Arc Fault Circuit breakers

[Sanlmar]

I had a kitchen remodeled.

I added a lot lighting. LED strip under cabinet lighting is spectacular.

I added additional outlets notably a quad outlet on a new island.

I haven’t paid a lot of attention to the project. Wife wanted it and its mostly an aesthetic deal so I let her run with it.

Now it’s almost complete and the electrical is an issue. The electrician installed code required Arc Fault breakers in the main service panel. They are the new generation of GFCI Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt. Arc Fault has a reputation for being too sensitive and a pain in the ass - I guess

Worst example:
I plug an iPhone charger (without the iPhone itself as a load) in the kitchen island outlet trips the Arc Fault in panel.

The sink garbage disposal insta fails too.

Electrician tells me - “just pass inspection and put the old breakers back in.” Arc Fault “is what it is”

Personally, I have a suspicion I have a shared neutral somewhere in the existing wiring somewhere in the house and this is somehow screwing shit up but I don’t know enough.

Anyone have any AFCI experience or thoughts?

This project is WAY over budget and I don’t want to pay T&M for some electrician who blames shit on existing

On a side note, I have no idea how people survive living without a kitchen during these projects especially if they have kids. I have been living in another place and we meet and eat over there. This project has gone on for 3 months. Lotta adds and changes by the wife. Like I said, I have stayed out of this. I don’t want to have to find a divorce attorney.

[Brittney Griner's Clit]

God punishing you for dub outlets not being enough for your kitchen table.

[LegallyNonBindingPosts]

I fear you're correct about the neutrals. F'ing nightmare to correct and $$$. GL

I would use this as an enlightment, expansion of understanding for your lovely wife.

There is a very high price in aggravation, headaches, upset stomach, and lost sleep in the quest for a more perfect house. Adding changes allows the contractors to feel justified working with the care and expertise of a Chevy line worker slipping beer cans in the doors of 1976 Vega's on a Monday. Dream House Syndrome. Only truly corrected with a horrible experience.

Plead ignorance, stay away, do nothing. Sit down and be honest. "Honey this was your idea and project. I will continue to observe from a distance."

Never will be heard "It'd be fun to get a jetted tub, or media room, etc."

Keep this in your back pocket "How much better do the meals prepared in new kitchen taste compared to old kitchen?"

[Sanlmar]

LegallyBinding,

How do you know about the neutrals?

Personal experience? You’re an electrician (I hope)?

I feel like I should be able to separate all the neutrals back in panel and ring out the circuits.

So what would that entail?

It’s a 2 man job. I’ll offer to be the 2nd guy. Use a Fox & Hound



* The main panel is packed around the perimeter with wires. They will all have to be separated & redone.

* I should be able to meter through the existing receptacles or lights.

* once I find 2 circuits with common neutrals in the field I guess the fun begins taking receptacles and fixtures down

Prolly pulling a new circuit and that could be a fucking pain in the ass ~ perhaps impossible unless I’m breaking sheetrock

How am I doing so far?

F'ing nightmare to correct and $$$. GL

Plead ignorance, stay away, do nothing. Sit down and be honest. "Honey this was your idea and project. I will continue to observe from a distance

I’d stay out but it is about the money. I saw a quote for $3000 to expand my panel. Like WTF is that gonna cure?

I come over one day and the general contractor is wearing a sweatshirt with “Jesus” printed on the back. I’m thinking this is brilliant marketing. I shoot the shit a little and the guy is “all in” with the Jesus program.

Adding changes allows the contractors to feel justified working with the care and expertise of a Chevy line worker slipping beer cans in the doors of 1976 Vega's on a Monday.

Love this line. However, I always saw adds & changes as a bonus program. The contractor is already there and extras are hard to negotiate. It’s premium $ for him with the promise of more work if he doesn’t fuck me on the base bid job.

Keep this in your back pocket "How much better do the meals prepared in new kitchen taste compared to old kitchen?"

I’ve known my wife for decades. Like too many to mention. I think she was more excited about this kitchen than the birth of my son. She has been in a great mood.

She watches these TLC renovation shows. The Fixer Upper show with this couple is her favorite.



On side note, I power read an autobiography those two did. I was a little concerned about the mind control they have over my wife. This guy Chip Gaines comes across as a loveable boob - that’s his act anyway.

Gaines is a hustler (the good kind) of the first order. His wife was working in her father’s Firestone tire store. Gaines fearlessly took shots at businesses and schemes. Really kind of inspirational if you have any energy yourself. That’s been beat out of me but golf clap.

Wife is always painting for instance. Never uses painters tape. Fucking always hitting the ceiling and trim. I notice the imperfections and used to say something. Let me prep - let me tape off. She gets mad. Now I just hire a guy to redo ceilings.

Keep this in your back pocket "How much better do the meals prepared in new kitchen taste compared to old kitchen?"

This is an interesting thing. There are two kinds of people in the world: Those that live to eat and those that eat to live. We are the latter. I don’t wake up thinking, “I need to marinate that steak”. Five minutes before dinner we run to the store.

However even before the kitchen was habitable, she would cook some great dishes at the other place. I discovered a lot of the inspiration came from Pinterest. No complaints.

I now see the “Hello Fresh” bags in the refrigerator. Not bad.

People are still a mystery to me and I’m still trying to figure out how you guys & she function so I take my clues where I can get them and grind the analysis.

[hongkonger]

Obv you can't live with electricity that doesn't work so you're going to have to fix it one way or another.

You said your wife was more excited about this than your kids. IMO the play here is to sit her down and explain that if she wants all this nice new stuff to work, you're going to have to fix it and that means more money and time. Tell her you are happy to do it for her so she has exactly what she wants. And all you want in return is a lot of sex on demand.

Good luck.

[limitles]

LegallyBinding,

How do you know about the neutrals?

Personal experience? You’re an electrician (I hope)?

I feel like I should be able to separate all the neutrals back in panel and ring out the circuits.

So what would that entail?

How am I doing so far?

Freudian slip obv

[hutmaster]

A buddy of mine is an electrician, he said in CA anyways Arc Fault breakers are only required in bedrooms. But even if not required he said there are only 2 possibilities, he installed a bad breaker or he fucked up the wiring. Most likely he said is fucked up wiring with shared neutrals as you already suspected. He said there is nothing in the nature of the Arc fault breaker that would cause the problem other than it’s a bad breaker.

[Brittney Griner's Clit]

I still think it's bull shit that the government requires your kitchen table to have power.

[LegallyNonBindingPosts]

Oh boy. I should of kept quiet.

You're smart. Wear eye protection always and clean leather gloves around the breaker panel. Only 1 hand in the panel at a time, other hand for test equip or by your side. Never on any metal. Use insulated tools or wrap 3M Scotch Super 88 elec tape around screwdriver shaft.

pic of panel with afci and std breakers. afci have blue test buttons and have both hot and neutral terminals, comes with a white pigtail wire that must be terminated at neutral bar. std breakers only have a termination for hot wire.



inspect for neutrals terminated at all afci. inspect for all pigtails terminated at neutral bar. any flaws are on elec con.

any afci without a neutral requires exactly 1 neutral removed from the neutral bar and terminated at afci. but which one?

if all neutrals are terminated on a afci and all pigtails go to bar then 2 possibilities, neutrals for separate devices are not terminated on correct afci or in a junction box with several hots and neutrals passing thru the neutrals could be wire nutted together or neutrals got paired with wrong hot.

On std wiring the neutrals are all the same electrically. If every receptacle, light, oven, disposer had a white wire of correct size, alls good. with afci that commonality has to be ended.

if you have a DMM, a long piece of wire and a wirenut this will work. turn off afci. remove neutral from device that causes tripping. wirenut neutral and loose wire together. walk loose wire to breaker panel. set DMM to ohms and 1 lead to wire then test neutrals until you find continuity. do not touch anything hot or meter fries. if the neutral lands anywhere besides the afci for the device move that neutral.

looking at the tracer you displayed. in pic its hooked up to trace the hot. turn off afci breaker for a string of receptacles that don't trip and disconnect the neutral and hot. hookup tracer green lead to neutral, red lead to hot. test how close to receptacles the probe must be to sound off. hopefully it works.



try this. turn off breaker (B) for device that trips B and all other B's for devices physically close to tripping device. hookup tracer. probe for tone at device neutral. no tone = problem, that particular neutral goes who knows where. now it'd be nice to hookup the tone generator to that neutral on the device end, which means disconnecting the black and white wires from the disposer, lights etc. hookup tracer to wires at device. now you can search for the tone in the panel on one or more neutrals.

work safe

I truly feel sorry for you.

[Sanlmar]

It never occurred to me I might have defective breakers. Easy to buy another and swap. Not likely though.

I will turn off the main before I work so I can post more.

Legallybinding, so appreciate your input. Your feedback confirms my hunch. I’ll use the working tips in your procedure too.

Gotta idiot question. Have to ask though. Neutrals commoned in the field on unrelated circuits have nothing to do with this problem? Right?

If the AFCI circuit is found to be clean of shared neutrals and I happen to coincidentally find a shared neutral in the field (say, amongst bedrooms) that doesn’t matter?

Sounds stupid to you but I gotta ask

Bonus question:
Suppose I am a cheap ass E.C. Suppose I owe money to Vegas1369. I use a GFCI receptacle in a bathroom and common that circuit to another bathroom then maybe a receptacle on the deck. I saved on buying 2 additional GFCI receptacles!!!

Will the above in any way affect my new work if the new work is separate and isolated to its own AFCI?