ElevenGrover announces UB documentary, Ultimate Beat

[thiefcatcher]

If I insulted you, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just misremembering, but reading some of your earlier blogs I kind of got the impression that you had the goods on someone else. Then a few months back I find out you're working with Heick. I thought it was worth asking while you were here.

TC, if you weren't trying a good-cop/bad-cop routine here with EG, I'd be more inclined to elaborate, but I'm not buying what you're selling. That said, I found the inference disgusting. I repeat: I don't have anything else that would be actionable for players to use in any sort of restitution-seeking lawsuit. The mostly-complete list of UB owners, I published that long ago, which I assembled by hand. I think EG has the true total list now anyway, and I don't.

Edit/Added: The transcript of my interview with Jack Bates? Sorry, not going to publish it. EG has already accused Bates as being part of this ridiculous, fantasized blackmail plot. I will say this, though: Both the actual interview and a transcript thereof have been in the hands of the FBI for quite a while now; it ran a hair under three hours. Jack had lots to say about the company and its executives, but he had no evidence of any kind concerning the actual cheating. What Jack brought forth was his initial knowledge of how the God Mode tool came to be, as relayed in that Reddit thread.

Cool, I'm not interested in your interview with Jack Bates. I believe him when he says he doesn't know anything about cheating. You notice how I haven't asked a single question about him, or brought his name up? There's good reason for that. I'm after thieves.

Haley, for the third time, does Carolyn Heick have evidence of anyone who cheated players? The KGC named Russ. Does she have evidence on anyone other than Russ and his minions?

And to answer (again) to the best of my knowledge, I don't know of any. That may because she doesn't have it, or that she didn't share it with me if she did have some, or that she isn't even one of my sources. You can decide for yourself.

Thanks for answering. I'll again take Jack Bates at his word when he said that he and Carolyn are working with you.

There are two publicly available document I've brought your attention to in this thread. Maybe you should ask yourself why is this the first time you've seen them.

[haleylh]

Thanks for answering. I'll again take Jack Bates at his word when he said that he and Carolyn are working with you.

There are two publicly available document I've brought your attention to in this thread. Maybe you should ask yourself why is this the first time you've seen them.

That's up for Jack to say. I cannot confirm or deny other sources at this point, which may be a professional splitting of hairs, but it is what it is. I do not deny having communicated in the past with Carolyn Heick, though the exact nature of those communications is not for you to know.

One thing Jack misspoke about is that they came together to recruit me. I contacted Jack on my own, and didn't even know the two of them worked together at the time. Jack went something like a year after my first attempt to talk with him before he agreed to correspond with me; he blew me off at first the same way he did Mookman. It was only much later that he talked to me, and he only did that because EG threatened him. You can accept my word or not; I have the e-mails but I don't give enough of a damn about you to print them here.

Regarding the publicly available documents, I dare say it's not your business how I spend my time. I'll get to something at a time and place of my own choosing, and not when you want me to. I've taken about a year off from this stuff for personal and family reasons, not a goddamned little bit of which is your business.

[thiefcatcher]

Thanks for answering. I'll again take Jack Bates at his word when he said that he and Carolyn are working with you.

There are two publicly available document I've brought your attention to in this thread. Maybe you should ask yourself why is this the first time you've seen them.

That's up for Jack to say. I cannot confirm or deny other sources at this point, which may be a professional splitting of hairs, but it is what it is. I do not deny having communicated in the past with Carolyn Heick, though the exact nature of those communications is not for you to know.

One thing Jack misspoke about is that they came together to recruit me. I contacted Jack on my own, and didn't even know the two of them worked together at the time. Jack went something like a year after my first attempt to talk with him before he agreed to correspond with me; he blew me off at first the same way he did Mookman. It was only much later that he talked to me, and he only did that because EG threatened him. You can accept my word or not; I have the e-mails but I don't give enough of a damn about you to print them here.

Cool, again, I'm not concerned with Jack Bates. However the timeline worked with him, I really don't care. I don't have any reason to believe Jack Bates did anything illegal.

Regarding the publicly available documents, I dare say it's not your business how I spend my time. I'll get to something at a time and place of my own choosing, and not when you want me to. I've taken about a year off from this stuff for personal and family reasons, not a goddamned little bit of which is your business.

Haley, how could you read my comments about the documents and think it had anything to do with you spend your time? When I said "ask yourself", I meant for you, to ask yourself, not the readers to ask themselves.

The reason you haven't seen them before they were dropped publicly is probably because they make someone look really terrible. Imagine if I changed the name on a cheating account multiple times, I moved a huge amount of money out of that cheating account into Russ Hamilton's account, and I also received a transfer directly from that same cheating account. To any objective observer, this might look pretty horrible, it might look like a pretty straight line. Perhaps you could clear up why I would do this, but I don't think "just following orders" , "the dog ate my homework", or "a ghost was doing things in my name", would make me look innocent.

[haleylh]

Haley, how could you read my comments about the documents and think it had anything to do with you spend your time? When I said "ask yourself", I meant for you, to ask yourself, not the readers to ask themselves.

The reason you haven't seen them before they were dropped publicly is probably because they make someone look really terrible. Imagine if I changed the name on a cheating account multiple times, I moved a huge amount of money out of that cheating account into Russ Hamilton's account, and I also received a transfer directly from that same cheating account. To any objective observer, this might look pretty horrible, it might look like a pretty straight line. Perhaps you could clear up why I would do this, but I don't think "just following orders" , "the dog ate my homework", or "a ghost was doing things in my name", would make me look innocent.

Because you wrote "for you to ask yourself". I literally thought you meant me personally, and if you didn't I apologize. With a nod toward the rail, I get real tired of idiots who think that I should be acting and working as someone else's employee on this stuff. I'm not, and I work on this as I want to and can, and as the negativeness of it all doesn't beat me down. So when someone like "Pooh" flings himself at the screen, it's irritating. (He's blocked, btw; I'm going Pooh-free.) I don't give a damn if someone thinks I'm arrogant and unlikeable; I have to be that way at times to get this shit handled.

Since you rephrased, I will answer. I've probably spent 8-10 hours on the phone listening to Travis Makar tell really strange, meandering stories, some stuff about UB, sometimes about other stuff. He called me at all hours of the day and night, and I took lots of notes, but he would never cough up any hard documents.

As far as I know (and I'm just going by what Travis told me), all of this stuff came off of Russ's own laptop, which ended up in Makar's possession God knows how. No one else had it, and Greg Pierson ordered the destruction of a lot of these records on the UB server side.

I absolutely agree with you that the reason you haven't seen them before is because they make someone look really terrible, and that someone is Travis, because when you understand the gestalt of it all -- including Russ being all thumbs when it came to computers -- you knew Travis had to be a part of it. I don't think Travis gives a damn about that part of it, but he sat on it so until the statutes of limitations had passed. Makar should be sued, in my opinion, not that there's much there. I'd testify against him based on what I now know.

Still, it is beyond the scope of posts here to explain how utterly corrupt the corporate culture was at UB; that's what part of my (whenever) book is for. Within that culture, a lot of shady shit was done just in the course of day-to-day events, but it was all done at the orders of the people at the very top. Russ ran the poker side. Greg ran the programming/business side.

There is a difference between a company with a corrupt culture, such as UB or AP, and imagining that the enterprise was something like James Bond's Goldfinger, wherein Auric Goldfinger apparently found a way to recruit thousands of evil minions to help take over Fort Knox without anyone being clued in. Where did they run the "Evil Minions Wanted" ads? Still, some people cannot separate reality from fantasy. UB was corrupt because Russ Hamilton and Greg Pierson and others like them controlled it.

Now, do I think Carolyn Heick is a saint? Nope. But I also don't think she was a knowing part of the cheating -- even though I 100% agree she created some of those fake accounts. I'm absolutely convinced she didn't take part in any blackmail scheme; and that's an entirely different discussion as well. Further, I know what that $5,000 was for and it had nothing to do with the cheating. Russ used those accounts for all sorts of things, legal and illegal both. But I am just not going to offer the defamer who's posting here any assistance in this matter whatsoever.

[thiefcatcher]

I'll get to the rest of your post when I get back.

and Greg Pierson ordered the destruction of a lot of these records on the UB server side.

Wait, if you have proof of this, then how can you be offended by my earlier question? This is exactly the type of thing I was asking about. When I asked for "evidence of cheating", I thought it was understood that stuff like, say, the part of a criminal conspiracy where people cover up the cheating, was covered under my question.

This type of evidence would be huge in aiding in a lawsuit.

[haleylh]

I'll get to the rest of your post when I get back.

and Greg Pierson ordered the destruction of a lot of these records on the UB server side.

Wait, if you have proof of this, then how can you be offended by my earlier question? This is exactly the type of thing I was asking about. When I asked for "evidence of cheating", I thought it was understood that stuff like, say, the part of a criminal conspiracy where people cover up the cheating, was covered under my question.

This type of evidence would be huge in aiding in a lawsuit.

Good catch. I overtyped there, so let me explain.

I don't have hard evidence of it, but I have circumstantial evidence that seems to show things have been deleted. One example is that one of Pierson's early accounts was ATM. It's nowhere to be found today, and it's among those I've had Tizzle and others look for, and he went through his entire PT database. I have found a later account of Greg's called ATM2, but that one's not the original. Several insiders had multiple accounts that were the same except for numbers at the end. Just off the top of my head, Uri Kozai had a whole bunch of "MRCOFFEE__" accounts, to show one example.

Multiple sources have told me about Greg ordering the destruction of records, and their tales are supported by some of these holes that pop up in the data. Nonetheless, it's circumstantial, whether I believe it or not. The "hard evidence," the actual ATM account information, I don't have.

[thiefcatcher]

Haley, how could you read my comments about the documents and think it had anything to do with you spend your time? When I said "ask yourself", I meant for you, to ask yourself, not the readers to ask themselves.

The reason you haven't seen them before they were dropped publicly is probably because they make someone look really terrible. Imagine if I changed the name on a cheating account multiple times, I moved a huge amount of money out of that cheating account into Russ Hamilton's account, and I also received a transfer directly from that same cheating account. To any objective observer, this might look pretty horrible, it might look like a pretty straight line. Perhaps you could clear up why I would do this, but I don't think "just following orders" , "the dog ate my homework", or "a ghost was doing things in my name", would make me look innocent.

Since you rephrased, I will answer. I've probably spent 8-10 hours on the phone listening to Travis Makar tell really strange, meandering stories, some stuff about UB, sometimes about other stuff. He called me at all hours of the day and night, and I took lots of notes, but he would never cough up any hard documents.

As far as I know (and I'm just going by what Travis told me), all of this stuff came off of Russ's own laptop, which ended up in Makar's possession God knows how. No one else had it, and Greg Pierson ordered the destruction of a lot of these records on the UB server side.

It's kinda weird how Russ let Travis back around to steal his burner phone after Travis proclaimed to the world that he lifted files off Russ' computer. Funny how that type of thing happens.

Back to the topic. How does Travis end up with an email that is between Carolyn Heick and people inside Excapsa? Russ isn't copied anywhere on the email. In your post you tell us that Russ is "all thumbs" when it comes to computers, so surely Russ didn't lift the emails from Carolyn's computer. A layman would assume Heick gave those emails to Travis. What reason would she have for doing that?

For anyone following at home, the emails in question can be seen in the file "host.pdf" at www.pokerxanadu.com/ub

Furthermore, if you read those emails it looks like Heick's job entails a little bit more than catching credit card fraud. She is corresponding in those emails with Jim Ryan, Gail Gleed, and other Excapsa people. Those emails in the host file don't say anything about credit card fraud. It looks like Gail Gleed saw some weird money movement and asks Carolyn what the hell is going on.

I absolutely agree with you that the reason you haven't seen them before is because they make someone look really terrible, and that someone is Travis, because when you understand the gestalt of it all -- including Russ being all thumbs when it came to computers -- you knew Travis had to be a part of it. I don't think Travis gives a damn about that part of it, but he sat on it so until the statutes of limitations had passed. Makar should be sued, in my opinion, not that there's much there. I'd testify against him based on what I now know.

Still, it is beyond the scope of posts here to explain how utterly corrupt the corporate culture was at UB; that's what part of my (whenever) book is for. Within that culture, a lot of shady shit was done just in the course of day-to-day events, but it was all done at the orders of the people at the very top. Russ ran the poker side. Greg ran the programming/business side.

There is a difference between a company with a corrupt culture, such as UB or AP, and imagining that the enterprise was something like James Bond's Goldfinger, wherein Auric Goldfinger apparently found a way to recruit thousands of evil minions to help take over Fort Knox without anyone being clued in. Where did they run the "Evil Minions Wanted" ads? Still, some people cannot separate reality from fantasy. UB was corrupt because Russ Hamilton and Greg Pierson and others like them controlled it.

Ok, so Greg and Russ fostered a culture of corruption, and Heick didn't think maybe she was doing something bad when these same guys asked her to create accounts, and move hundreds of thousands of dollars out of them? And after these corrupt guys tell her to create these accounts, and move the money from them, she doesn't look at iesnare and see that Russ is logging into these accounts from the same ips that he logs into his regular account with?

Seems like a fraud management background of any type, even cc fraud, would set off a thousand alarm bells.

Now, do I think Carolyn Heick is a saint? Nope. But I also don't think she was a knowing part of the cheating -- even though I 100% agree she created some of those fake accounts. I'm absolutely convinced she didn't take part in any blackmail scheme; and that's an entirely different discussion as well. Further, I know what that $5,000 was for and it had nothing to do with the cheating. Russ used those accounts for all sorts of things, legal and illegal both. But I am just not going to offer the defamer who's posting here any assistance in this matter whatsoever.

If Heick was used by her superiors to help facilitate the theft of tens of millions of dollars, this couldn't have made her happy. After she realized she was used, she did what? Sat on a bunch of documents? Slowly leaked them out? Let Jack Bates twist in the wind? Seems like she could've anonymously leaked them to players immediately.

BTW, there are some more emails from Heick that are supposed to show or imply that UB kept funds that were confiscated for collusion or cheating. So, did she know that player's money was being kept by the company, and did nothing to help or inform players?

These files are the "ubkept" files(plural) on www.pokerxanadu.com/ub

It also doesn't really matter what the 5k was for, it was money that was stolen from players and shipped directly to "Spent Hen".

[haleylh]

Ok, so Greg and Russ fostered a culture of corruption, and Heick didn't think maybe she was doing something bad when these same guys asked her to create accounts, and move hundreds of thousands of dollars out of them? And after these corrupt guys tell her to create these accounts, and move the money from them, she doesn't look at iesnare and see that Russ is logging into these accounts from the same ips that he logs into his regular account with?

Seems like a fraud management background of any type, even cc fraud, would set off a thousand alarm bells.

If Heick was used by her superiors to help facilitate the theft of tens of millions of dollars, this couldn't have made her happy. After she realized she was used, she did what? Sat on a bunch of documents? Slowly leaked them out? Let Jack Bates twist in the wind? Seems like she could've anonymously leaked them to players immediately.

BTW, there are some more emails from Heick that are supposed to show or imply that UB kept funds that were confiscated for collusion or cheating. So, did she know that player's money was being kept by the company, and did nothing to help or inform players?

These files are the "ubkept" files(plural) on www.pokerxanadu.com/ub

It also doesn't really matter what the 5k was for, it was money that was stolen from players and shipped directly to "Spent Hen".

And who would she be reporting this to? Yep, that would be Russ, the boss. The job of the previous whistleblower, the first prop manager, went away quick when she brought up possible cheating concerns. I'd say that most people don't have whatever it takes to be a whistleblower in the first place, particularly for a company that's clearly skirting the law to operate and is already under a ton of UIGEA pressure. This sounds nice and and noble but it's just not a realistic expectation; it's an exceptional person who's able to do that and walk away from a well-paying job, instead of waiting until later on when the whole thing has already blown up.

Let's also not forget that UB was a site where multi-accounting was not only allowed, it was encouraged, with as many as 30 accounts per player. Since the guy who was in charge of investigating the cheating (Russ) was the same guy actually doing most of it, I'm sure he had a nice reason for why he needed those fake-named accounts.

Your logic on the $5K holds up only if Heick knew that money was stolen at the time she received it. You may also be wrong in another way: Those cheating accounts were used both for legitimate and illegitimate play, and Russ did it that way for cover. I'll also note for you that there was a lot of "funny money" on the site that was never converted into actual dollars.

The e-mails about money not being returned? Those actually speak more to Heick's general decency, when compared to the other UB people. The way I read those e-mails, she complained about that money being defrauded from other players and not being returned to them, which would have required some sort of hand-history evaluation to be done similar to what happened when the major cheating was uncovered. IMO, she wasn't bragging about it, she was complaining. Given that Russ alone was probably stealing 100 times as much as those pikers, it's pretty easy to see why Heick would have been overruled.

[thiefcatcher]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Mrs. Heick.

There was another interesting thing in those files - ftft.txt. It's a hand history, but at the very top of the file it has a name, followed by a url and in the url it says something like "chngpass". Do you think this is supposed to be what Travis was talking about when he said employees were "joyriding" accounts? Do you think this was really happening? For me it's hard to tell when Travis is telling the truth(he's someone we can probably find more common ground on).

This is the exact url

https://game.ultimatebet.com/verify_...4f439e478f02c4

[Deal]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Mrs. Heick.

There was another interesting thing in those files - ftft.txt. It's a hand history, but at the very top of the file it has a name, followed by a url and in the url it says something like "chngpass". Do you think this is supposed to be what Travis was talking about when he said employees were "joyriding" accounts? Do you think this was really happening? For me it's hard to tell when Travis is telling the truth(he's someone we can probably find more common ground on).

This is the exact url

https://game.ultimatebet.com/verify_...4f439e478f02c4

I know first hand that an employee was joyriding accounts. There was a big thread about it on the old AP forum that I have a copy of saved before the forum was deleted. Multiple people had it happen to them. An insider confirmed to me that it was an employee and that he was fired for it. People who publicly complained got their balances reinstated. Who knows how many dormant accounts were successfully pillaged.

[haleylh]

That link doesn't work. I'm due at a friend's house for dinner in a little bit so I'll look at it via that filename tomorrow. There was def some joyriding, though I don't have the names of specific victims.

[thiefcatcher]

That link doesn't work. I'm due at a friend's house for dinner in a little bit so I'll look at it via that filename tomorrow. There was def some joyriding, though I don't have the names of specific victims.

Haley, that's the url that was in the file. The file is up on PX's site.

[thiefcatcher]

http://www.pokerxanadu.com/ub/fftt.txt

[haleylh]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Mrs. Heick.

There was another interesting thing in those files - ftft.txt. It's a hand history, but at the very top of the file it has a name, followed by a url and in the url it says something like "chngpass". Do you think this is supposed to be what Travis was talking about when he said employees were "joyriding" accounts? Do you think this was really happening? For me it's hard to tell when Travis is telling the truth(he's someone we can probably find more common ground on).

This is the exact url

https://game.ultimatebet.com/verify_...4f439e478f02c4

I looked at it and I don't know. My hunch is that this might be a cut-and-paste job gone awry. I know Mogwai played high stakes, but he doesn't appear anywhere in the hand history except at the top, and it's a real long history. Also, the table name and stuff seems to be missing, so I'm thinking someone had a text document open for saving stuff and accidentally overlaid something or left a couple of lines from an earlier C&P undeleted. It's one of those things I'd scratch my head about and probably not trust too deeply as an indicator for the joyriding stuff.

[elevengrover]

The job of the previous whistleblower, the first prop manager, went away quick when she brought up possible cheating concerns.

To be fair, Lisa Spain is a bad example. For nearly everyone who knew her personally, the first thing they mention is a serious drug/alcohol problem. Russ even says on the tape he tried to get her into rehab. Dunno, but her credibility is easily destroyed and she probably knew it. Stranger though is that she is large loser on the RedWhiteNBlue account (nearly $300k back when $300k was real online poker money), yet she withdrew close to a million dollars. She got a minor refund from the cheating suggesting most, if not all of her encounters were pre-2006. She told us for the record she recants everything she said previously. My guess is this won't stand long though and she will say something else, somewhere else obviously subject to increased scrutiny based on the above.

That said, I don't think thiefcatcher was seeking reasons for Heick not being a whistleblower. I read his post more as to why an innocent person who is made aware of massive criminality and worse, made aware that they were used as a key enabler of that criminality would act the way Heick did AFTER the cheating was uncovered and she no longer had a job. Most people would feel two responsibilities, first to ensure players got everything they deserved and second to turn the criminals in. We can dispense with the 2nd as academic and filled with risk. But the first is a problem because telling an insider she took a large quantity of internal administrative data from company servers to protect herself sets up a situation where she has accessory after the fact status and likely a significant liability for those losses. Players called for info so they could pursue a legal strategy against the company and so the opportunity to clear both her conscience and liability existed with plenty of ways for data to find its way into the right hands.

Instead, the data seems to have found its way into exactly the wrong hands.

[haleylh]

Stranger though is that she is large loser on the RedWhiteNBlue account (nearly $300k back when $300k was real online poker money), yet she withdrew close to a million dollars.

Tell me again why it is you haven't released these account-balance records and refund histories you seem to have?

And to clarify, I'm not talking about general-populace players, except those who have publicly been acknowledged to have received refunds. I'm talking about accounts like this that are attached to company insiders, employers, and friends/family thereof.

[haleylh]

Stranger though is that she is large loser on the RedWhiteNBlue account (nearly $300k back when $300k was real online poker money), yet she withdrew close to a million dollars.

Tell me again why it is you haven't released these account-balance records and refund histories you seem to have?

And to clarify, I'm not talking about general-populace players, except those who have publicly been acknowledged to have received refunds. I'm talking about accounts like this that are attached to company insiders, employers, and friends/family thereof.

For the second time, why haven't you released these records?

[elevengrover]

Tell me again why it is you haven't released these account-balance records and refund histories you seem to have?

And to clarify, I'm not talking about general-populace players, except those who have publicly been acknowledged to have received refunds. I'm talking about accounts like this that are attached to company insiders, employers, and friends/family thereof.

For the second time, why haven't you released these records?

Well counselor, because I don't see any need. As far as I can tell, we are the only ones doing an honest investigation. Providing records to you so you can use them in a PR effort to clear Heick and any others you are working with is gross. Your argument (like nearly all of your arguments) is a straw man, built to suggest our withholding is no different than yours (and Heick). We put a lot of documents into the public back in the day, but the records you are referring to came this year after the statute of limitations expired. And of course, I had no role at UltimateBet and did not benefit from the cheating.

Heick's documents (including info from the recordings) found their way into your blogs as early as 2009 when the release could have been used in a player lawsuit. Heick can put all this to rest by sitting for an interview in our film. I would think an innocent person would seek out honest efforts to reveal the truth.

[haleylh]

For the second time, why haven't you released these records?

Well counselor, because I don't see any need. As far as I can tell, we are the only ones doing an honest investigation. Providing records to you so you can use them in a PR effort to clear Heick and any others you are working with is gross. Your argument (like nearly all of your arguments) is a straw man, built to suggest our withholding is no different than yours (and Heick). We put a lot of documents into the public back in the day, but the records you are referring to came this year after the statute of limitations expired. And of course, I had no role at UltimateBet and did not benefit from the cheating.

Heick's documents (including info from the recordings) found their way into your blogs as early as 2009 when the release could have been used in a player lawsuit. Heick can put all this to rest by sitting for an interview in our film. I would think an innocent person would seek out honest efforts to reveal the truth.

I see: You feel free to withhold records while accusing me of withholding records I never had in the first place. Well, at least independent observers can see which one of us continues to be honest and forthright, and it's always good to get this stuff on the public record in any fashion. Meanwhile, pardon me while I go beat my head against a tree to see if that makes as much sense as what you write.

As for Heick, I can't imagine any reason why she wouldn't want to sit down and chat with someone that's accused her of orchestrating a blackmail plot.

[haleylh]

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT!!!

... but the records you are referring to came this year after the statute of limitations expired.

So you are shielding someone that gave you these records after having sat on them for five years to avoid criminal prosecution?? Wow. Thank you for admitting this! I suspected it all along!

Since these records aren't the ones that Makar dumped, it means you were given them by someone inside UB and you are now proactively protecting them!

My, oh, my, now the truth comes out. So all this is an orchestrated smear job done by someone in the ex-UB core, sent through someone looking out for themselves. It won't be hard to determine who, after all; once your bogus documentary comes out, we'll just look for the person that should have been named, but isn't. By "we'll", I mean the royal "we": me, myself, I and the general public.