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Thread: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    Not at all. By your logic every state that loses the bid loses whatever they offered in relation what they would have gained. NY is just one of those. You can explain why you think NY is special among losers.
    This particular post is a perfect example of what debating you is like. We had a dozen posts debating whether new york "lost" 60,000 jobs and $24 billion in tax revenue or whether it just didn't gain it.

    That literally happened. All substantive discussion ended. We debated the meaning of the word "lost."

    Fuck my life.

    But bcr sees no problem with your debate style so maybe it was just me. You'd make a fine attorney.

    I think his debate style is academic on this issue. You were both pretty sure you’re right but you’re arguing different things. You’re arguing what’s best for NY while he’s arguing what’s best for the US and what might also not be a great deal for NY. He’s arguing there is x amount of jobs. It’s all a losing game subsidizing jobs and one state loses what another gains. I don’t agree or disagree on the argument. I’m not qualified to assess the value as a nation of having these mega corporations be American corporations and what value that provides us on a global scale. Like Amazon doesn’t fit the bill but if we were subsidizing some technology with crossover military applications, how do you quantify that?

    I agree with him in a theoretical sense on a lot of it, but I’m no expert at this, but I do know playing the smartest game as he describes it requires some country that is free of corruption and lobbying and protectionist in a way we never will be free of those things. By the rules of the game we play here in America, NY lost a whole lot of jobs and taxes and I don’t think 3.4 billion in incentives to any other business will provide the windfall Amazon would. I don’t know that, but I’d be seriously surprised if the bottom line for some coalition of smaller business would generate the salaries and taxes of an Amazon. There may be other problems that come along with Amazon that make it a bad deal.



    When I call her stupid I’m talking about her politics. You can be right on an issue in politics and lose and wrong on everything and win. I don’t think celebrating the loss of that many jobs is ever smart even if you don’t concede the jobs are lost. Most will view them as lost jobs. I think we have a president that shows that reality is irrelevant. I believe strongly she’s a net negative politically. She cultivates progressives in a demographic that’s already blue and mostly in urban areas. They are also traditionally the most unreliable voters and take their ball and not even play voters in our electorate if they don’t get their way, I don’t trust them to show up at the polls at all. Like whomever she likely backs for President is probably someone who won’t emerge from the primaries and her supporters will largely sit it out. The animus she generates on the other side is stronger and she plays worst in areas that decided that last election.

    Like positive polling where they ask specifically if you approve of taxing the first dollar after $10 million at 70% doesn’t convince me of anything. It won’t reach the masses in that way. She’ll just be the chick they heard talking about 70% taxes and a general caricature of a crazy brown chick talking socialism.
    Last edited by BCR; 02-17-2019 at 05:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post

    This particular post is a perfect example of what debating you is like. We had a dozen posts debating whether new york "lost" 60,000 jobs and $24 billion in tax revenue or whether it just didn't gain it.

    That literally happened. All substantive discussion ended. We debated the meaning of the word "lost."

    Fuck my life.

    But bcr sees no problem with your debate style so maybe it was just me. You'd make a fine attorney.

    I think his debate style is academic on this issue. You were both pretty sure you’re right but you’re arguing different things. You’re arguing what’s best for NY while he’s arguing what’s best for the US and what might also not be a great deal for NY. He’s arguing there is x amount of jobs. It’s all a losing game subsidizing jobs and one state loses what another gains. I don’t agree or disagree on the argument. I’m not qualified to assess the value as a nation of having these mega corporations be American corporations and what value that provides us on a global scale. Like Amazon doesn’t fit the bill but if we were subsidizing some technology with crossover military applications, how do you quantify that?

    I agree with him in a theoretical sense on a lot of it, but I’m no expert at this, but I do know playing the smartest game as he describes it requires some country that is free of corruption and lobbying and protectionist in a way we never will be free of those things. By the rules of the game we play here in America, NY lost a whole lot of jobs and taxes and I don’t think 3.4 billion in incentives to any other business will provide the windfall Amazon would. I don’t know that, but I’d be seriously surprised if the bottom line for some coalition of smaller business would generate the salaries and taxes of an Amazon. There may be other problems that come along with Amazon that make it a bad deal.



    When I call her stupid I’m talking about her politics. You can be right on an issue in politics and lose and wrong on everything and win. I don’t think celebrating the loss of that many jobs is ever smart even if you don’t concede the jobs are lost. Most will view them as lost jobs. I think we have a president that shows that reality is irrelevant. I believe strongly she’s a net negative politically. She cultivates progressives in a demographic that’s already blue and mostly in urban areas. They are also traditionally the most unreliable voters and take their ball and not even play voters in our electorate if they don’t get their way, I don’t trust them to show up at the polls at all. Like whomever she likely backs for President is probably someone who won’t emerge from the primaries and her supporters will largely sit it out. The animus she generates on the other side is stronger and she plays worst in areas that decided that last election.

    Like positive polling where they ask specifically if you approve of taxing the first dollar after $10 million at 70% doesn’t convince me of anything. It won’t reach the masses in that way. She’ll just be the chick they heard talking about 70% taxes and a general caricature of a crazy brown chick talking socialism.
    i completely agree with this, which is why when i actually reviewed the posts, i remain of the opinion that we are more in agreement than not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post

    This particular post is a perfect example of what debating you is like. We had a dozen posts debating whether new york "lost" 60,000 jobs and $24 billion in tax revenue or whether it just didn't gain it.

    That literally happened. All substantive discussion ended. We debated the meaning of the word "lost."

    Fuck my life.

    But bcr sees no problem with your debate style so maybe it was just me. You'd make a fine attorney.

    I think his debate style is academic on this issue. You were both pretty sure you’re right but you’re arguing different things. You’re arguing what’s best for NY while he’s arguing what’s best for the US and what might also not be a great deal for NY. He’s arguing there is x amount of jobs. It’s all a losing game subsidizing jobs and one state loses what another gains. I don’t agree or disagree on the argument. I’m not qualified to assess the value as a nation of having these mega corporations be American corporations and what value that provides us on a global scale. Like Amazon doesn’t fit the bill but if we were subsidizing some technology with crossover military applications, how do you quantify that?

    I agree with him in a theoretical sense on a lot of it, but I’m no expert at this, but I do know playing the smartest game as he describes it requires some country that is free of corruption and lobbying and protectionist in a way we never will be free of those things. [B]By the rules of the game we play here in America, NY lost a whole lot of jobs and taxes and I don’t think 3.4 billion in incentives to any other business will provide the windfall Amazon would. I don’t know that, but I’d be seriously surprised if the bottom line for some coalition of smaller business would generate the salaries and taxes of an Amazon.
    exactly. if new york could just make the same (or better) offers to other companies, they already would have. i'm highly suspect that new york can simply replace those jobs and revenue with something else.

    fwiw, i've read like 1000 articles on this from all viewpoints but i've never seen anyone make that sort of argument.

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    There can be beneficial tax incentives that create jobs that wouldn't otherwise exist. The jobs Amazon is offering aren't those. Regardless of incentives there is going to be HQ2 and x amount of jobs.

    Here i'm likely to believe that the same people are mostly hired for the 150k positions as long as it's almost anywhere in the east coast. Or at least anywhere Amazon would be interested. Sonatine could likely give a better guess about it. The talent they are looking isn't that abundant and the individuals they are looking are more or less set for life. Not necessarily with Amazon obv. But they don't exactly need help finding a job.

    I do think AOC route has better odds for success than any other choice Democrats have. Second run of old moderate white lady seems iffy at best. Basically hoping that Trump lost enough votes since the last election.

    In Europe populists carved seats from moderates in the last few years. Nothing too extreme happened because both sides have populist parties. You guys mostly just had the right represented. I don't think anyone is switching sides. I just think the lefts populists vote slept the last election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post


    I think his debate style is academic on this issue. You were both pretty sure you’re right but you’re arguing different things. You’re arguing what’s best for NY while he’s arguing what’s best for the US and what might also not be a great deal for NY. He’s arguing there is x amount of jobs. It’s all a losing game subsidizing jobs and one state loses what another gains. I don’t agree or disagree on the argument. I’m not qualified to assess the value as a nation of having these mega corporations be American corporations and what value that provides us on a global scale. Like Amazon doesn’t fit the bill but if we were subsidizing some technology with crossover military applications, how do you quantify that?

    I agree with him in a theoretical sense on a lot of it, but I’m no expert at this, but I do know playing the smartest game as he describes it requires some country that is free of corruption and lobbying and protectionist in a way we never will be free of those things. [B]By the rules of the game we play here in America, NY lost a whole lot of jobs and taxes and I don’t think 3.4 billion in incentives to any other business will provide the windfall Amazon would. I don’t know that, but I’d be seriously surprised if the bottom line for some coalition of smaller business would generate the salaries and taxes of an Amazon.
    exactly. if new york could just make the same (or better) offers to other companies, they already would have. i'm highly suspect that new york can simply replace those jobs and revenue with something else.

    fwiw, i've read like 1000 articles on this from all viewpoints but i've never seen anyone make that sort of argument.
    Oh i didn't say they can necessarily do what they would have gotten from this deal. Just that if you're willing to give tax incentives you will have takers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post

    exactly. if new york could just make the same (or better) offers to other companies, they already would have. i'm highly suspect that new york can simply replace those jobs and revenue with something else.

    fwiw, i've read like 1000 articles on this from all viewpoints but i've never seen anyone make that sort of argument.
    Oh i didn't say they can necessarily do what they would have gotten from this deal. Just that if you're willing to give tax incentives you will have takers.
    how do we disagree again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    I was kinda trying to highlight that in my opinion you thought opposing this was stupid of AOC. I didn't think that. Is that controversial?

    I don't really think that few inaccurate numbers are important. Or the most important point. This all obv started in relation to AOC.

    There might be slight paranoia about my intentions. I'm not trolling you or gaslighting you for my own perverse amusement. I could, but i'm not. I'm nice like that.
    Out of all the people involved, AOC opposing it is by miles, quantum leap years, actually retarded.

    In a vacuum it would have brought more jobs to her district, would have made her current property owners a ton of money and created a huge amount of infrastructure investment in her district.

    It would have created a huge new tax basis, with more tax revenue and improved schools.

    But obviously she doesn’t really view her roll as representing her district because of she did, she would have supported it. Yes a few thousand locals might have been displaced, but more people would have benefited from the deal by an epic fuck ton. A lot of local businesses can pop up to support tens of thousands of upper middle income employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abrown83 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    I was kinda trying to highlight that in my opinion you thought opposing this was stupid of AOC. I didn't think that. Is that controversial?

    I don't really think that few inaccurate numbers are important. Or the most important point. This all obv started in relation to AOC.

    There might be slight paranoia about my intentions. I'm not trolling you or gaslighting you for my own perverse amusement. I could, but i'm not. I'm nice like that.
    Out of all the people involved, AOC opposing it is by miles, quantum leap years, actually retarded.

    In a vacuum it would have brought more jobs to her district, would have made her current property owners a ton of money and created a huge amount of infrastructure investment in her district.

    It would have created a huge new tax basis, with more tax revenue and improved schools.

    But obviously she doesn’t really view her roll as representing her district because of she did, she would have supported it. Yes a few thousand locals might have been displaced, but more people would have benefited from the deal by an epic fuck ton. A lot of local businesses can pop up to support tens of thousands of upper middle income employees.
    Wasn't in her district.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    Oh i didn't say they can necessarily do what they would have gotten from this deal. Just that if you're willing to give tax incentives you will have takers.
    how do we disagree again?
    I doubt we do about this point. You were just adamant about disagreeing about something when this popped up last time.

    You bolded this part from me...

    "They might not get as good deals or they might get better deals. I don't know. But i know they can get offers and if they feel like it they can invest in small businesses."

    and replied with...

    "this doesn't make any sense. if new york was capable of snapping its fingers and adding $24 billion in tax revenue and increasing 60,000 jobs without amazon, it already would have."

    ...i guess i could have said more than...

    "I'm guessing you didn't read the part you bolded. "

    ..but you know, it's not really my job and i don't like repeating things too often.

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    Exactly why did NY need all the amazing things that this deal would have brought instead of another city in the east coast?

    Is there something that makes NY extra special so it at least makes some sense to be upset about this tragery by people that don't live there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Exactly why did NY need all the amazing things that this deal would have brought instead of another city in the east coast?

    Is there something that makes NY extra special so it at least makes some sense to be upset about this tragery by people that don't live there?

    They don’t. Other places need it far more. Outside NY, most of the criticism is because it’s bad optics and politics and plays into an existing narrative about the left

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Exactly why did NY need all the amazing things that this deal would have brought instead of another city in the east coast?

    Is there something that makes NY extra special so it at least makes some sense to be upset about this tragery by people that don't live there?

    They don’t. Other places need it far more. Outside NY, most of the criticism is because it’s bad optics and politics and plays into an existing narrative about the left
    Yea that's a reasonable position. I just don't see how any Trump voter or right in general is selling this, well mostly to themselves even. That's some dedication to being upset to feel sorry for the richest man on earth. And you know Amazon with it's history of destroying jobs and small businesses. Also kinda shaky record of paying taxes to begin with.

    And then you combine that with NY. I thought that was the most hated city/state after Commiefornia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post


    They don’t. Other places need it far more. Outside NY, most of the criticism is because it’s bad optics and politics and plays into an existing narrative about the left
    Yea that's a reasonable position. I just don't see how any Trump voter or right in general is selling this, well mostly to themselves even. That's some dedication to being upset to feel sorry for the richest man on earth. And you know Amazon with it's history of destroying jobs and small businesses. Also kinda shaky record of paying taxes to begin with.

    And then you combine that with NY. I thought that was the most hated city/state after Commiefornia.
    the interesting dynamic here is that bezos is a huge democrat, trump's biggest rival and owner of the washington post.

    trump supporters likely don't know how to feel.

    but the criticism from this won't be about crying for bezos or about ny losing out on the jobs. it will be the standard, liberals are great at raising taxes but have no idea of how to create jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    Yea that's a reasonable position. I just don't see how any Trump voter or right in general is selling this, well mostly to themselves even. That's some dedication to being upset to feel sorry for the richest man on earth. And you know Amazon with it's history of destroying jobs and small businesses. Also kinda shaky record of paying taxes to begin with.

    And then you combine that with NY. I thought that was the most hated city/state after Commiefornia.
    the interesting dynamic here is that bezos is a huge democrat, trump's biggest rival and owner of the washington post.

    trump supporters likely don't know how to feel.

    but the criticism from this won't be about crying for bezos or about ny losing out on the jobs. it will be the standard, liberals are great at raising taxes but have no idea of how to create jobs.
    Yea this is a tricky one. I do think it will be mostly preaching to a choir type of deal. Doubt there are any defectors from either tribe.

    This should grow AOC's legend on both sides though. Likely undeservedly. More proof of her witchy ways to the right and sealing her savior image to the left.

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    I'm thinking the 3rd component of this is also a hard sell. The make-up of the workers.

    The 20 something tech kids whose non existing kids will now cry themselves to sleep after a bowl of cold poison for supper. The same tech kids that are an integral part in creating a terminatoresque dystopia. Likely no killer robots. Mostly just bits of code that turn millions of jobs obsolete. Or bits of code that write the bits of code that do that (and maybe small killer robots).

    Less funny part is also the poaching existing jobs or unknown 12 year olds that are earmarked to be hired at some batch in 202x.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post

    the interesting dynamic here is that bezos is a huge democrat, trump's biggest rival and owner of the washington post.

    trump supporters likely don't know how to feel.

    but the criticism from this won't be about crying for bezos or about ny losing out on the jobs. it will be the standard, liberals are great at raising taxes but have no idea of how to create jobs.
    Yea this is a tricky one. I do think it will be mostly preaching to a choir type of deal. Doubt there are any defectors from either tribe.

    This should grow AOC's legend on both sides though. Likely undeservedly. More proof of her witchy ways to the right and sealing her savior image to the left.
    Bezos is also a capitalist. He didn’t raise the minimum wages in Amazon until Bernie Sanders made a huge stink about it. He prolly did the math and thought that it would be cheaper in the long run to placate the left on that demand, as we haven’t seen his net worth appreciably suffer from raising those wages.
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    sad when even donald trump jr. is making good points.

    this goes back to AOC's fundamental misunderstanding of what was being offered to amazon or outright lying to the public.

    oh and, of course, potential presidential candidate bill de blasio was asked about these AOC's comments on meet the press this past weekend.

    get used to this.

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    Lol, her angry face is hella cute...

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post



    sad when even donald trump jr. is making good points.

    this goes back to AOC's fundamental misunderstanding of what was being offered to amazon or outright lying to the public.

    oh and, of course, potential presidential candidate bill de blasio was asked about these AOC's comments on meet the press this past weekend.

    get used to this.
    Well when Junior agrees with you i think this case is closed. When it comes to pedigree of idiots he really is a pure one.

    I doubt you can find a single reputable economist that has trouble understanding how these type of tax incentives work. It's not an investment strategy. It does require long term thinking, but that 27 bill wasn't coming tomorrow either. Very literally think these tax incentives as rake. It's the same concept. If you don't understand it, it doesn't mean that those that do are lying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post



    sad when even donald trump jr. is making good points.

    this goes back to AOC's fundamental misunderstanding of what was being offered to amazon or outright lying to the public.

    oh and, of course, potential presidential candidate bill de blasio was asked about these AOC's comments on meet the press this past weekend.

    get used to this.
    Well when Junior agrees with you i think this case is closed. When it comes to pedigree of idiots he really is a pure one.

    I doubt you can find a single reputable economist that has trouble understanding how these type of tax incentives work. It's not an investment strategy. It does require long term thinking, but that 27 bill wasn't coming tomorrow either. Very literally think these tax incentives as rake. It's the same concept. If you don't understand it, it doesn't mean that those that do are lying.
    lol, we're talking about different things again.

    for the sake of clarity, i have no position one way or another as to your tax incentive points.

    don jr. is saying AOC was factually incorrect in thinking that NY was handing over $3 billion it already had to amazon, as the $3 billion would have come from tax breaks.

    AOC believed that ny had the money and was handing it over to amazon. not in a philosophical, down the line kind of way. but in a literal sense.

    and as i predicted, democrat presidential candidates are already being forced to comment on her errors.

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