Is playing Pokerstars from the USA using a VPN unethical?

[klinz]

Daniel Negreanu recently posted a poll on Twitter asking: "Do you consider players using a VPN to play online poker from the US to play on sites that forbid play from the US to be cheating?"

76% of roughly 16k voters said "No".

Shane Schleger was prominently voicing his opinions against the majority. Could be a good guest for radio.

Links:

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/ShaneSchleger/status/1152654888590929921 (including fake Jefferson quote).

[sah_24]

Shane and Norman Chad are correct, it is cheating but obv not a massive EV scam lol. Nevermind the fact that Pokerstars will catch you, it is just a matter of time

[duped_samaritan]

I don't think the fact that it's very strictly enforced should affect whether or not it's 'ethical'.

If it were just in the terms, but never enforced, I guarantee most or all of the poker players claiming it's 'unethical' would have a different opinion.

[sah_24]

I don't think the fact that it's very strictly enforced should affect whether or not it's 'ethical'.

If it were just in the terms, but never enforced, I guarantee most or all of the poker players claiming it's 'unethical' would have a different opinion.

I would 100% be playing on stars if I wouldn't get caught, but it's still a form of cheating / unethical

[Dan Druff]

It's not cheating.

Cheating gives you an unfair advantage in play. Here are some forms of cheating in poker:

- Superusing (seeing hole cards of opponents online)
- Card marking
- Collusion
- Soft play
- Bottom-deck dealing
- Mulit-accounting (on sites where it's not allowed)
- Ratholing (sneaking money off your stack so it's no longer in play)
- Hiding bigger denomination chips in play until it's advantageous to show them

While some of these are worse than others, all of them create an unfair disadvantage for opponents.

VPNing is not cheating. You get no advantage over opponents by doing so. You simply get to play poker from a location where you're not allowed to do so.

Let's take the US/Canada example.

Say you are 10 feet from the border between US and Canada, and on the US side. If you play on Pokerstars there, you are breaking the rule of no US players. If you step 10 feet over and go across the Canadian border, you are legally playing on Pokerstars. So what's the difference to your opponents? None. You have no more advantage standing on the US side of the border than you do on the Canadian side.

It's simply a matter of rules. In one instance you're breaking the rules set by the government, and in one case you are not. From a poker standpoint, it's all the same thing.

So it's not "cheating".

However, it is unfair to both the site and other players within your country. That is, you are doing something that others in your country aren't allowed to do. So if the games are good, you are getting the ability to play there while everyone else in your country following the rules doesn't get that opportunity. It's not cheating but it's unfair. That's why I have no sympathy for VPNers who are caught and have their $ confiscated. You're also creating a potential legal burden for the online poker site, if it's found that you were playing from the US and they failed to catch you for a long time.

[ftpjesus]

It's not cheating.

Cheating gives you an unfair advantage in play. Here are some forms of cheating in poker:

- Superusing (seeing hole cards of opponents online)
- Card marking
- Collusion
- Soft play
- Bottom-deck dealing
- Mulit-accounting (on sites where it's not allowed)
- Ratholing (sneaking money off your stack so it's no longer in play)
- Hiding bigger denomination chips in play until it's advantageous to show them

While some of these are worse than others, all of them create an unfair disadvantage for opponents.

VPNing is not cheating. You get no advantage over opponents by doing so. You simply get to play poker from a location where you're not allowed to do so.

Let's take the US/Canada example.

Say you are 10 feet from the border between US and Canada, and on the US side. If you play on Pokerstars there, you are breaking the rule of no US players. If you step 10 feet over and go across the Canadian border, you are legally playing on Pokerstars. So what's the difference to your opponents? None. You have no more advantage standing on the US side of the border than you do on the Canadian side.

It's simply a matter of rules. In one instance you're breaking the rules set by the government, and in one case you are not. From a poker standpoint, it's all the same thing.

So it's not "cheating".

However, it is unfair to both the site and other players within your country. That is, you are doing something that others in your country aren't allowed to do. So if the games are good, you are getting the ability to play there while everyone else in your country following the rules doesn't get that opportunity. It's not cheating but it's unfair. That's why I have no sympathy for VPNers who are caught and have their $ confiscated. You're also creating a potential legal burden for the online poker site, if it's found that you were playing from the US and they failed to catch you for a long time.

I agree with most of what you said there Druff but the last sentence Its not like PS doesn't do their best to catch folks using VPNs but its like many other things many times the smartest eggs know how stay ahead of the game so to speak.. I know a guy who just uses Nord VPN with the deadman switch running meaning if the VPN drops it completely shuts off the computer's internet connection completely if the VPN looses its remote connection and hasn't had issues as of yet.. Who knows how long itll last hes only playing micro at the moment and hasn't cashed out yet due to still experimenting..