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Thread: Attention lawyers: Is this grounds for a class action suit?

  1. #41
    Silver Jayjami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    The scenario:

    You download a free game app which offers premium "in app purchases" for real money.

    You purchase 5000 "gold" for real money to be used in the game.

    The game is designed very poorly, and causes accidental and spontaneous "purchases" with your gold to be made, thus wasting it.

    You ask support for the gold back. They refuse, claiming "all purchases with gold are final". When you show the details which would make it obvious the purchase with gold was accidental (i.e. it would have no benefit to you in the game), they still refuse.

    Upon going on a Facebook group for players of this popular game, you uncover that likely thousands of people have been victimized in this exact same way, due to both the poor app design and the no-refund-of-gold policy. Furthermore, you begin to suspect that this is intentional.

    I am of the belief that the company acted illegally for refusing to refund the obvious accidental/unintended purchases with the gold, as the gold cost real money to get, and the app did not provide reasonable protections against accidental purchases (nor is a reasonable refund policy in place for when this occurs).

    Is this class action material?
    LOL, caveat emptor bitch.

  2. #42
    Sounds like Global poker if not what was the site so no one from this community gets taken. Why not just charge back? This reminds me of absolute poker back in the day. The charge would be listed as hardware materials, pokerstars did the same type of bookeeping.
    Last edited by FRANKRIZZO; 12-07-2018 at 01:37 PM.

  3. #43
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    The scenario:

    You download a free game app which offers premium "in app purchases" for real money.

    You purchase 5000 "gold" for real money to be used in the game.

    The game is designed very poorly, and causes accidental and spontaneous "purchases" with your gold to be made, thus wasting it.

    You ask support for the gold back. They refuse, claiming "all purchases with gold are final". When you show the details which would make it obvious the purchase with gold was accidental (i.e. it would have no benefit to you in the game), they still refuse.

    Upon going on a Facebook group for players of this popular game, you uncover that likely thousands of people have been victimized in this exact same way, due to both the poor app design and the no-refund-of-gold policy. Furthermore, you begin to suspect that this is intentional.

    I am of the belief that the company acted illegally for refusing to refund the obvious accidental/unintended purchases with the gold, as the gold cost real money to get, and the app did not provide reasonable protections against accidental purchases (nor is a reasonable refund policy in place for when this occurs).

    Is this class action material?
    LOL, caveat emptor bitch.
    I was hoping for something more enlightening than that from you.

    Or is this why you stopped practicing?

  4. #44
    Silver Jayjami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjami View Post
    LOL, caveat emptor bitch.
    I was hoping for something more enlightening than that from you.

    Or is this why you stopped practicing?
    Typical client, can’t handle the truth. Exactly what are your economic damages? I understand you being butthurt because product didn’t perform up to your expectations, but that is not compensable under contract principles. And fraud? LOL, those Sea Monkeys I bought as a kid were a ripoff, too. As I said, caveat emptor bitch.

  5. #45
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    I was hoping for something more enlightening than that from you.

    Or is this why you stopped practicing?
    Typical client, can’t handle the truth. Exactly what are your economic damages? I understand you being butthurt because product didn’t perform up to your expectations, but that is not compensable under contract principles. And fraud? LOL, those Sea Monkeys I bought as a kid were a ripoff, too. As I said, caveat emptor bitch.
    My economic damages are low. But that's why I was asking about class action, and not about suing the company for a very small amount of money.

    This wasn't about failure to perform to expectation. It's about failure to deliver services paid for.

    I bought the gold in order to purchase premium services on their app. That is the gold's only function, and it is clear that the user is purchasing the gold as an intermediate currency for use of purchasing premium services.

    I did not get the premium services because the app is full of bugs and design flaws, which took my gold and "purchased" services I did not want. My attempts to have the company reverse this were met with failure.

    As I said, disappointing response.

    There's no question I was ripped off here. I don't need a lawyer to tell me that.

    The question is whether existing law would allow me to get a remedy, and if existing law would support a class action if one were to be attempted.

  6. #46
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    For those who think the company can do what it wants with its internal gold, provided that they state so in the TOS, consider these scenarios:

    1) Most things in the game cost 100-3000 gold. You purchase 10,000 gold for $100. The next day, the company raises the price of items to where everything costs between 20,000 and 1,000,000 gold. They will not refund your money or give you more gold to compensate.

    2) You purchase 10,000 gold for $100. While chatting during the game, you say the word "fuck". The company says that you committed a TOS violation by cursing in the chat, and takes your gold as punishment.

    Even if the TOS permitted these, both actions would clearly be (civilly) illegal.

    Neither of these two things actually happened, but I was citing some possible examples to show that a company can't just hide behind, "It's our internal gold, not real money" or TOS rules in order to cheat people.

    Bottom line is that if you purchase a service and it's not delivered, you were cheated. That is 100% true. I am surprised that some people here are taking a "shit happens, read the TOS next time" attitude. That's blaming the victim and not the perpetrator, and that's bullshit.

    Would this probably be too much trouble to pursue legally? Yes, and if that's your argument, I can respect that.

    Is the law immature regarding in-app purchases to where I might lose if I pursed them legally? Yes, and if that's your argument, I can respect that.

    Might this fail as a class action, due to various legal factors? Yes, and if that's your argument, I can respect that.

    Is this one of those cases where I got ripped off, but should just let it go because the money is small? Perhaps, and if that's your argument, I can respect that.

    But seriously... LOL at anyone who thinks that this company isn't actually ripping people off here.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    Yes. Yes it is.

    The caveat is you're going to need to find demonstrative evidence that the purchases were made in a way similar to what you described (essentially inadvertent).

    I and many others could help you do this but, and this is not in the slightest bit snarky, the cost for anyone to set up a proxy and MITM the traffic then distilling it into a form digestible to a legal authority would be prohibitive.

    Which is exactly what these games count on.
    Exactly. It's probably "beatable" in court, however, no sane person is going to try to start a class action going after the company ***for the monetary compensation*** because it will be too small an amount for ***themselves*** -- they will get literaly a coupon for $3.75 worth of the company's games or some other horse shit after the lawyers "win". Druff seems well aware of this and instead wants to know if it is still possible to do a class action because he has an alternative motive --- to hurt the fraud artists. I get it. This is in a way identical to one the key reasons you started this site: you didn't necessarily care about making money but "love the game of poker. And because I hate what the scumbags and criminals are doing to it."

    Attorneys/Law firms don't work/think like that. They have a limit to how many billable hours they can "do". They look for high return/low work hours. This case seems to be the opposite. I may be wrong.

    In the end, Druff, you are being atruistic here, and that's fine, but lawyers won't go for it (I doubt it highly anyways). In the end the P.O.S. company wins. Some smart asshole non-altruist figured out a loophole. It's one of the greatest scourges of capitalism, that the non-altruist sometimes have the biggest score.

  8. #48
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS_ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by handicapme View Post
    Not a lawyer but making the argument of "the TOS is not legally enforceable because then I could put we can shot you in the head and you can't do anything, so ha!" Is pretty shortsided. It defines your remedies, their responsibilities to you and obviously at the end of the day everyone is going to sue everyone, BUT if it is not a gross clause you'll be fighting an uphill fucking battle that you'll most likely not win.

    In this example I would guess they are very clear on their refund policy, state that they are not obligated or responsible for a mistake you make and something tells me you are also agreeing to arbitration (ie giving up your rights for a trail jury). Now obviously you can sue and scream about how they "tricked" you, but unless it is beyond a gross misrepresentation your day in court will be 5 hours waiting and 3min with the judge saying NOPE. Then when you go to the arbitrator he's going to ask if your "class" read the TOS and then before your broke lawyer can argue how it's a scam they'll rule in the company's favor.

    I'll stick to finance but you should come back to real life and stop buying "gold". Also, I know something like this triggers you, but I say this as a friend... if playing the game helped you get better and then you lost some money on it, is it really worth getting worked up about being scammed? How about maybe thinking of it as paying for a prescription, move on and not put yourself in a situation that will stress you out more and impact your health?
    A LEGAL TOS is legally enforceable. An illegal clause in a TOS is not legally enforceable. It doesn't matter if it's something crazy like shooting the person or something minor. Legal is legal, illegal is illegal. Whether what happened is legal or illegal is a different story.

    I don't know the details of how this "mistake" happens, but given there are supposedly a bunch of other people this has happened to, it seems like the fault is on the company, meaning people weren't making a mistake, but the software was scamming people.



    In fact, it reminds me a bit of the sensor minibar situation at hotels in the '90s and early 2000s.

    As I'm sure many of you recall, minibars with automatic sensors were installed starting about 20-25 years ago in many hotels. If you moved anything around in the minibar, the sensor would determine you "took" the item, and charge your room for it.

    This led to a lot of erroneous charges, even if you took care not to touch any items in the minibar. For example, sometimes these sensors were just hypersensitive and would report an item taken, even if nothing was touched. Other times, vibration in the building or simply accidentally bumping the minibar would cause the sensors to report items were consumed.

    If you caught it on your bill, you could easily have it removed, but many people (especially businessmen) didn't, thus resulting in a lot of unjustly earned profits for the hotel. This is what's known as a "negative check-off scam".

    But one hotel I stayed at in the 2000s -- Harrah's Reno -- attempted to make you sign a paper that you agreed to pay for all charges shown by the minibar! I refused to sign this paper, resulting in a big argument at check-in, until they finally backed down when I suggested they simply lock my minibar instead.

    But what if I had signed it? And what if it had erroneously indicated that I drank $200 worth of stuff, when in reality I hadn't touched anything (and could prove it)? Could they legally charge me the $200 because I had signed a paper giving them the right to do so?

    The answer is no, because the reasonable expectation of the customer was that the minibar sensors were working properly, and I was not signing an agreement to pay for erroneous reports.

    This situation is somewhat similar, as a reasonable person purchasing gold would expect he could spend it on items he wanted, and that the app would work properly and have proper safeguards against unintended purchases.

  9. #49
    I bought strawberries and they went bad in a day.

    I expected them to last at least a few days.


    I threw them out and bought grapes. I did not start a class action lawsuit.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by simpdog View Post
    I bought strawberries and they went bad in a day.

    I expected them to last at least a few days.


    I threw them out and bought grapes. I did not start a class action lawsuit.
    caveat emptor bitch
    Hi Lew!!!

  11. #51
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Let's separate the legal and ethical aspects of this.

    Simple question:

    Is there anyone who believes that the company didn't actually cheat me?

    Forget whether or not it was intentional, or whether it's worth pursuing.

    The question is: Was I ripped off (albeit for a small amount of money), given that they won't refund gold I purchased which their app wasted, or was this somehow my fault?

    Serious answers only. Really looking to try and understand what some of the dissenters are trying to say here.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Let's separate the legal and ethical aspects of this.

    Simple question:

    Is there anyone who believes that the company didn't actually cheat me?

    Forget whether or not it was intentional, or whether it's worth pursuing.

    The question is: Was I ripped off (albeit for a small amount of money), given that they won't refund gold I purchased which their app wasted, or was this somehow my fault?

    Serious answers only. Really looking to try and understand what some of the dissenters are trying to say here.
    If you’re going to ask for this we need more proof.

    Screenshots, video etc.

    Without a full picture obviously you were defrauded however the way you described it could easily have been misleading us.

  13. #53
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpdog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Let's separate the legal and ethical aspects of this.

    Simple question:

    Is there anyone who believes that the company didn't actually cheat me?

    Forget whether or not it was intentional, or whether it's worth pursuing.

    The question is: Was I ripped off (albeit for a small amount of money), given that they won't refund gold I purchased which their app wasted, or was this somehow my fault?

    Serious answers only. Really looking to try and understand what some of the dissenters are trying to say here.
    If you’re going to ask for this we need more proof.

    Screenshots, video etc.

    Without a full picture obviously you were defrauded however the way you described it could easily have been misleading us.
    I can't take video of something that happened in the past, nor am I going to waste further money to "prove" this.

    However, since nobody here is making a binding decision affecting anyone else, just assume for the sake of argument that, yes, it is very easy for accidental purchases with gold to happen on the app, and that the company does not refund purchases with gold no matter what.

    Do you think I'm making this up? If I really just bought something with the gold and wasn't satisfied, I'd either do nothing or charge it back via App Store. I would not create a thread out here asking for lawyers to comment on a class action suit.

    In the 14 years I've been on these forums, have I ever been seen grossly misrepresenting some kind of claim of someone or some company acting shady?

    Anyway, again, I'm simply asking if people feel this company ripped me off, if everything I wrote in the OP is true.

  14. #54
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    all hail Hydra



    Originally Posted by DanDruff:Since I'm a 6'2" Republican with an average-sized nose and a last name which doesn't end with "stein", "man", or "berg", I can hide among the goyim and remain undetected unless I open my mouth about money matters.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by simpdog View Post

    If you’re going to ask for this we need more proof.

    Screenshots, video etc.

    Without a full picture obviously you were defrauded however the way you described it could easily have been misleading us.
    In the 14 years I've been on these forums, have I ever been seen grossly misrepresenting some kind of claim of someone or some company acting shady?
    .
    I assume you mean other than the time you allowed a guy to fake cancer and death?

     
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    It's hilarious that we as a society think everyone can be a dr, a lawyer, an engineer. Some people are just fucking stupid. Why can't we just accept that?

  16. #56
    Speedster Out of Clemson adamantium's Avatar
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    Why dont you give us all the details and not this theoretical BS?
    With what you have given us thus far its hard not to troll the shit out of you.
    Im starting to think this whole thing is just an poor attempt to generate a little bit of activity around here.

    Also how are we doing with the blue fire webpro world star?
    jet flyin son of a gun

  17. #57
    Silver Jayjami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjami View Post
    Typical client, can’t handle the truth. Exactly what are your economic damages? I understand you being butthurt because product didn’t perform up to your expectations, but that is not compensable under contract principles. And fraud? LOL, those Sea Monkeys I bought as a kid were a ripoff, too. As I said, caveat emptor bitch.
    My economic damages are low. But that's why I was asking about class action, and not about suing the company for a very small amount of money.

    This wasn't about failure to perform to expectation. It's about failure to deliver services paid for.

    I bought the gold in order to purchase premium services on their app. That is the gold's only function, and it is clear that the user is purchasing the gold as an intermediate currency for use of purchasing premium services.

    I did not get the premium services because the app is full of bugs and design flaws, which took my gold and "purchased" services I did not want. My attempts to have the company reverse this were met with failure.

    As I said, disappointing response.

    There's no question I was ripped off here. I don't need a lawyer to tell me that.

    The question is whether existing law would allow me to get a remedy, and if existing law would support a class action if one were to be attempted.
    Of course my response was “disappointing”, because I didn’t tell you how right you are and that you are some type of “victim” that deserves sympathy. You would make a perfect representative client for a class action suit, a rich whining California Jew who makes his living playing poker. I’m sure the jury would be very sympathetic to you being “ripped off.”

    LOL, if it wasn’t your butt that was sore, you’d be bitching about scummy lawyers who file frivolous class action lawsuits, bankrupting corporate America, making millions, while their clients get 50 cent recoveries. I bet you’ve had difficulties with lawyers you’ve retained in the past. You exhibit all the signs of a “nightmare client”.
    Last edited by Jayjami; 12-08-2018 at 07:10 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjami View Post
    LOL, if it wasn’t your butt that was sore, you’d be bitching about scummy lawyers who file frivolous class action lawsuits, bankrupting corporate America, making millions, while their clients get 50 cent recoveries. I bet you’ve had difficulties with lawyers you’ve retained in the past. You exhibit all the signs of a “nightmare client”.


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  19. #59
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayjami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    My economic damages are low. But that's why I was asking about class action, and not about suing the company for a very small amount of money.

    This wasn't about failure to perform to expectation. It's about failure to deliver services paid for.

    I bought the gold in order to purchase premium services on their app. That is the gold's only function, and it is clear that the user is purchasing the gold as an intermediate currency for use of purchasing premium services.

    I did not get the premium services because the app is full of bugs and design flaws, which took my gold and "purchased" services I did not want. My attempts to have the company reverse this were met with failure.

    As I said, disappointing response.

    There's no question I was ripped off here. I don't need a lawyer to tell me that.

    The question is whether existing law would allow me to get a remedy, and if existing law would support a class action if one were to be attempted.
    Of course my response was “disappointing”, because I didn’t tell you how right you are and that you are some type of “victim” that deserves sympathy. You would make a perfect representative client for a class action suit, a rich whining California Jew who makes his living playing poker. I’m sure the jury would be very sympathetic to you being “ripped off.”

    LOL, if it wasn’t your butt that was sore, you’d be bitching about scummy lawyers who file frivolous class action lawsuits, bankrupting corporate America, making millions, while their clients get 50 cent recoveries. I bet you’ve had difficulties with lawyers you’ve retained in the past. You exhibit all the signs of a “nightmare client”.
    Your response was disappointing because I was hoping that you, as a former lawyer, would chime in from a legal standpoint, instead of retarded "buyer beware" 1-liners.

    That type of thing is usually dumb shit that idiots say when they want to blame a victim for getting ripped off.

    If you don't know the answer to my question, just admit it.

    I never said that I deserve sympathy. I lost a very small amount of money. I was asking if this little scheme would qualify for a class action because it involves a lot of people being ripped off for a small amount of money -- pretty much exactly the situation class actions were made for.

    Instead of giving me an intelligent answer, you dropped a dumb 1-liner and then doubled down by attacking me for asking the question in the first place.

    I run into a shady-as-fuck app company screwing large numbers of people, share my experience out here, and then assholes like you insult me. Unbelievable.

    You call me a nightmare client, but it sounds more like you were a nightmare lawyer.

    But I'm sure that had nothing to do with the reason you quit and now sell pot for a living.

  20. #60
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamantium View Post
    Why dont you give us all the details and not this theoretical BS?
    With what you have given us thus far its hard not to troll the shit out of you.
    Im starting to think this whole thing is just an poor attempt to generate a little bit of activity around here.

    Also how are we doing with the blue fire webpro world star?
    There's no theoretical BS. I gave all the information needed. I said that a game has a crappy interface which both glitches and has a design flaw where it's incredibly easy to make accidental purchases, and then the company refuses to make it right when you bring it to their attention. I went on some internet discussion boards for that game and saw a ton of people bitching about that exact same thing, so I know it's not just me. What more can I say?

    The Bluefire Web Pro has mostly gone quiet. He fired off one more drunk e-mail to me, but that's pretty much it.

    Those eagerly waiting for Failsite 7.0 will be disappointed that he's likely been spending his time playing $3.30 Pokerstars tournaments and slathering his dick with peanut butter for his latest canine friend.

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