Mac got 10-15K. Let's not mince words here. This IS a lot of money for very limited work. This is the sort of work that is bread and butter for several of my highly paid lawyer friends here in NYC. It adds up quick, so let's not discount this as if it's some small sum. It is not.

    But here is the thing that gets me: Mac is supposedly an expert on gambling laws. He is in Nevada, right next to the California jurisdiction and presumably has some legal experience in CA. But he didn't seem to be aware of the most basic limitation of California law when it comes to gambling matters. The revelation of California law might be news to you and I, but it really should not be to a gambling specialty lawyer. Am I wrong in this presumption? Oh... and even to my unknowledgable self - having no legal background or training - I WAS aware that there are very big limitations when it comes to gambling debts. Was Mac not aware of this basic gambling law fact, or was it part of some bigger strategy?

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Mac has never been on my show.

    The lawyer we have on sometimes is Eric Bensamochan, who has nothing to do with this case.

  17. #417
    Diamond Tellafriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apwiz View Post
    Mac the lawyer seems like an insightful guest and brings a lot of good info to the table. I think it is great when he answers some questions on the show.

    But this case makes me think twice.

    The only winner here is Mac. Everyone got peanuts. Mac got 10-15K. Let's not mince words here. This IS a lot of money for very limited work. This is the sort of work that is bread and butter for several of my highly paid lawyer friends here in NYC. It adds up quick, so let's not discount this as if it's some small sum. It is not.

    But here is the thing that gets me: Mac is supposedly an expert on gambling laws. He is in Nevada, right next to the California jurisdiction and presumably has some legal experience in CA. But he didn't seem to be aware of the most basic limitation of California law when it comes to gambling matters. The revelation of California law might be news to you and I, but it really should not be to a gambling specialty lawyer. Am I wrong in this presumption? Oh... and even to my unknowledgable self - having no legal background or training - I WAS aware that there are very big limitations when it comes to gambling debts. Was Mac not aware of this basic gambling law fact, or was it part of some bigger strategy?

    Was gonna red but decided to simply respond w this:

    $15k for having to deal w 60+ clients is a losing proposition. You could not be more wrong.

     
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      Dan Druff: yep

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    Platinum JeffDime's Avatar
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    Druff, I caught up on much of last week’s radio and the coverage was great. It was nice that Veronica called in and I could not agree with her more about JFK. You have been so thorough, there isn’t a whole lot I can add.

    I know Mac was in a very difficult position. I was thinking about the affidavit signed in the Bill O’Reilly case where he paid out a reported $32 Million Dollar Settlement (I wonder what the hell could of went on). This is the kind of language I wish Mac could have negotiated. Something like “We will no longer make the allegations asserted in the complaint” would of sufficed, rather than basically an exoneration of JFK.

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    Maybe Postle/JFK are Narcissistic enough to think that the Poker community would do anything but wipe their backside with that statement. It was the same Narcissism that made them “allegedly” think they could carry the cheating for so long without anyone doing shit. The male commentators knew, but for the most part were cowards. Veronica was the hero here and she continues to pay the price through these awful attacks. It sickens me that the Postle Propagandists continue to smear Veronica. In a perfect world she would be suing for slander, but we are in far from a perfect world.

    This whole thing and the Postlable Postle Mockumentary are really for those outside the poker/gambling world. To portray us like some blood thirsty mob trying to burn Postle at the stake. Hopefully guys like you and some others can get in some mainstream press explaining why he was 100% cheating. Galfond as well.

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