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Thread: *** OFFICIAL 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Race Thread ***

  1. #1501
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post


    dismantling the cia and expecting diplomacy (without the cia's intelligence apparently) to get the resources we need to survive sounds about as noble as treating cancer with essential oils.

    you're really going to town on these strawman arguments lately. it's just bizarre that, as a diehard liberal, tulsi's anti-war stance is the thing you're fixated on and seem to hate the most. it's also weird cause bernie and tulsi seem to be besties. the dnc hates tulsi for endorsing bernie in 2016.

    please also understand that bernie is campaigning on raising your taxes and forcing medicare for all on everyone. just let the government run your healthcare.

    how does that win in a general election again? tell me how someone who already has health insurance -- like everyone you know -- says yeah, sign me up for that?
    Why did Tulsi endorse somebody as awful as Bernie? Shows poor judgement at the least

  2. #1502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    shout out to complaining about tax payer money being a precious thing when the reason it costs thousands of dollars to fix a broken arm is because we let an entire industry be created by lobbyists to make it cost as much as possible.

    bernie wants to fix the things that are keeping this place from operating like a sane democracy. its the naked face of nobility. its throwing the money lenders out of the temple caliber nobility.


    fuck outta here boomer.
    You're actually correct that a lot of the high healthcare costs in the US are because of lobbyists.

    However, socialized medicine, including Bernie's plan, doesn't fix that. It just shifts the bill to the government and leaves Medicare in charge of rates. Guess what has been notoriously susceptible to corruption via lobbying? Yep, Medicare rates.

    The US healthcare system's high cost is often erroneously blamed on "capitalism", but in reality it's not a free market system at all. Almost all doctors and healthcare providers are slaves to the negotiated rates of insurance companies, which in turn are largely based upon the government-set rates for Medicare. This leaves us with the unfair and unmotivating situation where the worst doctor in town gets paid the exact same amount of money for the exact same procedure as the best doctor in town. And that's a problem. There is little incentive to provide good care -- only to see as many patients as possible, do the most expensive stuff, and hire billing experts to creatively charge it in the most expensive way possible.

    That's not free market whatsoever.

    That's one of many things which needs to be fixed, and unfortunately even Bernie's plan doesn't address it.
    Have you seen this video, Druff?


     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    shout out to complaining about tax payer money being a precious thing when the reason it costs thousands of dollars to fix a broken arm is because we let an entire industry be created by lobbyists to make it cost as much as possible.

    bernie wants to fix the things that are keeping this place from operating like a sane democracy. its the naked face of nobility. its throwing the money lenders out of the temple caliber nobility.


    fuck outta here boomer.
    You're actually correct that a lot of the high healthcare costs in the US are because of lobbyists.

    However, socialized medicine, including Bernie's plan, doesn't fix that. It just shifts the bill to the government and leaves Medicare in charge of rates. Guess what has been notoriously susceptible to corruption via lobbying? Yep, Medicare rates.

    The US healthcare system's high cost is often erroneously blamed on "capitalism", but in reality it's not a free market system at all. Almost all doctors and healthcare providers are slaves to the negotiated rates of insurance companies, which in turn are largely based upon the government-set rates for Medicare. This leaves us with the unfair and unmotivating situation where the worst doctor in town gets paid the exact same amount of money for the exact same procedure as the best doctor in town. And that's a problem. There is little incentive to provide good care -- only to see as many patients as possible, do the most expensive stuff, and hire billing experts to creatively charge it in the most expensive way possible.

    That's not free market whatsoever.

    That's one of many things which needs to be fixed, and unfortunately even Bernie's plan doesn't address it.
    You completely ignore how the American Medical Association successfully keeps the supply of new doctors artificially low with its lobbying of Congress to limit funding for medical schools and immigration by doctors trained in other countries, as well as ignoring anti-trust regulations regarding placement of newly graduated medical students in hospital residencies.

    And that doesn’t even address how local medical boards in many metro areas effectively serve as gatekeepers for new doctors being able to enter the local market given how referrals are used to punish or reward those new doctors based on how they conduct their own billing and referral practices.

    Overall, that oligarchic control over physician services contributes substantially to doctors in the US earning on average far more than doctors in other major developed countries.

    But, yeah. Go ahead and blame the downstream participants in this thoroughly rigged healthcare system.

     
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  4. #1504
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    Quote Originally Posted by MumblesBadly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    You're actually correct that a lot of the high healthcare costs in the US are because of lobbyists.

    However, socialized medicine, including Bernie's plan, doesn't fix that. It just shifts the bill to the government and leaves Medicare in charge of rates. Guess what has been notoriously susceptible to corruption via lobbying? Yep, Medicare rates.

    The US healthcare system's high cost is often erroneously blamed on "capitalism", but in reality it's not a free market system at all. Almost all doctors and healthcare providers are slaves to the negotiated rates of insurance companies, which in turn are largely based upon the government-set rates for Medicare. This leaves us with the unfair and unmotivating situation where the worst doctor in town gets paid the exact same amount of money for the exact same procedure as the best doctor in town. And that's a problem. There is little incentive to provide good care -- only to see as many patients as possible, do the most expensive stuff, and hire billing experts to creatively charge it in the most expensive way possible.

    That's not free market whatsoever.

    That's one of many things which needs to be fixed, and unfortunately even Bernie's plan doesn't address it.
    You completely ignore how the American Medical Association successfully keeps the supply of new doctors artificially low with its lobbying of Congress to limit funding for medical schools and immigration by doctors trained in other countries, as well as ignoring anti-trust regulations regarding placement of newly graduated medical students in hospital residencies.

    And that doesn’t even address how local medical boards in many metro areas effectively serve as gatekeepers for new doctors being able to enter the local market given how referrals are used to punish or reward those new doctors based on how they conduct their own billing and referral practices.

    Overall, that oligarchic control over physician services contributes substantially to doctors in the US earning on average far more than doctors in other major developed countries.

    But, yeah. Go ahead and blame the downstream participants in this thoroughly rigged healthcare system.
    You think doctors make too much money? They go to school until they’re 30 years old and $500k in debt. They deserve everything they make.

  5. #1505
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTickle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    You speak of institutional racism. Can you name a better time for a black person to be alive in the US than the present?
    I want you to post this on twitter and see the replies you get.

    This is a ridiculous statement. Basically the same as saying "Yeah everything might not be so fair, but at least we aren't lynching you anymore!"
    It means that progress is being made, and we are going in the right direction regarding racism in this country. Ask most on the American left, and they will insist we are going the other way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPIT this View Post
    Every wedding has one or two losers who don't know the Team Pete dance by heart. A+ by everyone else

    Tweet is gone.

    Bummer. I wanted to see this.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTickle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    You're actually correct that a lot of the high healthcare costs in the US are because of lobbyists.

    However, socialized medicine, including Bernie's plan, doesn't fix that. It just shifts the bill to the government and leaves Medicare in charge of rates. Guess what has been notoriously susceptible to corruption via lobbying? Yep, Medicare rates.

    The US healthcare system's high cost is often erroneously blamed on "capitalism", but in reality it's not a free market system at all. Almost all doctors and healthcare providers are slaves to the negotiated rates of insurance companies, which in turn are largely based upon the government-set rates for Medicare. This leaves us with the unfair and unmotivating situation where the worst doctor in town gets paid the exact same amount of money for the exact same procedure as the best doctor in town. And that's a problem. There is little incentive to provide good care -- only to see as many patients as possible, do the most expensive stuff, and hire billing experts to creatively charge it in the most expensive way possible.

    That's not free market whatsoever.

    That's one of many things which needs to be fixed, and unfortunately even Bernie's plan doesn't address it.
    Have you seen this video, Druff?

    Have you seen THIS webpage, Tickle?

    https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs...es-in-england/

    The maximum waiting time for non-urgent consultant-led treatments is 18 weeks from the day your appointment is booked through the NHS e-Referral Service, or when the hospital or service receives your referral letter.
    18 weeks, y'all.

    Wanna see a specialist? If you book it today, you'll see them in April 2020.

    Tight healthcare system. I can get into a specialist this week -- sometimes even same day -- if I call right now. Same deal with tests.

    The US system needs reform, but LOL at the UK's NHS being held up as an example we should emulate.

  8. #1508
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPIT this View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post


    you're really going to town on these strawman arguments lately. it's just bizarre that, as a diehard liberal, tulsi's anti-war stance is the thing you're fixated on and seem to hate the most. it's also weird cause bernie and tulsi seem to be besties. the dnc hates tulsi for endorsing bernie in 2016.

    please also understand that bernie is campaigning on raising your taxes and forcing medicare for all on everyone. just let the government run your healthcare.

    how does that win in a general election again? tell me how someone who already has health insurance -- like everyone you know -- says yeah, sign me up for that?
    Why did Tulsi endorse somebody as awful as Bernie? Shows poor judgement at the least
    Tulsi is running to be Bernie's VP.

    Her (successful) attack on Kamala Harris was a backdoor favor to Bernie, and indeed knocked out one of his major opponents.

    She would actually be a great VP pick for him, and there's a good chance that's where he'll go, but the problem is that I just don't see him getting the nomination.

  9. #1509
    Gold MrTickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrTickle View Post

    Have you seen this video, Druff?

    Have you seen THIS webpage, Tickle?

    https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs...es-in-england/

    The maximum waiting time for non-urgent consultant-led treatments is 18 weeks from the day your appointment is booked through the NHS e-Referral Service, or when the hospital or service receives your referral letter.
    18 weeks, y'all.

    Wanna see a specialist? If you book it today, you'll see them in April 2020.

    Tight healthcare system. I can get into a specialist this week -- sometimes even same day -- if I call right now. Same deal with tests.

    The US system needs reform, but LOL at the UK's NHS being held up as an example we should emulate.
    Yes the NHS has been systematically destroyed by the Tory government we have had for the last 10 years now. Our NHS 15 years ago was something the emulate but now it’s been stripped down and sold off. It’s a disgrace.

  10. #1510
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MumblesBadly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    You're actually correct that a lot of the high healthcare costs in the US are because of lobbyists.

    However, socialized medicine, including Bernie's plan, doesn't fix that. It just shifts the bill to the government and leaves Medicare in charge of rates. Guess what has been notoriously susceptible to corruption via lobbying? Yep, Medicare rates.

    The US healthcare system's high cost is often erroneously blamed on "capitalism", but in reality it's not a free market system at all. Almost all doctors and healthcare providers are slaves to the negotiated rates of insurance companies, which in turn are largely based upon the government-set rates for Medicare. This leaves us with the unfair and unmotivating situation where the worst doctor in town gets paid the exact same amount of money for the exact same procedure as the best doctor in town. And that's a problem. There is little incentive to provide good care -- only to see as many patients as possible, do the most expensive stuff, and hire billing experts to creatively charge it in the most expensive way possible.

    That's not free market whatsoever.

    That's one of many things which needs to be fixed, and unfortunately even Bernie's plan doesn't address it.
    You completely ignore how the American Medical Association successfully keeps the supply of new doctors artificially low with its lobbying of Congress to limit funding for medical schools and immigration by doctors trained in other countries, as well as ignoring anti-trust regulations regarding placement of newly graduated medical students in hospital residencies.

    And that doesn’t even address how local medical boards in many metro areas effectively serve as gatekeepers for new doctors being able to enter the local market given how referrals are used to punish or reward those new doctors based on how they conduct their own billing and referral practices.

    Overall, that oligarchic control over physician services contributes substantially to doctors in the US earning on average far more than doctors in other major developed countries.

    But, yeah. Go ahead and blame the downstream participants in this thoroughly rigged healthcare system.
    Actually, all of these points are legitimate, and reform is definitely needed regarding the shortage of doctors in the US. As I've said many times, many areas of our existing healthcare system needs reform, and this is one of them.

    However, this is NOT the reason doctors in the US earn more than their other first-world counterparts. Also, as nightmarefish pointed out, many doctors start out heavily in debt, and can't get their careers started until they're around 30 years old. They also spend a tremendous amount of time and effort in residency for very little pay -- something also overlooked and which is both unfair to young doctors AND dangerous for patients.

    The reason the US doctors earn more is because of the antiquated, opaque, and piecemeal billing system which allows the same test/exam/procedure to be billed several different ways, and for the patient to have no visibility into what services he's buying (or their cost) until it's too late.

    Lobbying allows artificially high Medicare rates to be set for certain tests and procedures, which then affects private insurance rates, which doctors then pick up on and look to steer you toward those tests and procedures. Then the loophole is eventually closed, and another one pops up, and it's an endless game of whack-a-mole.

    I'm not blaming the people "downstream". I'm blaming lobbyists, politiicans, and healthcare providers.

    Want a good example of this? The nuclear stress test is a somewhat harmful and often-ordered test ordered by cardiologists, simply because it's far more lucrative than its non-radioactive counterpart. This vast difference in compensation was a result of corrupt lobbying. In turn, many unethical cardiologists will tell patients they need a nuclear stress test, even when they don't really need it at all.

    My mom was even an attempted victim of this scam. Her cardiologist asked her to take one of these, and she was suspicious. She then spoke up and said, "My son is a top cardiologist at Stanford. If you don't mind, I'm going to ask him for his opinion, as well." The doctor seemed nervous, and then later on in the day, he personally called her and said that he had been thinking about it, and decided she only needed the non-nuclear version. He then offered to schedule the test "any time, even today, just tell me when", and went into full asskiss mode. Basically the guy was in a panic because he knew my brother would tell her that she was being scammed, and he didn't want his reputation ruined. Indeed, when she told my brother about it, he said that a nuclear stress test was ridiculous given her circumstances.

    That's Medicare lobbying at work. Lobbyists get the nuclear stress test reimbursement rate set artificially high, the insurance companies are then pressured to follow suit, and then doctors go out of their way to make sure their patients get that test, even if unnecessary.

    This isn't capitalism. It's corruption. And it will get worse under Medicare For All.

  11. #1511
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    Corruption is baked in with capitalism

  12. #1512
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post


    dismantling the cia and expecting diplomacy (without the cia's intelligence apparently) to get the resources we need to survive sounds about as noble as treating cancer with essential oils.

    you're really going to town on these strawman arguments lately. it's just bizarre that, as a diehard liberal, tulsi's anti-war stance is the thing you're fixated on and seem to hate the most. it's also weird cause bernie and tulsi seem to be besties. the dnc hates tulsi for endorsing bernie in 2016.

    please also understand that bernie is campaigning on raising your taxes and forcing medicare for all on everyone. just let the government run your healthcare.

    how does that win in a general election again? tell me how someone who already has health insurance -- like everyone you know -- says yeah, sign me up for that?


    its not an anti-war stance, its an anti-intelligence stance. shes donald trump with tits and youre balls deep in her because you finally found a republican you dont have to be embarrassed to support.

    blaming the cia for taking part in the cold war, neoconservative adventurism, and otherwise implementing policies dictated by sitting presidents exploitive, alarming, and nefarious.

    fuck off my block with your cult of tulsi feelings.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

  13. #1513
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    gg Kamala

  14. #1514
    100% Organic MumblesBadly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPIT this View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post


    you're really going to town on these strawman arguments lately. it's just bizarre that, as a diehard liberal, tulsi's anti-war stance is the thing you're fixated on and seem to hate the most. it's also weird cause bernie and tulsi seem to be besties. the dnc hates tulsi for endorsing bernie in 2016.

    please also understand that bernie is campaigning on raising your taxes and forcing medicare for all on everyone. just let the government run your healthcare.

    how does that win in a general election again? tell me how someone who already has health insurance -- like everyone you know -- says yeah, sign me up for that?
    Why did Tulsi endorse somebody as awful as Bernie? Shows poor judgement at the least
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  15. #1515
    100% Organic MumblesBadly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MumblesBadly View Post

    You completely ignore how the American Medical Association successfully keeps the supply of new doctors artificially low with its lobbying of Congress to limit funding for medical schools and immigration by doctors trained in other countries, as well as ignoring anti-trust regulations regarding placement of newly graduated medical students in hospital residencies.

    And that doesn’t even address how local medical boards in many metro areas effectively serve as gatekeepers for new doctors being able to enter the local market given how referrals are used to punish or reward those new doctors based on how they conduct their own billing and referral practices.

    Overall, that oligarchic control over physician services contributes substantially to doctors in the US earning on average far more than doctors in other major developed countries.

    But, yeah. Go ahead and blame the downstream participants in this thoroughly rigged healthcare system.
    Actually, all of these points are legitimate, and reform is definitely needed regarding the shortage of doctors in the US. As I've said many times, many areas of our existing healthcare system needs reform, and this is one of them.

    However, this is NOT the reason doctors in the US earn more than their other first-world counterparts. Also, as nightmarefish pointed out, many doctors start out heavily in debt, and can't get their careers started until they're around 30 years old. They also spend a tremendous amount of time and effort in residency for very little pay -- something also overlooked and which is both unfair to young doctors AND dangerous for patients.

    The reason the US doctors earn more is because of the antiquated, opaque, and piecemeal billing system which allows the same test/exam/procedure to be billed several different ways, and for the patient to have no visibility into what services he's buying (or their cost) until it's too late.

    Lobbying allows artificially high Medicare rates to be set for certain tests and procedures, which then affects private insurance rates, which doctors then pick up on and look to steer you toward those tests and procedures. Then the loophole is eventually closed, and another one pops up, and it's an endless game of whack-a-mole.

    I'm not blaming the people "downstream". I'm blaming lobbyists, politiicans, and healthcare providers.

    Want a good example of this? The nuclear stress test is a somewhat harmful and often-ordered test ordered by cardiologists, simply because it's far more lucrative than its non-radioactive counterpart. This vast difference in compensation was a result of corrupt lobbying. In turn, many unethical cardiologists will tell patients they need a nuclear stress test, even when they don't really need it at all.

    My mom was even an attempted victim of this scam. Her cardiologist asked her to take one of these, and she was suspicious. She then spoke up and said, "My son is a top cardiologist at Stanford. If you don't mind, I'm going to ask him for his opinion, as well." The doctor seemed nervous, and then later on in the day, he personally called her and said that he had been thinking about it, and decided she only needed the non-nuclear version. He then offered to schedule the test "any time, even today, just tell me when", and went into full asskiss mode. Basically the guy was in a panic because he knew my brother would tell her that she was being scammed, and he didn't want his reputation ruined. Indeed, when she told my brother about it, he said that a nuclear stress test was ridiculous given her circumstances.

    That's Medicare lobbying at work. Lobbyists get the nuclear stress test reimbursement rate set artificially high, the insurance companies are then pressured to follow suit, and then doctors go out of their way to make sure their patients get that test, even if unnecessary.

    This isn't capitalism. It's corruption. And it will get worse under Medicare For All.
    Whoa!!! In both posts, you are blaming the healthcare industry’s lobbying of Medicare for essentially forcing doctors to abuse the billing system to artificially inflate their practice and income with unnecessary/expensive testing that private insurance companies are then forced to cover and pass the cost on to policyholders, and then turn around and force doctors to face supposedly draconian reimbursement rates in order to recover the cost of their med school debt.

    Yet, how do you think that the health care industry is able to lobby Medicare to set high rates for certain medical testing??? They primarily use market prices of the few doctors who perform those procedures, which is artificially inflated by the medical community controlling the supply of doctors who are trained to perform/supervise those procedures.

    And who controls how much Congress subsidizes med schools for prospective new doctors? The AMA with the same lobbying power it brings to bear on Medicare.

    Really, Druff. You seem to be very selective in who you identify as the bad actors in this system. Somehow it’s the amorphous “Medicare”, when the primary agents of the questionable job Medicare does are the professionals who organize and lobby to get extremely favorable treatment by the government.

     
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  16. #1516
    Quote Originally Posted by duped_samaritan View Post
    gg Kamala
    I blame muh Russia.

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by MrTickle View Post
    Corruption is baked in with capitalism
    Bullshit.

    Capitalism is what happens when you leave people alone.

    Corruption is baked into political power.

  18. #1518
    i can now get rich on Hillary, Booker or Tulsi to win the Dem nom.

    and im loving Bernie +500 on sportsbook.ag to win Iowa

  19. #1519
    Quote Originally Posted by duped_samaritan View Post
    gg Kamala
    Another Tulsi KO!

    The next debate likely to be 7 or 8 handed. The winnowing is in full force

  20. #1520
    Gold MrTickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v12cl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrTickle View Post
    Corruption is baked in with capitalism
    Bullshit.

    Capitalism is what happens when you leave people alone.

    Corruption is baked into political power.
    If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you

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