You see it all the time on Facebook and other poker forums. Fish making claims that "online poker is rigged." Rarely ever does a big name professional poker player, especially one that makes what I assume is most of their income on Online Poker.
ChicagoJoey aka Joey Ingram calls out several individual accounts that he believes are all being ran by 1 person. That 1 person will sit multiple accounts all at the same cash table, and play against unsuspecting players.
Here is the video:
If it weren't for the fact that I know Joey is a relatively intelligent guy with a reputation of being king of the softball / letting people get off easy, this video would make me respect him only a little bit more than thespartan.
But he deserves better than that.
I wish he'd provide some more proof, math, or anything really.
Something isn't right with the WPN network.
They have always shrugged off collusion reports like no big deal. I've reported plenty back in the day and read numerous people reporting the same peoplem, yet they make excuses or dodge the subject.
I'm not sure if they have ever closed any accounts for collusion in the past. If they have they certainly haven't refunded people properly because I never got a dime, nor do I know people who have while on Bovada/Ignition I've received refunds on several occasions.
This is the only bigger network that I know of that don't provide mucked hands at showdown in the hand history. For online integrity purposes this is something that should always be done and why all the other sites do this.
A lot of people claim bots and others suspect internal house accounts are going on with this network to not want to show hole cards at showdown. It would make sense if they do have internal cheating go on because less collusion reports can be provided. Players can still put together educated conclusions based on what certain players are doing in games but providing actual hands isn't easy to do as we don't get to see them at showdown that often.
You could argue that WPN is taking so much of a hit with these million dollar guarantee tournaments while giving away a bunch of tickets and providing the best rakeback/perks in the industry that it's hard to understand why they can continue to do this?
The network has made claims it's expenses they are willing to take on to grow the network but come on seriously how much can you really give away? If their was some internal cheating going on to offset all of what they are giving away then it would make sense that they can afford to do so.
So many questions about things that the network continues to dodge or give terrible responses for.
A rep over on 2+2 his first reply in a thread about plo bots wasn't to defend the site as much as target a guy who has stated numerous times he don't play anymore on there. Here is what the reps response is:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...takes-1695993/
That is the thread and the actual post is #57 : https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...9&postcount=57
People ripped on him hard for that as they should because it's irrelevant and somewhat dodging the topic with a generic response.
WPN still pays for a sponsored thread and Mason will continue to take their money I'm sure unless shit really hits the fan.
Good on Joey for calling them out and hopefully it will lead to more investigating because as I said their entire business model if doing things 100% honestly doesn't add up to being profitable yet they've been able to continue with the same strategy for years now.
Was kind of a pain to dig through the thread an find WinningTDs response so here it is,
Seems to be the only response WinningTD has made in thread.
Quite a lot of accusations were made, very little if any evidence was provided. We give a great deal of trust to the accusations because Joey is a respected member of the community. I think however if your going to make accusations of "superuser" and name accounts that are colluding/same person, you need a high level of evidence/reason/data something to provide the community.
There are huge differences in botting, superusers and collusion. Bots very well could be a distant 3rd importance to the other two, here are my thoughts.
It's important that we at least ASK a few questions and think about our reasons for how we answer these questions.
These are important questions - and because I ask them does not mean I take a stance any particular way, I only think these are important discussions.
1) Are Bots good for, or at least helpful post black Friday online poker?
The line between free range human play, and automation has grown smaller every year consistently. Most winning players are using automation of some sort to some degree. We can debate to what extent automation is "in control" of decision making, but let's not pretend it's fair for fun players that have never heard of HM/PokerTracker, solvers, etc..
2) Are bots simply high tech prop players that take little from the player pool?
are they killing the games in the sense of playing so well that avg players are getting destroyed by them? I am aware that a few years ago the biggest winners on PokerStars low/mid stakes 6max games were bots however was that due to the volume of play or the winrate?
I was disappointed in the Joey video.
I was hoping he would present some numbers, hand histories, or at least SOMETHING proving his assertions.
Oddly, he called out certain screen names, yet didn't provide even one hand history, despite claiming to have spent countless hours studying and observing these players.
Huh?
I'm not saying that Joey is wrong. I trust his feel of the situation more than I trust the shady elements behind ACR, but let's not jump too much on the bandwagon until we sort this out further.
I will discuss this more on radio on Wednesday. Hopefully Joey will release more by then.
https://twitter.com/twt/status/960278221198520320
As johnnysprinkles said above, Joey is making so many different accusations that it's a bit tough to take them all seriously, as they are all separate.
Superusing, colluding, and botting don't necessarily go together. Collusion and botting can (because those are indicative of lax security, plus bots can collude), but superusing is entirely different. A superuser does not need to collude or use bots, as he already has a tremendous advantage.
Yes, it's possible all three are happening, but honestly Joey's claims about the colluding and botting sound more credible than his claims of superusing.
We're going to need to see some evidence before concluding much more.
To answer johnnysprinkles' other question, YES, botting is cheating, and is far worse than using HUDs. And yes, at least at low-mid stakes, bots are big winners, especially if they are sharing hole card information with one another. Even "fair playing" bots will typically crush low and mid stakes, due to volume, a tough-to-exploit style, and lack of fatigue/emotion/human error.
I should also point out that bots have long been a problem on the smaller and mid-sized networks, dating back many years.
I proved back in 2009 that there were certain bots routinely in the limit holdem games on Bodog, but nothing was done. In fact, when I took countermeasures by tricking one of the bots into playing more than 80 consecutive hands against me where I got the button every time, the bot operator complained and Bodog threatened to ban me if I did it again. I spoke to one of the higher managers there, who basically told me that I had "no proof" it was a bot (lol), and that I had no right to exploit that glitch no matter who the opponent was. I asked him how any high volume, winning player could ever let another regular winner (me) take the button against him 80 consecutive times, and he didn't have an answer for that. Back in those days, everyone had screen names, so there wasn't even the explanation that he didn't realize he was playing someone competent. I was a high volume limit holdem regular there and everyone on the site knew I was one of the top winners there.
full disclosure, I use a HUD...Originally Posted by johnysprinkles
theres a huge difference between me playing with a HUD and me designing a bot to play exactly like I do...
1. the bot will always play an A game regardless of whether it's an hour or 11 hours into a session...a human, no matter how well trained in playing long sessions, will show slippage in play from hour 1 to 11...
2. bot will always play perfect frequencies in every spot...
3. bot will never tilt...
probably missing some, but there's at least a few reasons how they are totally different...
This is actually interesting. No clue about Chicago Joey but that sounds like sore losing to me so I wasn't paying attention to the thread.
This video goes into specifics stuff and it is obvious as fuck there is cheating.
I mean just think if you were able to sit 4 guys beside each other in a tournament. So each to pass chips to guys about to bust out. Then you have other standard cheating stuff that would work in a cash game. In a tournament it is even worse because there is the option to dump chips from high stack to low stack. That basically multiplies the damage that can be done. I don't know how to do any equations but if a guy with 1/10th the stack of some other player receives 3/10 and now has 4x his original stack, it is a huge positive. Trading low value chips into high value chips. lol tourneys.
If you're ever writing poker room software make sure you randomize people new to tourneys across all tables. This should probably be done live but if online it is just waiting for lolz.
Last edited by donkdowndonedied; 02-14-2018 at 11:55 AM.
Been keeping up with all the threads on 2+2.. On a side note pfa podcaste with joey was mentioned..
I know that regs ALWAYS threaten to withdraw there B.R. or rake less and they NEVER follow through.
I really think this time its diffrent.. They are really getting hit seriously and its constant and getting worse by well known posters and others whom seem very credible and who seem that there following through on there threats..
To this point there has been nothing from w.p.n
On this.. They dont even reply to (at the very least) fix the dam mucked cards issue.
You think they would at this fucken point (at the very least) but there are precariously refusing to do so through there silence and previous posts. ??? . thats just way too wierd and "shiesty"(dirty)..
It will get worse unless they do something transformative and drastic..
I really just think there happy chugging along with there degens, bots and in house super users and hope this will pass.
Last edited by thesparten; 02-11-2018 at 05:08 PM.
Ive been researching all the excuses and claims about the mucked card situation on 2+2.
So many DIFFRENT excuses. Its self evident they dont want to do it for some insidious reason..
Phil could post TOMORROW that he is going to spend $1,000,000 on security to fight bots and collusion it wouldnt make a diffrence, its all talk to keep people playing.
IF he "JUST" fixed the mucked cards it would reestablish trust instantaneously. He would be heralded. A ton of deposits would come in. The withdrawal,s would stop. People will play more. Id even play some hands to check it out..BUT HE WONT!!!!! (Things that make you go hmmm?)
Last edited by thesparten; 02-12-2018 at 07:14 PM.
I see no evidence that there is mass WD's or people stopped playing since these threads started. I have pointed out from the beginning that 9/10 people posting about how shady the network is, are losing/rec players that love a good cheating scandal to mask their failures. I do not doubt there are issues, I am sure there are bots at the lower micro stakes. there are bots on every site!
WPN has handled the issue abysmally. no doubt.
Everyone is bitching about the 44bars account and how is cheating, yet the high stakes NL/PLO players who are confirmed real, love his action and have gone to the forums to post and say "no issues". but those posts get ignored because it's just not as fun as a good ole scandal!
I have heard account names come from Joey's mouth that are 100% real non bot accounts. He even made a big deal of an account having an "abnormal" WR at HU SNG's, problem is that account was playing HUPLO8 which is not comparable to standard winrates found at NL or PLO. If Joey saw my winrates/streaks at HUFL SNG's he would label me a cheater as well.
I will summarize his issue/blatant ignorance of eastern europeans/Belarussians this way, they are the best/winningest poker players for a reason, and it's not cheating.. They are just that fucking much better than the rest of the world.. in some formats it's the Germans in MOST it's Russia/Belarus..
Cheating been going on forever.........I was cheated on Planet Poker.........but they had the sense to catch the cheat who broke the code and send all hands you played against him/her (never was told who it was) and the money was added to my account and all other players who lost.....1,220 I believe was the number I was in 38 hands against the dude or dudet.......and lost 25 of them ...he / she was clever enough to lose as well as win....
Queenstreet
Jeff Boski posted a live Youtube video of himself going deep in a $21 tourney. When someone asked about ACR cheating, around 8 mins in, he deleted it ("where my mods at?")
More blatant cheating/collusion. Tournament started with 8 players, 6 players went all in on the first hand of the tournament, 5 get eliminated which puts the remaining 3 players ITM therefore forcing late registrations to close early (2nd hand of the tournament LOL). $66 buyin and a min cash for $1.2k...(PS, the guy that got 3rd is 100% not a bot or in on this collusion).
I saw this and thought it was kind of funny because it's at a huge disadvantage for the site offering this mtt in the first place if they aren't aware of the traffic they will have at the time. They could force more people to get in at the start of it in order for it to run in the first place, not have this big of a GTD, or not run this MTT at all so if people get them that way then so be it. A big thing with these WPN MTTs is because late registration is so long people want to wait a few levels to hop in even if it's just 30 minutes into it so the fields can start off very small.More blatant cheating/collusion. Tournament started with 8 players, 6 players went all in on the first hand of the tournament, 5 get eliminated which puts the remaining 3 players ITM therefore forcing late registrations to close early (2nd hand of the tournament LOL). $66 buyin and a min cash for $1.2k...(PS, the guy that got 3rd is 100% not a bot or in on this collusion).
If people were talking in chat about going all in next hand it's collusion for sure but it's probably one of those things where people saw a few guys going all in and decided to join the party without discussing anything knowing what is going on is +EV for them with any two cards given the potential ROI.
Even if it were 7 in house bots vs one regular user because for some reason they thought it would overlay it would be a terrible spot for the site to run this at all giving that guy a chance to cash versus cancelling if they don't get at least like 12 players.
Wpn rep started a thread a couple days ago pretty much reiterating that the players(community) have to police themselves and bring it to there attention.
The way the rep proposed it was that wpn was doing the "right thing" by taking players seriously and then offering lip service to increased "in house" (secret) security..
Absolutly no mention of mucked cards or tournament late reg loophole..
How long can i urinate on your face before u ask me stop is the wpn motto.. There so fucken crooked.
So there were 8 people registered in a $60+6 with a $6000 guarantee, six of whom were all the same guy?More blatant cheating/collusion. Tournament started with 8 players, 6 players went all in on the first hand of the tournament, 5 get eliminated which puts the remaining 3 players ITM therefore forcing late registrations to close early (2nd hand of the tournament LOL). $66 buyin and a min cash for $1.2k...(PS, the guy that got 3rd is 100% not a bot or in on this collusion).
How did they essentially get 3 people registering for this?
I understand these cheaters dumped so they could force an end to late reg, but still... how can this get such poor registration numbers?
Any word regarding what happened to the 6 chip dumpers after this was discovered?
So there were 8 people registered in a $60+6 with a $6000 guarantee, six of whom were all the same guy?More blatant cheating/collusion. Tournament started with 8 players, 6 players went all in on the first hand of the tournament, 5 get eliminated which puts the remaining 3 players ITM therefore forcing late registrations to close early (2nd hand of the tournament LOL). $66 buyin and a min cash for $1.2k...(PS, the guy that got 3rd is 100% not a bot or in on this collusion).
How did they essentially get 3 people registering for this?
I understand these cheaters dumped so they could force an end to late reg, but still... how can this get such poor registration numbers?
Any word regarding what happened to the 6 chip dumpers after this was discovered?
I've seen this attempted multiple times. Pretty sure tons of regs know this can happen. I'm not going to look up the stats of each guy but the chances of this being all one guy is low.
I've seen this attempted countless times but never work. Someone always buys in as the cards run out or not enough people call when I've seen it. In the lower buy ins some dude will always blow up chat because he open shipped first hand and no one called. I really think this is a chain reaction type thing with regs when this chance presents itself for like a 20 percent chance to turn 60 bucks into 3K.
Plus if this is a cheating ring, it's the Robin Hood of cheating rings. Imagine if u just fold as everyone calls and you instantly 20x your buy in with a chance for more.
More blatant cheating/collusion. Tournament started with 8 players, 6 players went all in on the first hand of the tournament, 5 get eliminated which puts the remaining 3 players ITM therefore forcing late registrations to close early (2nd hand of the tournament LOL). $66 buyin and a min cash for $1.2k...(PS, the guy that got 3rd is 100% not a bot or in on this collusion).
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