*** OFFICIAL 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Race Thread ***

[Tellafriend]

I'm not sure of wait times in Europe but in Canada they are very long. My wife needs an MRI on her back, family doc referred her to a specialist, we are on week 6 waiting for a call back and after that scheduling of the MRI averages about 18 weeks. If she needs surgery there's another long wait period, usually another 16-18 weeks. A lot of people here in Alberta will choose to pay and have surgeries done in the USA to avoid the long wait times.

It differs from country to country but usually there is a wait time for non acute tests and operations. We also have private option in Finland if you want something to happen fast. The 4 month wait really only applies to MRI type of deals. You can get blood work done in about 15mins and get results in a week. You might have to wait to see a specialist for a month or two (for the first time), but that's after a doctor has seen you.

mris are not a big deal at all and shouldn't take more than a week or two at most to have. they can spin those magnets 24 hours a day if they wanted.

[Dan Druff]

It differs from country to country but usually there is a wait time for non acute tests and operations. We also have private option in Finland if you want something to happen fast. The 4 month wait really only applies to MRI type of deals. You can get blood work done in about 15mins and get results in a week. You might have to wait to see a specialist for a month or two (for the first time), but that's after a doctor has seen you.

mris are not a big deal at all and shouldn't take more than a week or two at most to have. they can spin those magnets 24 hours a day if they wanted.

Not if a million people try to sign up for them for every little issue because they're freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee (well, free to them)

[gimmick]

It differs from country to country but usually there is a wait time for non acute tests and operations. We also have private option in Finland if you want something to happen fast. The 4 month wait really only applies to MRI type of deals. You can get blood work done in about 15mins and get results in a week. You might have to wait to see a specialist for a month or two (for the first time), but that's after a doctor has seen you.

mris are not a big deal at all and shouldn't take more than a week or two at most to have. they can spin those magnets 24 hours a day if they wanted.

If there's any urgency it's faster. That's basically how the entire universal healthcare system works. That's how we get equal results to US with half the cost.

[gimmick]

mris are not a big deal at all and shouldn't take more than a week or two at most to have. they can spin those magnets 24 hours a day if they wanted.

Not if a million people try to sign up for them for every little issue because they're freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee (well, free to them)

Do i need to mention that no country does this?

[Dan Druff]

mris are not a big deal at all and shouldn't take more than a week or two at most to have. they can spin those magnets 24 hours a day if they wanted.

If there's any urgency it's faster. That's basically how the entire universal healthcare system works. That's how we get equal results to US with half the cost.

You don't get equal results, though.

What is "urgency"? You have to do something or you're going to die or suffer severe disability?

What about something very uncomfortable and highly unpleasant? No big deal to wait 4 months, right?

Also you don't realize that a lot of the "reduced cost" would be lost if we tried to convert our existing system to socialized medicine without a severe alteration of the billing structure. Which even Bernie isn't planning to do.

[Dan Druff]

I just went through something in 2018 which was very unpleasant and uncomfortable, but not life threatening.

People in the Facebook groups for LPR/GERD from other countries were super frustrated that us Yankees get to see ENT specialists and get tests quicky, while they had to wait 4+ months.

This wasn't just people in England, either. It was pretty much everywhere.

These weren't political discussions. These were people who just wanted to see a doctor, get tested, and get better. It was very eye-opening.

[Dan Druff]

Also a bunch of them were getting denied endoscopies, whereas everyone in the US was getting them without issue (and quickly).

Half da cost tho!!!

[gimmick]

If there's any urgency it's faster. That's basically how the entire universal healthcare system works. That's how we get equal results to US with half the cost.

You don't get equal results, though.

What is "urgency"? You have to do something or you're going to die or suffer severe disability?

What about something very uncomfortable and highly unpleasant? No big deal to wait 4 months, right?

Also you don't realize that a lot of the "reduced cost" would be lost if we tried to convert our existing system to socialized medicine without a severe alteration of the billing structure. Which even Bernie isn't planning to do.

I was being nice when i said equal results. We get far better results.

[gimmick]

I just went through something in 2018 which was very unpleasant and uncomfortable, but not life threatening.

People in the Facebook groups for LPR/GERD from other countries were super frustrated that us Yankees get to see ENT specialists and get tests quicky, while they had to wait 4+ months.

This wasn't just people in England, either. It was pretty much everywhere.

These weren't political discussions. These were people who just wanted to see a doctor, get tested, and get better. It was very eye-opening.

In what world does your experience have anything to do with what average American has access to?

[gimmick]

From the article i linked earlier...

"nearly 30 percent of U.S. doctors reported that their patients have difficulty getting a specialized test, compared with only 11 percent and 15 percent of doctors in Australia and Sweden, respectively"...and....

"in the United States, 4 percent of patients reported waiting four months or longer for nonemergency surgery, compared with only 2 percent of French patients and 0 percent of German patients".

[gimmick]

And then the specialists...

"For specialist appointments, the situation is even worse: 6 percent of U.S. patients reported waiting two months or longer for an appointment, compared with only 4 percent of French patients and 3 percent of German patients"

[limitles]

mris are not a big deal at all and shouldn't take more than a week or two at most to have. they can spin those magnets 24 hours a day if they wanted.

If there's any urgency it's faster. That's basically how the entire universal healthcare system works. That's how we get equal results to US with half the cost.

This is one aspect overlooked/ignored by many Americans. Universal is the other

[Dan Druff]

I just went through something in 2018 which was very unpleasant and uncomfortable, but not life threatening.

People in the Facebook groups for LPR/GERD from other countries were super frustrated that us Yankees get to see ENT specialists and get tests quicky, while they had to wait 4+ months.

This wasn't just people in England, either. It was pretty much everywhere.

These weren't political discussions. These were people who just wanted to see a doctor, get tested, and get better. It was very eye-opening.

In what world does your experience have anything to do with what average American has access to?

I don't have any special access.

Any American who has insurance has no worse healthcare access than I do -- in fact, they have much better access if they're not on an individual plan like I am.

[Dan Druff]

From the article i linked earlier...

"nearly 30 percent of U.S. doctors reported that their patients have difficulty getting a specialized test, compared with only 11 percent and 15 percent of doctors in Australia and Sweden, respectively"...and....

"in the United States, 4 percent of patients reported waiting four months or longer for nonemergency surgery, compared with only 2 percent of French patients and 0 percent of German patients".

That article is full of shit, and probably manipulating statistics.

I have lived in the US all my life, and this absolutely isn't a problem for me or anyone else I've known, especially regarding getting specialized tests.

If anything, people are getting tested too often, because that's a big moneymaker for doctors here -- often far more lucrative than the office visit itself.

But let's say those above stats are right. Are you trying to say that converting the system here to a socialized system would INCREASE access to tests? How? Wouldn't demand go way up if everything is "free"?

[Dan Druff]

Oh, and that article you posted is from a highly partisan source, to the point where it doesn't even pretend to be nonpartisan.

Are you aware how many garbage articles there are on the internet from partisan sources which manipulate or cherry-pick stats in order to justify their point of view?

Rapid access to care has never been a hallmark of socialized medicine. It defies logic that it would, because the cost barrier is completely removed.

If McDonald's handed out free food all day instead of charging for it, do you think it would be easier or harder to get a burger there without waiting?

[dwai]

gimmick is a euro trash sand n-word who has been getting destroyed in every argument he gets in here for years, he tends to type a lot of words but doesn't really get anything across. When he's proven wrong he'll just keep being contrarian until you get sick of arguing with him.

[gimmick]

Oh, and that article you posted is from a highly partisan source, to the point where it doesn't even pretend to be nonpartisan.

Are you aware how many garbage articles there are on the internet from partisan sources which manipulate or cherry-pick stats in order to justify their point of view?

Rapid access to care has never been a hallmark of socialized medicine. It defies logic that it would, because the cost barrier is completely removed.

If McDonald's handed out free food all day instead of charging for it, do you think it would be easier or harder to get a burger there without waiting?

It quotes one of many similar studies on the issue. Didn't realize someone that links videos from Project Veritas has any standards regarding journalism.

Could it possibly be that there are other barriers besides cost? That there isn't just a sign-up sheet where every citizen can as for whatever tests they feel like taking on any given week.

If you had to first see a general practitioner that assessed your need of burger, would be the start of your mildly retarded analogy, if it tried to be at all accurate.

[gimmick]

From the article i linked earlier...

"nearly 30 percent of U.S. doctors reported that their patients have difficulty getting a specialized test, compared with only 11 percent and 15 percent of doctors in Australia and Sweden, respectively"...and....

"in the United States, 4 percent of patients reported waiting four months or longer for nonemergency surgery, compared with only 2 percent of French patients and 0 percent of German patients".

That article is full of shit, and probably manipulating statistics.

I have lived in the US all my life, and this absolutely isn't a problem for me or anyone else I've known, especially regarding getting specialized tests.

If anything, people are getting tested too often, because that's a big moneymaker for doctors here -- often far more lucrative than the office visit itself.

But let's say those above stats are right. Are you trying to say that converting the system here to a socialized system would INCREASE access to tests? How? Wouldn't demand go way up if everything is "free"?

No i'm saying it's not exactly an issue.

[Dan Druff]

Oh, and that article you posted is from a highly partisan source, to the point where it doesn't even pretend to be nonpartisan.

Are you aware how many garbage articles there are on the internet from partisan sources which manipulate or cherry-pick stats in order to justify their point of view?

Rapid access to care has never been a hallmark of socialized medicine. It defies logic that it would, because the cost barrier is completely removed.

If McDonald's handed out free food all day instead of charging for it, do you think it would be easier or harder to get a burger there without waiting?

It quotes one of many similar studies on the issue. Didn't realize someone that links videos from Project Veritas has any standards regarding journalism.

Could it possibly be that there are other barriers besides cost? That there isn't just a sign-up sheet where every citizen can as for whatever tests they feel like taking on any given week.

If you had to first see a general practitioner that assessed your need of burger, would be the start of your mildly retarded analogy, if it tried to be at all accurate.

The US had that general practitioner referral BS going on in the '90s, and then wisely abandoned it (mostly), to where we can go directly to specialists now.

Why? Because it's not a socialized system with highly rationed care. The GP visit was a huge pain in the ass, even without the long wait seen in socialized systems.

Let's say I have a foot-related concern. I call an area podiatrist, get a quick appointment (usually same week), and he/she not only examines me, but also does whatever imaging or tests are necessary to diagnose the problem. I don't need GP visits or any of that nonsense. I don't have to suffer as I wait for a podiatrist to see me 4 months later. I get it done quickly.

This exact thing happened about 3 years ago. I developed a problem with my foot where it was painful to walk. It wasn't a simple thing to diagnose. A GP would have failed. It even took 2 visits to the podiatrist to fully figure it out and correct it. But I got both appointments quickly, and the problem was fixed. This wasn't due to any kind of wealth or privilege I have. The same could have been done by any American with health insurance.

I don't want to give that up. I like this. So do most Americans. And if most Americans realized the BS going on in the UK and elsewhere, they would be MUCH less supportive of a socialized system. At the moment, most Americans believe it's only a matter of cost, not a matter of timely care. They're in for a rude surprise if we go that way.

You can keep cherry-picking misleading left-wing articles which claim it's not a problem, yet we have a Canadian explaining his own personal experience, and we have the UK's NHS site admitting that waits are an issue

[gimmick]

It quotes one of many similar studies on the issue. Didn't realize someone that links videos from Project Veritas has any standards regarding journalism.

Could it possibly be that there are other barriers besides cost? That there isn't just a sign-up sheet where every citizen can as for whatever tests they feel like taking on any given week.

If you had to first see a general practitioner that assessed your need of burger, would be the start of your mildly retarded analogy, if it tried to be at all accurate.

The US had that general practitioner referral BS going on in the '90s, and then wisely abandoned it (mostly), to where we can go directly to specialists now.

Why? Because it's not a socialized system with highly rationed care. The GP visit was a huge pain in the ass, even without the long wait seen in socialized systems.

Let's say I have a foot-related concern. I call an area podiatrist, get a quick appointment (usually same week), and he/she not only examines me, but also does whatever imaging or tests are necessary to diagnose the problem. I don't need GP visits or any of that nonsense. I don't have to suffer as I wait for a podiatrist to see me 4 months later. I get it done quickly.

This exact thing happened about 3 years ago. I developed a problem with my foot where it was painful to walk. It wasn't a simple thing to diagnose. A GP would have failed. It even took 2 visits to the podiatrist to fully figure it out and correct it. But I got both appointments quickly, and the problem was fixed. This wasn't due to any kind of wealth or privilege I have. The same could have been done by any American with health insurance.

I don't want to give that up. I like this. So do most Americans. And if most Americans realized the BS going on in the UK and elsewhere, they would be MUCH less supportive of a socialized system. At the moment, most Americans believe it's only a matter of cost, not a matter of timely care. They're in for a rude surprise if we go that way.

You can keep cherry-picking misleading left-wing articles which claim it's not a problem, yet we have a Canadian explaining his own personal experience, and we have the UK's NHS site admitting that waits are an issue

So average American spends 10k a year where rest of the first world gets by with 5k. In most of those countries it costs less than 5k a year to see a private doctor, if you don't want to wait. Tadaa, problem solved.

Oh and do you still have problem understanding how something being "free" doesn't mean people will spend all their weekends and vacation time in hospitals?