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Thread: *** OFFICIAL 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Race Thread ***

  1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    So literally no proof of any kind. And please link me a story tying the email to the final report. You know that email that started this whole exchange.

    The new whistleblower hasn't provided any proof. Nothing.

    The "new" revelation about tankers being placed is the Russian narrative from the beginning right after the attacks. It was thoroughly checked at the time and there was nothing to indicate it was remotely likely.

    Also once again no one listens to OPCW and they can't enforce anything. US doesn't rely on Youtube videos for intelligence. And yup this got stupid a long time ago. US tracks the airspace, they have satellites, informants, wiretaps and quite a few other ways for gathering information.

    im sure its all a big misunderstanding and we can get this all cleared up with an epoch times article.
    Waiting enthusiastically. It's always a delight arguing with people that don't seem to have any idea how Russian disinfo shuffle works. Oh well found a decent video that goes into the background of the whistleblowers starting around the 7min mark...



    ...details change, but everything else stays the same. It's still absurd someone has hard time believing Assad might not be a nice person, considering they confiscated 1300 tons of precursor chemicals from Assad in 2013.

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post

    No. They were saying that the published version was completely distorted and redacted to fit a narrative that would be in line w/ the US counter-attacking and furthering their regime-change efforts.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...l_attacks.html - this is a new revelation that further points to the US gov't's efforts to distort the truth.

    The US was NOT in the ground where the supposed chemical attack was, and did attack after being shown footage of people choking, etc. That does not strenghten your case that the attack was a good idea, nor does it disprove the fact that the OPCW report that came after was fudged.

    They are not only arguing about what chemicals were used. The new revelations point to the "gas" canisters being MANUALLY PLACED, NOT dropped by planes, which points 100% to a faked attack, to justify regime-change by western gov't's.
    So literally no proof of any kind. And please link me a story tying the email to the final report. You know that email that started this whole exchange.

    The new whistleblower hasn't provided any proof. Nothing.

    The "new" revelation about tankers being placed is the Russian narrative from the beginning right after the attacks. It was thoroughly checked at the time and there was nothing to indicate it was remotely likely.

    Also once again no one listens to OPCW and they can't enforce anything. US doesn't rely on Youtube videos for intelligence. And yup this got stupid a long time ago. US tracks the airspace, they have satellites, informants, wiretaps and quite a few other ways for gathering information.
    They absolutely have provided proof and it has been confirmed that the final OPCW report intentionally omitted information that proved that the canisters were manually placed, i.e. it was a frame-job.

    Start here at 5:40 for OPCW timeline:



    If you are trusting US intelligence, which has it in their interests to perpetuate endless war + keep the war-machine going, and which also has in their interests to get rid of Assad and get that oil pipeline built from Turkey -> Qatar THROUGH SYRIA, then you are seriously mixed up.

    The US is a bad actor. I'm sure you know this.

  3. #1443
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post


    im sure its all a big misunderstanding and we can get this all cleared up with an epoch times article.
    Waiting enthusiastically. It's always a delight arguing with people that don't seem to have any idea how Russian disinfo shuffle works. Oh well found a decent video that goes into the background of the whistleblowers starting around the 7min mark...



    ...details change, but everything else stays the same. It's still absurd someone has hard time believing Assad might not be a nice person, considering they confiscated 1300 tons of precursor chemicals from Assad in 2013.
    Of course Assad is bad. Nobody has disputed that. So are most dictators of these shitty countries. And we shouldn't topple them, as we did with Saddam in 2003 and Gaddafi in 2011, because it'll become even worse. Is that unclear to you?

  4. #1444
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    question; since we are all on the same page that the US and Russia are very much still in an ongoing struggle for global dominance, what do we think happens if we fold our hand and walk away?

    im not being cute, mind you, im asking for the advocates of this in this thread to game theory for me and describe how a marketplace where the price of everything from rare earth minerals to oil is dictated by hostile foreign powers.

    same general note; does this new foreign policy shift signal a withdrawal from NATO? are we no longer honoring our defense treaties with NATO partners? what happens to them if we dont?

    points will be awarded for solution oriented responses, points will be subtracted for shitlord caliber memespeak about 'conglomerates' and 'military industry complex' and so on.

    because im hearing a lot from team tulsi about how great it would be to dump our current foreign policy obligations but nothing about how to mitigate the fallout (literally and figuratively) of What Happens Next. which is weird because the same people generally love to point out how irresponsible it is for bernie to suggest people be able to get health care and college educations as a human right, which is like a dew drop in the ocean compared to the cost of ceding control of the global theatre in one fell policy swoop.
    I don't think anyone is advocating walking away from anywhere. What is being advocated is diplomacy instead of more war, and stopping the US policy of subversion/toppling of these evil dictators. It's been done so many times, and has led to catastrophe every single time. The CIA has harmed the world so much by doing exactly this. Could you provide me one example where it has helped any country?

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    I don't know about NATO but I know that Tulsi wants to stay in it, and does want to honor defense treaties w/ it. I also agree w/ Trump's point that countries must pay their fair share.

    Nobody is talking about dumping foreign policy obligations. What is being talked about is stopping the policy of being the world's police when a world police (INTERPOL) already exists. I think almost every other country would agree. The US can exert its influence in ways besides war and more death/destruction.

  5. #1445
    Still waiting on that "Russian bot" evidence, besides just, "People are saying."

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  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    question; since we are all on the same page that the US and Russia are very much still in an ongoing struggle for global dominance, what do we think happens if we fold our hand and walk away?

    im not being cute, mind you, im asking for the advocates of this in this thread to game theory for me and describe how a marketplace where the price of everything from rare earth minerals to oil is dictated by hostile foreign powers.

    same general note; does this new foreign policy shift signal a withdrawal from NATO? are we no longer honoring our defense treaties with NATO partners? what happens to them if we dont?

    points will be awarded for solution oriented responses, points will be subtracted for shitlord caliber memespeak about 'conglomerates' and 'military industry complex' and so on.

    because im hearing a lot from team tulsi about how great it would be to dump our current foreign policy obligations but nothing about how to mitigate the fallout (literally and figuratively) of What Happens Next. which is weird because the same people generally love to point out how irresponsible it is for bernie to suggest people be able to get health care and college educations as a human right, which is like a dew drop in the ocean compared to the cost of ceding control of the global theatre in one fell policy swoop.
    I don't think anyone is advocating walking away from anywhere. What is being advocated is diplomacy instead of more war, and stopping the US policy of subversion/toppling of these evil dictators. It's been done so many times, and has led to catastrophe every single time. The CIA has harmed the world so much by doing exactly this. Could you provide me one example where it has helped any country?

    Name:  DdB-FS5XcAA2ayX.png
Views: 112
Size:  180.6 KB

    I don't know about NATO but I know that Tulsi wants to stay in it, and does want to honor defense treaties w/ it. I also agree w/ Trump's point that countries must pay their fair share.

    Nobody is talking about dumping foreign policy obligations. What is being talked about is stopping the policy of being the world's police when a world police (INTERPOL) already exists. I think almost every other country would agree. The US can exert its influence in ways besides war and more death/destruction.

    Bro, INTERPOL couldn't stop Gaspar LeMarc.
    It is in my bones which sucks so can make it hard to move sometimes. Trying to spend as much time with friends and family.

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    So literally no proof of any kind. And please link me a story tying the email to the final report. You know that email that started this whole exchange.

    The new whistleblower hasn't provided any proof. Nothing.

    The "new" revelation about tankers being placed is the Russian narrative from the beginning right after the attacks. It was thoroughly checked at the time and there was nothing to indicate it was remotely likely.

    Also once again no one listens to OPCW and they can't enforce anything. US doesn't rely on Youtube videos for intelligence. And yup this got stupid a long time ago. US tracks the airspace, they have satellites, informants, wiretaps and quite a few other ways for gathering information.
    They absolutely have provided proof and it has been confirmed that the final OPCW report intentionally omitted information that proved that the canisters were manually placed, i.e. it was a frame-job.

    Start here at 5:40 for OPCW timeline:



    If you are trusting US intelligence, which has it in their interests to perpetuate endless war + keep the war-machine going, and which also has in their interests to get rid of Assad and get that oil pipeline built from Turkey -> Qatar THROUGH SYRIA, then you are seriously mixed up.

    The US is a bad actor. I'm sure you know this.
    Oh dear. That's not proof. Uncorroborated and barely verified. And yea there was lots of information that was omitted because of the way how OPCW works. At the time they were not assigning blame to anyone. It was outside their scope because of the Russian veto from 2017.

    I don't have to trust US intelligence because the other side isn't providing any evidence. And all this is before any thought about motive for staging anything or thinking about the logistics of it. Does it seem likely the anti-Assad forces were willing to stage 80-300 incidents (depending who you ask) and kill 10k+ members. Like how the fuck does that conspiracy work out.

    Why did Assad have 41 facilities preparing and storing chemical weapons for no reason. They just happened to have 1300 tonnes of precursor chemicals for nerve agents. Over a 1000 munitions meant for dispersing nerve agents. This isn't just speculation. They actually confiscated all this crap after 2013 when Assad promised to play nice. Are you willing to take the word of man that had stored 1300 tonnes materials for chemical weapons?

    Oh yea and what the other side has provided is 2 stories that have been copy pasted thousand times. No one that have been pushing those have bothered to verify any of it.

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    Waiting enthusiastically. It's always a delight arguing with people that don't seem to have any idea how Russian disinfo shuffle works. Oh well found a decent video that goes into the background of the whistleblowers starting around the 7min mark...



    ...details change, but everything else stays the same. It's still absurd someone has hard time believing Assad might not be a nice person, considering they confiscated 1300 tons of precursor chemicals from Assad in 2013.
    Of course Assad is bad. Nobody has disputed that. So are most dictators of these shitty countries. And we shouldn't topple them, as we did with Saddam in 2003 and Gaddafi in 2011, because it'll become even worse. Is that unclear to you?
    Did it get better when US left Syria? Still waiting your reasoning how leaving Syria makes sense when you're looking to invade Syria. And then there's of course the part where most of the time US was in Syria they weren't fighting Assad's troops. Mostly they spent their time fighting against Assad's enemies. Interesting tactic i'd say.

  9. #1449
    Nova Scotia's REAL #1 Webcam DJ sonatine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    Still waiting on that "Russian bot" evidence, besides just, "People are saying."

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    i cant help you with this, if you live in a world where you dont know about russian influence campaigns on social media then its kind of a wrap. you can google it, i suppose. but to sit here and demand proof is basically cult playbook 101 and maybe if i hadnt been alive for the moonies and all that shit, id bite.

    thanks for the response to my other post btw, its unfortunate that you seem to be super big into blaming the cia for everything while ignoring the efforts of foreign powers but given that you also managed to ignore the actual question, as youve made a habit of in this thread, im not going to get worked up about it.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

  10. #1450
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post

    Of course Assad is bad. Nobody has disputed that. So are most dictators of these shitty countries. And we shouldn't topple them, as we did with Saddam in 2003 and Gaddafi in 2011, because it'll become even worse. Is that unclear to you?
    Did it get better when US left Syria? Still waiting your reasoning how leaving Syria makes sense when you're looking to invade Syria. And then there's of course the part where most of the time US was in Syria they weren't fighting Assad's troops. Mostly they spent their time fighting against Assad's enemies. Interesting tactic i'd say.
    Didn't the US basically pull back from the Syria/Turkey border really rashly and clumsily? Might there be a better way to do it?

  11. #1451
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    Still waiting on that "Russian bot" evidence, besides just, "People are saying."

    Name:  zzzzzz.jpg
Views: 113
Size:  50.6 KB

    i cant help you with this, if you live in a world where you dont know about russian influence campaigns on social media then its kind of a wrap. you can google it, i suppose. but to sit here and demand proof is basically cult playbook 101 and maybe if i hadnt been alive for the moonies and all that shit, id bite.

    thanks for the response to my other post btw, its unfortunate that you seem to be super big into blaming the cia for everything while ignoring the efforts of foreign powers but given that you also managed to ignore the actual question, as youve made a habit of in this thread, im not going to get worked up about it.
    "to sit here and demand proof is basically cult playbook 101"

    LOL - ASKING FOR PROOF IS CULT PLAYBOOK 101. PROOF IS FOR CULTISTS! JUST ACCEPT MSM (SONATINE) W/OUT PUSHING BACK!

    Also: holy shit. You are accusing me of ignoring actual questions? When have I done that one time in this thread? That's all you've done this entire time. Smear, be confronted, then pivot to a new smear w/out acknowledging the rebuttal. Repeat. Anyone can read this.

  12. #1452
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post

    They absolutely have provided proof and it has been confirmed that the final OPCW report intentionally omitted information that proved that the canisters were manually placed, i.e. it was a frame-job.

    Start here at 5:40 for OPCW timeline:



    If you are trusting US intelligence, which has it in their interests to perpetuate endless war + keep the war-machine going, and which also has in their interests to get rid of Assad and get that oil pipeline built from Turkey -> Qatar THROUGH SYRIA, then you are seriously mixed up.

    The US is a bad actor. I'm sure you know this.
    Oh dear. That's not proof. Uncorroborated and barely verified. And yea there was lots of information that was omitted because of the way how OPCW works. At the time they were not assigning blame to anyone. It was outside their scope because of the Russian veto from 2017.

    I don't have to trust US intelligence because the other side isn't providing any evidence. And all this is before any thought about motive for staging anything or thinking about the logistics of it. Does it seem likely the anti-Assad forces were willing to stage 80-300 incidents (depending who you ask) and kill 10k+ members. Like how the fuck does that conspiracy work out.

    Why did Assad have 41 facilities preparing and storing chemical weapons for no reason. They just happened to have 1300 tonnes of precursor chemicals for nerve agents. Over a 1000 munitions meant for dispersing nerve agents. This isn't just speculation. They actually confiscated all this crap after 2013 when Assad promised to play nice. Are you willing to take the word of man that had stored 1300 tonnes materials for chemical weapons?

    Oh yea and what the other side has provided is 2 stories that have been copy pasted thousand times. No one that have been pushing those have bothered to verify any of it.
    The OPCW purposely omitting the fact that the canisters were manually placed (i.e., this was a false flag) doesn't ring any alarm bells for you?

    And this isn't about trusting Assad. It's about trusting the evidence of what happened (or didn't happen).

  13. #1453
    I am still flabbergasted by the audacity of the lie that I "also managed to ignore the actual question, as [I've] made a habit of in this thread."

    That is exactly what you do, and exactly what I don't do. That is why I've told you directly that you behave without honor, and you conduct yourself like a coward.

  14. #1454
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    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    I am still flabbergasted by the audacity of the lie that I "also managed to ignore the actual question, as [I've] made a habit of in this thread."

    That is exactly what you do, and exactly what I don't do. That is why I've told you directly that you behave without honor, and you conduct yourself like a coward.
    Leave Sonatine alone, shes a sweetheart. Im sure this is a big misunderstanding.

  15. #1455
    Nova Scotia's REAL #1 Webcam DJ sonatine's Avatar
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    'diplomacy' as a response to what i asked is like saying youre going to talk to your therapist as a solution to school shootings.

    you took a question about the power vacuum your response would create, while presenting that response as both the solution and relevant to my question.

    the competition includes china, russia, and the IMF, all of whom are making plays on every natural resource we need for everything from cell phones, to cpus, to powering the vehicles that take those products to our door.

    diplomacy addresses us getting absolutely gouged because we no longer have a seat at the african minerals table how, exactly?

    let me dumb it down; what do we do when diplomacy fails? asymmetrical military response? what does the madness of queen tulsi dictate as a solution when we beg for a discount on iridium and get told, in mandarin, to suck a dick up until we hiccup?
    Last edited by sonatine; 12-01-2019 at 06:48 PM.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    Oh dear. That's not proof. Uncorroborated and barely verified. And yea there was lots of information that was omitted because of the way how OPCW works. At the time they were not assigning blame to anyone. It was outside their scope because of the Russian veto from 2017.

    I don't have to trust US intelligence because the other side isn't providing any evidence. And all this is before any thought about motive for staging anything or thinking about the logistics of it. Does it seem likely the anti-Assad forces were willing to stage 80-300 incidents (depending who you ask) and kill 10k+ members. Like how the fuck does that conspiracy work out.

    Why did Assad have 41 facilities preparing and storing chemical weapons for no reason. They just happened to have 1300 tonnes of precursor chemicals for nerve agents. Over a 1000 munitions meant for dispersing nerve agents. This isn't just speculation. They actually confiscated all this crap after 2013 when Assad promised to play nice. Are you willing to take the word of man that had stored 1300 tonnes materials for chemical weapons?

    Oh yea and what the other side has provided is 2 stories that have been copy pasted thousand times. No one that have been pushing those have bothered to verify any of it.
    The OPCW purposely omitting the fact that the canisters were manually placed (i.e., this was a false flag) doesn't ring any alarm bells for you?

    And this isn't about trusting Assad. It's about trusting the evidence of what happened (or didn't happen).
    Lol there isn't any credible evidence that canisters were manually placed. Trusting what evidence?

    Oh and you missed about 7 questions about the logistics of this whole operation, but don't worry about that i have a new fun thought chain for you to follow.

    Do you believe that in 2011, 2012 and 2013 opposition forced staged chemical weapons attacks in an effort for the coalition forces to confiscate Assad's arsenal of chemical weapons? Then continued staging attacks in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 just so US would bomb an empty airstrip. Then follow 2018 with other staged attacks so coalition would bomb 3 empty chemical weapons manufacturing facilities? Does that seem a bit excessive for practically no tangible gain? Like how incompetent this conspiracy is in your mind? Did it take US 8 years to not invade Iraq? In my mind that happened a little bit faster.

  17. #1457
    Gold duped_samaritan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post


    i cant help you with this, if you live in a world where you dont know about russian influence campaigns on social media then its kind of a wrap. you can google it, i suppose. but to sit here and demand proof is basically cult playbook 101 and maybe if i hadnt been alive for the moonies and all that shit, id bite.

    thanks for the response to my other post btw, its unfortunate that you seem to be super big into blaming the cia for everything while ignoring the efforts of foreign powers but given that you also managed to ignore the actual question, as youve made a habit of in this thread, im not going to get worked up about it.
    "to sit here and demand proof is basically cult playbook 101"

    LOL - ASKING FOR PROOF IS CULT PLAYBOOK 101. PROOF IS FOR CULTISTS! JUST ACCEPT MSM (SONATINE) W/OUT PUSHING BACK!

    Also: holy shit. You are accusing me of ignoring actual questions? When have I done that one time in this thread? That's all you've done this entire time. Smear, be confronted, then pivot to a new smear w/out acknowledging the rebuttal. Repeat. Anyone can read this.
    Demanding proof is #1 in the play books of flat earthers, anti vaxers, climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, moon landing riggies etc. Tons of proof is public for all of the things they think are or aren't true. Bring one piece of evidence to their attention and you'll be having a completely unrelated but equally stupid argument 2 minutes later.

     
    Comments
      
      gimmick: yup

  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    'diplomacy' as a response to what i asked is like saying youre going to talk to your therapist as a solution to school shootings.

    you took a question about the power vacuum your response would create, while presenting that response as both the solution and relevant to my question.

    the competition includes china, russia, and the IMF, all of whom are making plays on every natural resource we need for everything from cell phones, to cpus, to powering the vehicles that take those products to our door.

    diplomacy addresses us getting absolutely gouged because we no longer have a seat at the african minerals table how, exactly?

    let me dumb it down; what do we do when diplomacy fails? asymmetrical military response? what does the madness of queen tulsi dictate as a solution when we beg for a discount on iridium and get told, in mandarin, to suck a dick up until we hiccup?
    Railing against regime-change war does not equate to withdrawing from the world stage. It means to stop undermining and toppling foreign governments, and to stop creating instability in bloodshed.

    Is China engaged in ONE regime-change war at the moment? Despite its not being in involved in any regime change, is it still "making major plays on every natural resource we need"? How is it doing that without war? Is it able to fill the bloodshed vacuum with something less violent? Is China being "gouged" for its lack of war-waging?

    I obv cannot speak for Tulsi, but I'd hope that the US would, in good faith (LOL), attempt to help countries manage their own resources, instead of having them plundered / stolen. High hopes! She speaks briefly on it here: https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/sta...75747970056192

  19. #1459
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by diggydow View Post

    The OPCW purposely omitting the fact that the canisters were manually placed (i.e., this was a false flag) doesn't ring any alarm bells for you?

    And this isn't about trusting Assad. It's about trusting the evidence of what happened (or didn't happen).
    Lol there isn't any credible evidence that canisters were manually placed. Trusting what evidence?

    Oh and you missed about 7 questions about the logistics of this whole operation, but don't worry about that i have a new fun thought chain for you to follow.

    Do you believe that in 2011, 2012 and 2013 opposition forced staged chemical weapons attacks in an effort for the coalition forces to confiscate Assad's arsenal of chemical weapons? Then continued staging attacks in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 just so US would bomb an empty airstrip. Then follow 2018 with other staged attacks so coalition would bomb 3 empty chemical weapons manufacturing facilities? Does that seem a bit excessive for practically no tangible gain? Like how incompetent this conspiracy is in your mind? Did it take US 8 years to not invade Iraq? In my mind that happened a little bit faster.
    Trusting the evidence presented by the OPCW whistleblowers, which was purposely ommitted from the final report, in order to produce something more in line w/ the goal of taking out Assad.

    Can you tell me about the 2011 - 2018 chemical attacks? I don't know much about them. Also, the US (CIA) has been in Syria since 2012, and has armed Al-Qaeda and ISIS ("rebels").

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by duped_samaritan View Post

    Demanding proof is #1 in the play books of flat earthers, anti vaxers, climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, moon landing riggies etc. Tons of proof is public for all of the things they think are or aren't true. Bring one piece of evidence to their attention and you'll be having a completely unrelated but equally stupid argument 2 minutes later.
    Okay, asking for proof of a claim that Tulsi's support is made up of all bots means I'm a conspiracy theorist and very close to being a flat-earther.

    Makes sense.

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