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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Taxes don't go up? Then how is it paid for?

    Do you think the savings from "streamlining" welfare would be that large to cover a payment every month to every American?

    Even if you're trying to say that those who don't need it will pay additional taxes exactly equal to what they receive, what's the point of that? Why not just eliminate it for those people?

    I'm just not understanding where you're going with your advocacy of UBI, unless you actually want wealth redistribution.

    Otherwise it is far more efficient to simply reform welfare.
    This all is in response to your claim that UBI "obviously" is funded by increasing taxes. I'm showing you a way to fund UBI without increasing taxes. There is no UBI unless it involves everyone (or everyone over 18 depending which model you choose).

    And yes when i say something offsets something we are talking 1-1=0 type of deal.

    I don't much care about UBI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    The rich "pay the poor" for their work, not out of fear of crime and civil uprising.

    Regarding jobs, if there ever becomes a situation where the poor are seeking minimum wage jobs and there are not enough jobs for them, then I would support some kind of assistance for those people.

    That's typically not the case, though. It is not at all difficult to get a minimum wage job, even during bad economic times. It's the middle and upper level jobs which become difficult to secure during periods of economic recession. In fact, sometimes you will hear the "McJobs" complaint from those questioning low unemployment numbers, stating that many people are taking jobs beneath their skill and education level, and thus low unemployment numbers can be misleading.

    But rarely do you hear that vast numbers of people on welfare are attempting to find low-wage work, and are repeatedly failing to succeed.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there, anyway.
    US hasn't had full employment in decades. There are less jobs that pay living wages than there are unemployed. In a game of musical chairs it's not hard to get a seat, but someone is always left without a seat. It doesn't matter at all how hard participants play as long as every seat is filled. I don't really see a point in questioning why one player isn't sitting.

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    Actually last year there was speculation that US was first time at full employment since it became a policy goal in 78. Markets didn't reflect that and you still get your employment data from a monthly survey. So there was some doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by monsterj View Post

    That's how the tax system works Druff. Have you never gotten a refund? Or, have you ever had to pay quarterly? It's like you haven't paid taxes in years or something...hmmm.
    Refunds are not mandatory. You can elect for lesser withholdings to bring your refund down or make it nonexistent.

    Quarterly estimated taxes are also not for overpaying by design. They are attempting to estimate what your income will be for that year, and then you pay quarterly based upon that, because otherwise self-employed individuals get away with delaying their tax payments for a full year.

    There is no such thing in the US tax code which requires you to pay with the guarantee of a refund. If you owe to the IRS and they owe you back, you can always subtract one for the other.

    Also, I'm totally shocked that monsterj the "conservative" is picking a petty point like this from my long, anti-UBI mesasge, and hasn't had one critical word about UBI itself.

    Tell us more about your conservatism, monsterj.
    It's not a petty point because it is the foundation of your defense. If you don't even understand how taxes work, which you clearly do not, you shouldn't engage in arguements about them. Or, you really have never have gotten a refund, in which case, well done, but the vast majority of people have, so the concept of UBI that is being articulated does make sense(I am against UBI).

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    Presidential Candidate Andrew Yang's Case for UBI

     
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      Mintjewlips:

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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterj View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    Refunds are not mandatory. You can elect for lesser withholdings to bring your refund down or make it nonexistent.

    Quarterly estimated taxes are also not for overpaying by design. They are attempting to estimate what your income will be for that year, and then you pay quarterly based upon that, because otherwise self-employed individuals get away with delaying their tax payments for a full year.

    There is no such thing in the US tax code which requires you to pay with the guarantee of a refund. If you owe to the IRS and they owe you back, you can always subtract one for the other.

    Also, I'm totally shocked that monsterj the "conservative" is picking a petty point like this from my long, anti-UBI mesasge, and hasn't had one critical word about UBI itself.

    Tell us more about your conservatism, monsterj.
    It's not a petty point because it is the foundation of your defense. If you don't even understand how taxes work, which you clearly do not, you shouldn't engage in arguements about them. Or, you really have never have gotten a refund, in which case, well done, but the vast majority of people have, so the concept of UBI that is being articulated does make sense(I am against UBI).
    Good job continuing to dodge the conservatism question.

    Can you at least answer the question as to what you think of UBI, and why you're for or against it?

    Also please explain how I "don't understand how taxes work".

    The refund is for overpayment. You are not required to overpay. Provided you do not undepay, you are never penalized.

    Quarterly taxes are for self-employed people. You can either (properly) estimate that year's income, or just pay 110% of the prior year's taxes. Again, when it's all said and done, if you did not underpay each quarter, then there is no penalty.

    While it is often wise to slightly overpay in order to avoid the underpayment penalty (since you can rarely predict exact business income), it is never a requirement to overpay and then get a refund.

    Being a professional poker player, I deal with this each year.

    Even if you're an employee, you can always adjust the number of allowances if you notice your taxes are over-withheld. Most people don't do this because it can be tough to calculate whether your taxes are being over-withheld, so most people just trust the payroll system and end up with a small refund. But again, it's never mandatory to overpay, and any refund is a result of the employer either over-withholding or the employee choosing the wrong number of allowances.

    Go ahead and tell me where it is required to overpay taxes and then get a refund. I'm waiting.

    Also, I'm still waiting to hear about your conservatism. I'm going to bring this up every time you attempt to respond to me in a political thread, so the question isn't going away.

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    Nobody has EVER said it was a requirement(That's a strawman, stop doing that). I have asked you repeatedly if you have ever gotten a refund, which is essentially the same thing as UBI system that is being thrown around in this thread. I do not like UBI and I do not like refunds, the government doesn't deserver interest free loans and from the terribleness of Social Security, eventually they will turn into IOUs and paid out via borrowed money.

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    I'm against any form of "welfare", corporate or social.

    Logical social programs that make sense are more appealing to me, like helping those who can't help themselves, in any mental or physical way.

    My only concern is allowing the government to run these social programs.

    Social programs should be run by those that are passionate and compelled to help people. When we have bureaucracies and all it's fails run social programs it only hinders help. We pay people that are just there for a pay check to try to help people in need.

    Also, no one has addressed the fact that people receiving welfare are generally those who suffer from severe PTSD of some sort. We can't just throw money at the situation for the sake of some nefarious plot to collapse this nation by machiavellian means of a constant barrage of assaults from every conceivable angle, including gas lighting the entire population into thinking "spending more than you make is good"........

     
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      cleatus: hey retard, ur gabble beyond 1 line is a waste. "IM LEAVING TOO" :TomCruiselol x4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GambleBotsSatire View Post
    Presidential Candidate Andrew Yang's Case for UBI

    Lol, should we give everyone a Lenovo laptop aswell???....
    "Druff would suck his own dick if it were long enough"- Brandon "drexel" Gerson

    "ann coulter literally has more common sense than pfa."-Sonatine

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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterj View Post
    Nobody has EVER said it was a requirement(That's a strawman, stop doing that). I have asked you repeatedly if you have ever gotten a refund, which is essentially the same thing as UBI system that is being thrown around in this thread. I do not like UBI and I do not like refunds, the government doesn't deserver interest free loans and from the terribleness of Social Security, eventually they will turn into IOUs and paid out via borrowed money.
    Yes, I've gotten small refunds because it's either a pain in the ass to change exemptions or, more recently, because I can't predict my poker income.

    But again, it is not mandatory to pay something I'm going to get as a refund. And in fact, I have also legally "underpaid" when paying 110% of the taxes from the previous year, yet making more than 110% of the previous year's income.

    My point about UBI is that it's tax-funded, and the vast majority of people receiving it wouldn't need it, and in fact it would be funded by their taxes. Therefore, it's just a pointless circulation of money.

    That's not my only point why UBI sucks, but that was one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by monsterj View Post
    Nobody has EVER said it was a requirement(That's a strawman, stop doing that). I have asked you repeatedly if you have ever gotten a refund, which is essentially the same thing as UBI system that is being thrown around in this thread. I do not like UBI and I do not like refunds, the government doesn't deserver interest free loans and from the terribleness of Social Security, eventually they will turn into IOUs and paid out via borrowed money.
    Yes, I've gotten small refunds because it's either a pain in the ass to change exemptions or, more recently, because I can't predict my poker income.

    But again, it is not mandatory to pay something I'm going to get as a refund. And in fact, I have also legally "underpaid" when paying 110% of the taxes from the previous year, yet making more than 110% of the previous year's income.

    My point about UBI is that it's tax-funded, and the vast majority of people receiving it wouldn't need it, and in fact it would be funded by their taxes. Therefore, it's just a pointless circulation of money.

    That's not my only point why UBI sucks, but that was one of them.
    You're already doing all of this. It's called welfare. That's how it works. It's pragmatic purpose is stability of society.

    Oh and the reason why everyone gets UBI is that their financial situation isn't constant. It's much cheaper to pay it monthly vs applying it whenever your financial situation changes. Like that's not even close. Saying it's infinitely cheaper isn't that much of an exaggeration. Now to make this all work a lot smoother US might have to join the 21st century. Rest of the western world has been there for a while. We have decent idea what are citizens are doing and our governments have actual bargaining power.

     
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      limitles: join the 21st century rep...you bully

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    Only two types of people like the idea of UBI.

    1)Lazy self entitled losers or the mentally/physically handicapped (which is fine and understandable).
    2)Super Rich so I don't care. (Earned or inherited)

    Only one type of person dislikes the idea of UBI.

    1)Hard workers

    Case closed.

    Now should we have UBI, pick your category above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    Yes, I've gotten small refunds because it's either a pain in the ass to change exemptions or, more recently, because I can't predict my poker income.

    But again, it is not mandatory to pay something I'm going to get as a refund. And in fact, I have also legally "underpaid" when paying 110% of the taxes from the previous year, yet making more than 110% of the previous year's income.

    My point about UBI is that it's tax-funded, and the vast majority of people receiving it wouldn't need it, and in fact it would be funded by their taxes. Therefore, it's just a pointless circulation of money.

    That's not my only point why UBI sucks, but that was one of them.
    You're already doing all of this. It's called welfare. That's how it works. It's pragmatic purpose is stability of society.

    Oh and the reason why everyone gets UBI is that their financial situation isn't constant. It's much cheaper to pay it monthly vs applying it whenever your financial situation changes. Like that's not even close. Saying it's infinitely cheaper isn't that much of an exaggeration. Now to make this all work a lot smoother US might have to join the 21st century. Rest of the western world has been there for a while. We have decent idea what are citizens are doing and our governments have actual bargaining power.
    Welfare needs reform, but that's not the reform it needs.

    How is it so expensive to "apply assistance to whenever your financial situation changes"?

    Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot cheaper to only give people aid when they actually need it?

    It is not the government's responsibility to keep shoveling free money into the pockets of every citizen just in case they hit upon hard times. Assistance should come as needed, not in the form of "take this money every month, because who knows, maybe you might need it at some point".

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    The rich "pay the poor" for their work, not out of fear of crime and civil uprising.

    Regarding jobs, if there ever becomes a situation where the poor are seeking minimum wage jobs and there are not enough jobs for them, then I would support some kind of assistance for those people.

    That's typically not the case, though. It is not at all difficult to get a minimum wage job, even during bad economic times. It's the middle and upper level jobs which become difficult to secure during periods of economic recession. In fact, sometimes you will hear the "McJobs" complaint from those questioning low unemployment numbers, stating that many people are taking jobs beneath their skill and education level, and thus low unemployment numbers can be misleading.

    But rarely do you hear that vast numbers of people on welfare are attempting to find low-wage work, and are repeatedly failing to succeed.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there, anyway.
    US hasn't had full employment in decades. There are less jobs that pay living wages than there are unemployed. In a game of musical chairs it's not hard to get a seat, but someone is always left without a seat. It doesn't matter at all how hard participants play as long as every seat is filled. I don't really see a point in questioning why one player isn't sitting.
    well, you have a number of quality ideas to contribute to the discussion, but your claim that US has not achieved full percentage employment for decades I don't agree with...indeed, I believe the unemployment rate right now is nearly as low as it can ever get---at about 4 to 5%--because there is always some caused by people changing jobs due to relocations of businesses, families, workers gaining education and seeking new positions: what economists call frictional unemployment, which exist just because a vital capitalist economy is constantly adjusting/redeploying resources (of which labor is one kind) to meet demands of the market

    another related problem is underemployment - in which people with abilities and skills are performing work well below their capacity due to lack of opportunity ( i.e., college educated drama/music majors working as waiters )...it is a growing problem as automation/robotics eliminate/reduce skilled labor needs...i agree with you that this problem is one that a guaranteed basic income could be of help with
    Last edited by GrenadaRoger; 02-12-2019 at 07:15 PM.
    (long before there was a PFA i had my Grenade & Crossbones avatar at DD)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GambleBotsSatire View Post
    Presidential Candidate Andrew Yang's Case for UBI
    Well, some truckers whose jobs will be taken over by robots are already working towards a post-trucking career as YouTube entertainers.


     
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      GrenadaRoger: omg she is disgusting! got any more like her?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Were Republicans cowardly or unethical not to go along with [convicting Trump in the second impeachment Senate trial]? No. The smart move was to reject it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    1. I'm not saying give me 1k and i'll send you 700 at any point. You will never pay more than you get. Pretty sure i've stated this a few times. You will never have to wait for your money at any point. Why would you?
    Woah, hold up. Then where does the money come from to give to poor people?

     
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      cleatus: money from several sessions of advantage buffalo hunting or stooping in the books.

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    If we are going to have “Welfare” in this country I think UBI is good approach. One of the main points of UBI is it puts a floor in for the citizenry. You could turn into a low functioning drunk and still not become homeless. The main problem to installing UBI is the issue of Citizenship. How do you deal with all the off the books people?

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    I wouldn't come near this AOC person with a
    ten foot pole

    Which also describes my humanity

    I do not want to dominate every forum
    believe me
    it attracts
    the scum of
    the earth

    but what can you do?
    If you are so gifted
    perhaps even the chosen
    one.....
    what is your recourse?
    Last edited by limitles; 02-12-2019 at 11:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post

    US hasn't had full employment in decades. There are less jobs that pay living wages than there are unemployed. In a game of musical chairs it's not hard to get a seat, but someone is always left without a seat. It doesn't matter at all how hard participants play as long as every seat is filled. I don't really see a point in questioning why one player isn't sitting.
    well, you have a number of quality ideas to contribute to the discussion, but your claim that US has not achieved full percentage employment for decades I don't agree with...indeed, I believe the unemployment rate right now is nearly as low as it can ever get---at about 4 to 5%--because there is always some caused by people changing jobs due to relocations of businesses, families, workers gaining education and seeking new positions: what economists call frictional unemployment, which exist just because a vital capitalist economy is constantly adjusting/redeploying resources (of which labor is one kind) to meet demands of the market

    another related problem is underemployment - in which people with abilities and skills are performing work well below their capacity due to lack of opportunity ( i.e., college educated drama/music majors working as waiters )...it is a growing problem as automation/robotics eliminate/reduce skilled labor needs...i agree with you that this problem is one that a guaranteed basic income could be of help with
    Yea i had a another post below it where i mentioned that. It's speculated when employment hits that level it would cause inflation and wage growth. But yea that was the first time in 40 years. There's also the part where your employment numbers are kinda iffy. It's based on a monthly survey and you're considered employed for the month if you worked any amount of time or profited in any way. So not really living wages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS_ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gimmick View Post
    1. I'm not saying give me 1k and i'll send you 700 at any point. You will never pay more than you get. Pretty sure i've stated this a few times. You will never have to wait for your money at any point. Why would you?
    Woah, hold up. Then where does the money come from to give to poor people?
    It's was about what changes if you would fund UBI from your current situation. I'm sure it's not clear since Druff spends a lot of time telling us what's wrong with welfare in general and most of it is happening right now in US. And that's kinda weird to say that's something UBI causes.

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