Originally Posted by
Peter Binklage
What position are you? Pretty big difference between utg/mp and hj/btn, e.g. he can have more QJo in the latter.
Probably flatting 88 pre in position on 40 bb stacks, especially vs an opponent as aggro and capable as Daniel Strelitz. Getting 4bet here is tragic. Seeing a flop 3-4 ways with 88 and 40 beebs behind is not. I get the impression that you want to 3bet him for the sake of 3betting him, without regard to whether the hand you have works well in a 3bet range.
Your flop cbet is kinda massive by today's MTT standards; the plus side of this is you can prob eliminate big draws that have a lot of incentive to stuff OOP when he just calls. So even though I don't think he has a flush very often on the river, I do think he has better than 88 on the river often enough to justify folding.
Sorry, should've mentioned positions.
I was in the cutoff, and he was two to my right.
I wouldn't have 3-bet it if he were UTG/UTG+1 because from what I saw, most of his raising took place from middle pos or later. So I would have suspected a good and from early, whereas from middle or later he could be doing it with something fairly weak. That's why I 3-bet. Was hoping he'd think, "That middle aged white guy is 3-betting me for the first time ever, better lay down the J7o", and I'd chip up a little without having to see a flop or deal with any soft of tricky play on his part postflop.
The 40 bb stack in this spot was indeed the greatest challenge. Too small to maneuver much postflop without committing my entire stack, and too big to just shove on the initial preflop open.
I agree the c-bet was a bit large by today's standards, but it was still only a little more than half pot, and I wanted to give the appearance of the "middle aged guy who has a real hand and doesn't want to let anyone catch up cheaply" thing.
The board was not dry at all (KT and spades), so if I bet smaller, it's very possible he would look at my shortish stack and think, "He's trying to bet small because he doesn't want to commit the rest of his chips to this, I'm gonna shove with air", and then indeed I'd have to fold.
So I wanted to bet something small enough to fold and not be super-short, but large enough to make it look like I hit the flop.
I agree with the rest of what you said. I, too, though that he would check-raise shove it on the flop if he had QJ or spades, knowing that he was calling my shove anyway, so he might as well just get it in and hope I fold without him having to get there. That part and the river bet size were enough information to where I felt his 11500 river bet was probably something involving a ten (maybe even a weak ten like Th9h), and therefore a call was out of the question. I couldn't shove because there was too high of a chance that he would reluctantly call off the final 15k and bust me.
Anyway, it looks like most people here feel my river fold was correct, and that shoving the turn probably wouldn't have been correct. The only real points of contention here seem to be my preflop 3-bet and the subsequent c-bet size.
I admit I thought of flatting the 88, but it really did seem incredibly weak against a guy who was running over the table by raising a ton of hands from middle/late pos, so I felt it looked strong enough on my part to where there was a good chance he'd fold. If he held something like Th9h, it makes sense why he called and wanted to see a flop, and then my goose was pretty much cooked.