Holy crap....tent city near Angel Stadium

[Dan Druff]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Children from very poor families qualify for food stamps.

Kids are not selling their bodies for sex so the family can eat.

No you don't know what you're talking about. i didn't throw up an opinion but facts based on studies. I said nothing about kids selling their bodies but can you imagine living day to day on the street and what abuses real or perceived that would bring?
The working poor are included. A child brought up in these conditions will bear the consequences.

Minimum wage in America means over half of your income goes to housing, if you are in the right area. Even still, what monies are left for proper health costs or unforeseen problems?
There are studies that point to 45% of tent occupiers are still employed.
And back to the beginning, I said the financial crisis was a player in the homeless situation but I also said even if it was not the main contributor you still have a big problem on your hands.

Turning people onto the street, as Reagon famously did closing mental hospitals solves no problem just moves it, out into the street. Your country would rather look away than deal with a problem every society has. You don't have the money for this??????????????????
You don't have the will for this

How can you host a website when you are ignorant of everyday information?

Are you homeless, les?

Why are you freaking out about this particular topic?

I actually do believe there needs to be mental health reform.

You are wrong, however, about 45% of the homeless being working poor. Simply not true. And if you remove the voluntary homeless (people who live in their car to save money, like that software engineer murdered in Las Vegas in late 2015), the percentage of "working homeless" drops even lower.

You are writing a bunch of nonsense learned from warped statistics found on left-wing websites.

I lived in southern California for most of my life, including in areas with homeless problems.

You picture a McDonald's worker dutifully performing her job, and then returning to her tent because she can't afford a place to live.

You picture children literally starving because their family cannot afford food.

These are not realities in the United States. There is a substantial welfare program which includes food stamps. There is Section 8 housing. You need to look these things up on non-biased sites.

Homeless people are mostly where they are due to mental illness or alcohol/substance abuse. That's not to say they shouldn't be cared for in some way, but it's highly inaccurate to state that many homeless are simply working people left behind by society.

The people who lost their homes in 2008 are not homeless today because of a decade-old foreclosure. The real estate crash of 2008 wiped out life savings and greatly harmed much of the lower-middle, middle, and upper-middle classes at the time, but it did not cause poverty or homelessness.

In fact, the poor actually gained from the real estate crash, as it caused rents to plummet in many areas.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

[ErickAA]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Children from very poor families qualify for food stamps.

Kids are not selling their bodies for sex so the family can eat.

No you don't know what you're talking about. i didn't throw up an opinion but facts based on studies. I said nothing about kids selling their bodies but can you imagine living day to day on the street and what abuses real or perceived that would bring?
The working poor are included. A child brought up in these conditions will bear the consequences.

Minimum wage in America means over half of your income goes to housing, if you are in the right area. Even still, what monies are left for proper health costs or unforeseen problems?
There are studies that point to 45% of tent occupiers are still employed.
And back to the beginning, I said the financial crisis was a player in the homeless situation but I also said even if it was not the main contributor you still have a big problem on your hands.

Turning people onto the street, as Reagon famously did closing mental hospitals solves no problem just moves it, out into the street. Your country would rather look away than deal with a problem every society has. You don't have the money for this??????????????????
You don't have the will for this????????????

How can you host a website when you are ignorant of everyday information?

Also, homelessness does not mean you are in a tent. It describes families that must rely on relatives for shelter or living in weekly rental facilities, i.e. motels.

sah_24
look it up bitch

Bro. I have lived here my whole life. There is literally a tent city on the street I live on. None of these people are employed. Maybe some of your argument is correct, but when you say shit like this it is hard to take you seriously at all.

[limitles]

No you don't know what you're talking about. i didn't throw up an opinion but facts based on studies. I said nothing about kids selling their bodies but can you imagine living day to day on the street and what abuses real or perceived that would bring?
The working poor are included. A child brought up in these conditions will bear the consequences.

Minimum wage in America means over half of your income goes to housing, if you are in the right area. Even still, what monies are left for proper health costs or unforeseen problems?
There are studies that point to 45% of tent occupiers are still employed.
And back to the beginning, I said the financial crisis was a player in the homeless situation but I also said even if it was not the main contributor you still have a big problem on your hands.

Turning people onto the street, as Reagon famously did closing mental hospitals solves no problem just moves it, out into the street. Your country would rather look away than deal with a problem every society has. You don't have the money for this??????????????????
You don't have the will for this

How can you host a website when you are ignorant of everyday information?

Are you homeless, les?

Why are you freaking out about this particular topic?

I actually do believe there needs to be mental health reform.

You are wrong, however, about 45% of the homeless being working poor. Simply not true. And if you remove the voluntary homeless (people who live in their car to save money, like that software engineer murdered in Las Vegas in late 2015), the percentage of "working homeless" drops even lower.

You are writing a bunch of nonsense learned from warped statistics found on left-wing websites.

I lived in southern California for most of my life, including in areas with homeless problems.

You picture a McDonald's worker dutifully performing her job, and then returning to her tent because she can't afford a place to live.

You picture children literally starving because their family cannot afford food.

These are not realities in the United States. There is a substantial welfare program which includes food stamps. There is Section 8 housing. You need to look these things up on non-biased sites.

Homeless people are mostly where they are due to mental illness or alcohol/substance abuse. That's not to say they shouldn't be cared for in some way, but it's highly inaccurate to state that many homeless are simply working people left behind by society.

The people who lost their homes in 2008 are not homeless today because of a decade-old foreclosure. The real estate crash of 2008 wiped out life savings and greatly harmed much of the lower-middle, middle, and upper-middle classes at the time, but it did not cause poverty or homelessness.

In fact, the poor actually gained from the real estate crash, as it caused rents to plummet in many areas.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

I may have misquoted. It might have been up to 40ish percent.
Very hard to get exact figures as the target is transient, so there are different numbers but the point is people who work every day of the year at the federal minimum wage levels are living in poverty as defined by the same government

The rest of your post is so full of unbelievable bullshit it will take a while to dismantle

I think you are part idiot. I will address all the crap you just laid out however


people who work every day of the year at the federal minimum wage levels are living in poverty as defined by the same government

does this hit home for anyone?
If you pay 50% of your earning for rent you are living in poverty. The numbers are apparently higher than 50% for some workers.
Never mind you or a family member becomes sick and has no social healthcare program.

I wil address all the little scenarios you attributed to me, i.e. McDonalds workers, blah blah blah....you realize you made all that shit up as a defence but I said none of it? strange

"In June 2016, the IMF warned the United States that its high poverty rate needs to be tackled urgently by raising the minimum wage and offering paid maternity leave to women to encourage them to enter the labor force.^[21] In December 2017, the United Nations special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, Philip Alston, undertook a two week investigation on the effects of systemic poverty in the United States, and sharply condemned "private wealth and public squalor".^[22]"

[Daly]

What should the minimum wage be?

Should it be high enough that an adult can have a nice place by themselves and in the process shut out teenagers and people looking for part time work?

Should it be low enough so that it makes teenagers and other low skilled entry level workforce employees affordable enough to make some money and learn skillsbutnot afford to live on their own?

I've thought for some time there should be two minimums.

[limitles]

What should the minimum wage be?

Should it be high enough that an adult can have a nice place by themselves and in the process shut out teenagers and people looking for part time work?

Should it be low enough so that it makes teenagers and other low skilled entry level workforce employees affordable enough to make some money and learn skillsbutnot afford to live on their own?

I've thought for some time there should be two minimums.

again, you live in the richest country on the planet. you decide what's best

[ErickAA]

I am not sure just raising the minimum wage will solve anything, because this just encourages business owners to hire less people, which you can do now due to the astronomical increases we are constantly making in automation and efficiency.

We have to figure out a way to redistribute resources, including giving a lot more resources to people that frankly cant earn it themselves.

When Bezos is worth $100B and there is tens of thousands of people living in tents in the same state he lives in, we have a problem.

[sah_24]

Ya the problem is called lazy bums and when you reward lazy bums ... big surprise you get more of them. #rocketscience

Feel free to redistribute your wealth all you would like, just don't go trying to redistribute mine ...

[Dan Druff]

limitles doesn't live in the US, so he relies upon biased websites to paint a picture in his mind of life in this country. Unfortunately, that picture is very inaccurate, and he keeps spinning in every direction to continue to defend his claims.

The federal poverty level does not equate to homelessness. Here is a list of income requirements for the Federal Poverty Level: https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/...rty-level-FPL/

Notice that a family of 6 is considered to be living in poverty if they make $33k per year!

The federal poverty level exists simply to delineate the point in which people qualify for extra government benefits due to being poor. This includes healthcare subsidies, food stamps, Section 8 housing, welfare payments, etc. Often you can be substantially above the federal poverty line and still receive benefits. For example, you get subsidized healthcare even if your income is 4x as much as the federal poverty level!

The common complaint about America is not that it mistreats its very poor -- it's that it mistreats its lower-middle-class.

Many lower-middle-class people complain that, despite holding full time jobs and generally living a responsible life, they are not eligible for government assistance due to being "not poor enough", while the lower classes get all the freebies.

Indeed, that was one of the issues with healthcare which led to Obamacare's creation. The very poor qualified for free healthcare, and the middle class and above could afford their own private healthcare, but the lower-middle-class often couldn't afford it AND didn't qualify for anything free or discounted.

So back to homelessness.

The typical homeless person will have a life and history which is nothing short of disaster. It will almost always involve mental illness, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, or a combination of these.

There are not full-time workers who are at the federal poverty level. These are not responsible people who just can't keep up with the financial demands of American life. These tend to be people who are not even in the condition to hold a steady job, due to either mental illness or brain/body damage from drugs and alcohol. In most cases, they have also burned bridges with family and friends, and were basically left to rot on their own.

We have someone in our own community who was homeless for awhile: Neverheeb

He's a good example, though honestly he's in much better shape than the typical homeless person, even when he was at his worst.

While I've always liked Neverheeb and have a soft spot for him, there's no denying that he has battled mental illness demons, as well as drug addiction. He has two parents that love him (and who apparently are at least upper-middle-class), but he exasperated them repeatedly with his behavior, and at some points they finally had to just give up. Apparently he's back with his mom, was given another chance, and seems to be doing okay for the moment. I really hope he turns it around and finally lives a normal life.

It does sadden me that there's not a better mental health system in this country to take care of people like Neverheeb. Not all mentally ill people have loving and financially stable parents willing to take them in and guide them to another chance in life. However, if you want to complain about America's homeless issue, you need to look at our mental health system, rather than complain about the minimum wage and housing costs. It's really not about that.

[Dan Druff]

Also, you need to be careful when awarding benefits to the "poor", because abuse inevitably occurs.

If the benefits one reaps for not working comes close to the pay level of holding a minimum wage job, most people will simply choose not to work, or to work part-time under-the-table.

I personally know some people who do this.

They claim to have zero income, collect all of the benefits they possibly can due to being a bottom-income American, and then take cash jobs under-the-table.

These people are by no means wealthy, but in some cases they're actually doing better than lower-middle-class people working full time jobs and receiving no benefits.

BTW, I have always tried to help out friends and friendly acquaintances who are struggling financially. I have helped them obtain unemployment benefits, fight unscrupulous landlords, resolve customer service issues with banks, utilities, or other companies which returned much-needed money to them, and fight workplace violations. I've done this for many people, and just because I'm good at this sort of thing and want to help them out.

I actually have a lot of visibility into the real lives of people at all different class levels, due to friendships I've made over the years with people who are rich, middle-class, and poor.

I can tell you lots of stories I've personally witnessed (or been party to assisting) where poor people legitimately get shafted by society, and also lots of stories of lazy people who just want to hustle benefits and do the very minimum. The poor as a whole are neither oppressed salt-of-the-earth angels nor good-for-nothing bums who want to live on hardworking people's dime. It's actually a fascinating and sometimes depressing spectrum of circumstances.

Maybe I'll write more about it someday.

[BCR]

No you don't know what you're talking about. i didn't throw up an opinion but facts based on studies. I said nothing about kids selling their bodies but can you imagine living day to day on the street and what abuses real or perceived that would bring?
The working poor are included. A child brought up in these conditions will bear the consequences.

Minimum wage in America means over half of your income goes to housing, if you are in the right area. Even still, what monies are left for proper health costs or unforeseen problems?
There are studies that point to 45% of tent occupiers are still employed.
And back to the beginning, I said the financial crisis was a player in the homeless situation but I also said even if it was not the main contributor you still have a big problem on your hands.

Turning people onto the street, as Reagon famously did closing mental hospitals solves no problem just moves it, out into the street. Your country would rather look away than deal with a problem every society has. You don't have the money for this??????????????????
You don't have the will for this

How can you host a website when you are ignorant of everyday information?

Are you homeless, les?

Why are you freaking out about this particular topic?

I actually do believe there needs to be mental health reform.

You are wrong, however, about 45% of the homeless being working poor. Simply not true. And if you remove the voluntary homeless (people who live in their car to save money, like that software engineer murdered in Las Vegas in late 2015), the percentage of "working homeless" drops even lower.

You are writing a bunch of nonsense learned from warped statistics found on left-wing websites.

I lived in southern California for most of my life, including in areas with homeless problems.

You picture a McDonald's worker dutifully performing her job, and then returning to her tent because she can't afford a place to live.

You picture children literally starving because their family cannot afford food.

These are not realities in the United States. There is a substantial welfare program which includes food stamps. There is Section 8 housing. You need to look these things up on non-biased sites.

Homeless people are mostly where they are due to mental illness or alcohol/substance abuse. That's not to say they shouldn't be cared for in some way, but it's highly inaccurate to state that many homeless are simply working people left behind by society.

The people who lost their homes in 2008 are not homeless today because of a decade-old foreclosure. The real estate crash of 2008 wiped out life savings and greatly harmed much of the lower-middle, middle, and upper-middle classes at the time, but it did not cause poverty or homelessness.

In fact, the poor actually gained from the real estate crash, as it caused rents to plummet in many areas.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Where are these many areas? Just curious.

I have seen the exact opposite everywhere. Credit became harder to obtain, which turned the lower middle class from homeowners to renters, and this increased rents across the board as the demand for rentals increased with fewer eligible homeowners. I can’t think of a single economic reason why a housing crash would help the truly poor.

I could see a few isolated spots where some newly married middle class couple may be able to rent a home that someone swooped in and bought from the bank after a foreclosure, but that doesn’t speak to the poor. I’ve seen rents rise quite fast and uniformly in any area that I’ve looked into.

I’m curious where these areas are where the crash helped the poor and working poor.

[MumblesBadly]

Also, you need to be careful when awarding benefits to the "poor", because abuse inevitably occurs.

If the benefits one reaps for not working comes close to the pay level of holding a minimum wage job, most people will simply choose not to work, or to work part-time under-the-table.

I personally know some people who do this.

They claim to have zero income, collect all of the benefits they possibly can due to being a bottom-income American, and then take cash jobs under-the-table.

These people are by no means wealthy, but in some cases they're actually doing better than lower-middle-class people working full time jobs and receiving no benefits.

BTW, I have always tried to help out friends and friendly acquaintances who are struggling financially. I have helped them obtain unemployment benefits, fight unscrupulous landlords, resolve customer service issues with banks, utilities, or other companies which returned much-needed money to them, and fight workplace violations. I've done this for many people, and just because I'm good at this sort of thing and want to help them out.

I actually have a lot of visibility into the real lives of people at all different class levels, due to friendships I've made over the years with people who are rich, middle-class, and poor.

I can tell you lots of stories I've personally witnessed (or been party to assisting) where poor people legitimately get shafted by society, and also lots of stories of lazy people who just want to hustle benefits and do the very minimum. The poor as a whole are neither oppressed salt-of-the-earth angels nor good-for-nothing bums who want to live on hardworking people's dime. It's actually a fascinating and sometimes depressing spectrum of circumstances.

Maybe I'll write more about it someday.

In the months before the 2016 general election, I was debating with someone on FB who was planning to vote Republican and was bitching about how the welfare system was wasteful because of all of the cheaters. I challenged him on that point of fact, but mentioned that the truly wastefull program due to fraud was the Social Security disability program, on which there is solid evidence of a lot of fraud but not nearly enough investigators to properly investigate and reduce the incidence of fraud. This guy agreed, and even offered up that he had friend who was actually scamming Social Security for disability income.

Apparently, this friend was perfectly fit to have a job, in fact had one that paid cash, but also collected full SS disability pay on some previous injury that he had since healed from. I asked the guy why he didn't do his civic duty and report this fraudster to the government, you know, to help reduce the government waste he was complaining about. He said that he didn't have the heart to do so even though he knew the guy was 100% scamming the government, yet at the same time bitched about how *other* people were scamming to collect "welfare".

[Dan Druff]

Are you homeless, les?

Why are you freaking out about this particular topic?

I actually do believe there needs to be mental health reform.

You are wrong, however, about 45% of the homeless being working poor. Simply not true. And if you remove the voluntary homeless (people who live in their car to save money, like that software engineer murdered in Las Vegas in late 2015), the percentage of "working homeless" drops even lower.

You are writing a bunch of nonsense learned from warped statistics found on left-wing websites.

I lived in southern California for most of my life, including in areas with homeless problems.

You picture a McDonald's worker dutifully performing her job, and then returning to her tent because she can't afford a place to live.

You picture children literally starving because their family cannot afford food.

These are not realities in the United States. There is a substantial welfare program which includes food stamps. There is Section 8 housing. You need to look these things up on non-biased sites.

Homeless people are mostly where they are due to mental illness or alcohol/substance abuse. That's not to say they shouldn't be cared for in some way, but it's highly inaccurate to state that many homeless are simply working people left behind by society.

The people who lost their homes in 2008 are not homeless today because of a decade-old foreclosure. The real estate crash of 2008 wiped out life savings and greatly harmed much of the lower-middle, middle, and upper-middle classes at the time, but it did not cause poverty or homelessness.

In fact, the poor actually gained from the real estate crash, as it caused rents to plummet in many areas.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Where are these many areas? Just curious.

I have seen the exact opposite everywhere. Credit became harder to obtain, which turned the lower middle class from homeowners to renters, and this increased rents across the board as the demand for rentals increased with fewer eligible homeowners. I can’t think of a single economic reason why a housing crash would help the truly poor.

I could see a few isolated spots where some newly married middle class couple may be able to rent a home that someone swooped in and bought from the bank after a foreclosure, but that doesn’t speak to the poor. I’ve seen rents rise quite fast and uniformly in any area that I’ve looked into.

I’m curious where these areas are where the crash helped the poor and working poor.

I personally experienced a massive reduction of rent in Las Vegas during those years, and that was one of the hardest-hit markets by the crash.

In fact, I got into a battle with my large complex's management, as they wanted to renew my lease at the same rate I paid the prior year, which was hundreds of dollars higher to the then-current market rate for the identical unit.

Basically I played chicken with them and said, "I'm a good tenant who always pays his rent on time and never causes problems. I will not sign a lease at above-market rent. Either lower my rent to what you are charging new tenants, or I will leave."

They sat on it for about a week, then finally backed down.

The economic reason for this?

The crash was so tough on our economy that basically everything became depressed. Additionally, rents often mimic the housing market in general. When housing prices are low, more people can afford to buy, so therefore the remaining renters either don't exist in a great enough number OR cannot afford the high rents. When housing prices are high, the reverse occurs.

While the housing crash did force some homeowners back to being renters, the depressed prices also allowed people to buy when they either couldn't afford it before, or were afraid to jump in with a loan they couldn't afford.

There are probably some local markets where this didn't occur, but I observed rents falling during that period, at least in California and Nevada.

[BCR]

Where are these many areas? Just curious.

I have seen the exact opposite everywhere. Credit became harder to obtain, which turned the lower middle class from homeowners to renters, and this increased rents across the board as the demand for rentals increased with fewer eligible homeowners. I can’t think of a single economic reason why a housing crash would help the truly poor.

I could see a few isolated spots where some newly married middle class couple may be able to rent a home that someone swooped in and bought from the bank after a foreclosure, but that doesn’t speak to the poor. I’ve seen rents rise quite fast and uniformly in any area that I’ve looked into.

I’m curious where these areas are where the crash helped the poor and working poor.

I personally experienced a massive reduction of rent in Las Vegas during those years, and that was one of the hardest-hit markets by the crash.

In fact, I got into a battle with my large complex's management, as they wanted to renew my lease at the same rate I paid the prior year, which was hundreds of dollars higher to the then-current market rate for the identical unit.

Basically I played chicken with them and said, "I'm a good tenant who always pays his rent on time and never causes problems. I will not sign a lease at above-market rent. Either lower my rent to what you are charging new tenants, or I will leave."

They sat on it for about a week, then finally backed down.

The economic reason for this?

The crash was so tough on our economy that basically everything became depressed. Additionally, rents often mimic the housing market in general. When housing prices are low, more people can afford to buy, so therefore the remaining renters either don't exist in a great enough number OR cannot afford the high rents. When housing prices are high, the reverse occurs.

While the housing crash did force some homeowners back to being renters, the depressed prices also allowed people to buy when they either couldn't afford it before, or were afraid to jump in with a loan they couldn't afford.

There are probably some local markets where this didn't occur, but I observed rents falling during that period, at least in California and Nevada.

I wrote a long post with graphs showing rents holding stable and then rising during the crash years, but somehow lost it on the auto-restore. I can’t speak to California as it’s a uniquely strange and expensive market. Nevada was a clear case of overbuilding coupled with an undiversified economy heavily reliant on construction, but those are the outliers. I’ll repost the graphs and numbers tomorrow, but in general, rents rose across the board following the crash for most. We’re now at historic highs because of the booming economy coupled with the increased demand.

[FPS_Russia]

They want their wars and foreign aid packages, they want corporate subsidies, they want their tax cuts and tax loopholes for the rich but everyone else needs to quit being bums and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

I think things are going to get much much worse once Trump's tax plan kicks in, the corporations and rich have just left the middle and lower class holding the bag on this $20 trillion dollar debt. If you don't have their money they'll sell your fucking house, it's gonna get bad.

This is why I've turned so hard against third world immigration. All you PC libs need go walk thru a low income black neighborhood and then think about what it'd be like to live there.


And guess what motherfuckers, the corporations have just taken control of the entire internet. You really don't think they plan on censoring content, you really think it was just a coincidence that they can legally bypass freedom of speech. You really think they'll allow you to network and vote their puppets out of power when they can legally prevent it. It's already clear they plan on "protecting us from fake news", this shit is so Orwellian.

Well here's the lady from the FCC and the first thing she states is the game plan over the long haul.. I don't think the dems will overturn the decision, it's political theater so you don't realize you've been totally sold out.

We're just getting raped by these corporations and billionaires, wow.

[sah_24]

The internet just literally prevented the Media's Darling candidate from being president. You might be the dumbest poster ever ...

[TheXFactor]

Where's Marty?

Even if Marty is making over $15,000 a month.

It's only a matter of time before he loses everything and is back on the streets again.

[ErickAA]

Also, you need to be careful when awarding benefits to the "poor", because abuse inevitably occurs.

If the benefits one reaps for not working comes close to the pay level of holding a minimum wage job, most people will simply choose not to work, or to work part-time under-the-table.

I personally know some people who do this.

They claim to have zero income, collect all of the benefits they possibly can due to being a bottom-income American, and then take cash jobs under-the-table.

These people are by no means wealthy, but in some cases they're actually doing better than lower-middle-class people working full time jobs and receiving no benefits.

BTW, I have always tried to help out friends and friendly acquaintances who are struggling financially. I have helped them obtain unemployment benefits, fight unscrupulous landlords, resolve customer service issues with banks, utilities, or other companies which returned much-needed money to them, and fight workplace violations. I've done this for many people, and just because I'm good at this sort of thing and want to help them out.

I actually have a lot of visibility into the real lives of people at all different class levels, due to friendships I've made over the years with people who are rich, middle-class, and poor.

I can tell you lots of stories I've personally witnessed (or been party to assisting) where poor people legitimately get shafted by society, and also lots of stories of lazy people who just want to hustle benefits and do the very minimum. The poor as a whole are neither oppressed salt-of-the-earth angels nor good-for-nothing bums who want to live on hardworking people's dime. It's actually a fascinating and sometimes depressing spectrum of circumstances.

Maybe I'll write more about it someday.

This is obviously a 2 way street. The rich abuse the system way worse than the poor IMO, basically because they have way more opportunities to do so. We just view it as more acceptable. Dudes like Trump declare bankruptcy to avoid paying taxes and are "just working the system" and we are generally ok with it, but the poor guy who works the system to get overprescribed opiates and sells them on the streets is "abusing the system."

The simple fact is that a certain very high % of people are lazy and not very smart. It is just the way human societies are. The way things are going with automation and efficiency and computerization of everything, there is less and less need and opportunity for these people. But we still have to figure out a way to provide for them at some basic level or our society will collapse. This is something I think the Democrats understand a lot better than the Republicans.

[MrTickle]

Also, you need to be careful when awarding benefits to the "poor", because abuse inevitably occurs.

If the benefits one reaps for not working comes close to the pay level of holding a minimum wage job, most people will simply choose not to work, or to work part-time under-the-table.

I personally know some people who do this.

They claim to have zero income, collect all of the benefits they possibly can due to being a bottom-income American, and then take cash jobs under-the-table.

These people are by no means wealthy, but in some cases they're actually doing better than lower-middle-class people working full time jobs and receiving no benefits.

BTW, I have always tried to help out friends and friendly acquaintances who are struggling financially. I have helped them obtain unemployment benefits, fight unscrupulous landlords, resolve customer service issues with banks, utilities, or other companies which returned much-needed money to them, and fight workplace violations. I've done this for many people, and just because I'm good at this sort of thing and want to help them out.

I actually have a lot of visibility into the real lives of people at all different class levels, due to friendships I've made over the years with people who are rich, middle-class, and poor.

I can tell you lots of stories I've personally witnessed (or been party to assisting) where poor people legitimately get shafted by society, and also lots of stories of lazy people who just want to hustle benefits and do the very minimum. The poor as a whole are neither oppressed salt-of-the-earth angels nor good-for-nothing bums who want to live on hardworking people's dime. It's actually a fascinating and sometimes depressing spectrum of circumstances.

Maybe I'll write more about it someday.

This is right-wing argument for universal basic income. Everyone gets $x/month (enough for basic rent and basic food). Nobody can abuse the system, but nobody can get shafted and be poor enough not to eat. The money is low enough so it's impossible to save money (keeps being circulated = taxes which make the cost of UBI lower) and it's impossible to use it to fund a luxury life style.

Right wingers could support this on grounds that it encourages work for anyone who wants to not just survive (i.e. 99.9999% of people), would reduce crime and bureaucratic admin which many capitalists moan about when it comes to handling benefits. Best bit about the admin going for me is that it often fucks everything up anyway - means testing is a joke. End the state burden of food stamps/medicaid/childcare/other benefits. Rich people could support it as it means people could actually afford to buy things at their shops, especially with so many businesses going bust during the financial crisis.

[Salty_Aus]

I'd like to see a tax for those who are obscenely rich. Pick a generous figure, say one hundred million dollars.
Those who have $100,000,000 should be made to pay a tax rate that is extremely high. So high that it would be almost impossible to accumulate anymore wealth.
Also bring in very harsh laws for those who purposefully try to cheat this system. Fine them huge, put them in prison and and make them pay for their prison stay.
Index this figure to keep up with inflation.
All the capital that has already been amassed, break it up and force a level playing field.
$!00,000,000 not enough?.... make it $200,000,000

[v12cl]

Where are these many areas? Just curious.

I have seen the exact opposite everywhere. Credit became harder to obtain, which turned the lower middle class from homeowners to renters, and this increased rents across the board as the demand for rentals increased with fewer eligible homeowners. I can’t think of a single economic reason why a housing crash would help the truly poor.

I could see a few isolated spots where some newly married middle class couple may be able to rent a home that someone swooped in and bought from the bank after a foreclosure, but that doesn’t speak to the poor. I’ve seen rents rise quite fast and uniformly in any area that I’ve looked into.

I’m curious where these areas are where the crash helped the poor and working poor.

I personally experienced a massive reduction of rent in Las Vegas during those years, and that was one of the hardest-hit markets by the crash.

In fact, I got into a battle with my large complex's management, as they wanted to renew my lease at the same rate I paid the prior year, which was hundreds of dollars higher to the then-current market rate for the identical unit.

Basically I played chicken with them and said, "I'm a good tenant who always pays his rent on time and never causes problems. I will not sign a lease at above-market rent. Either lower my rent to what you are charging new tenants, or I will leave."

They sat on it for about a week, then finally backed down.

The economic reason for this?

The crash was so tough on our economy that basically everything became depressed. Additionally, rents often mimic the housing market in general. When housing prices are low, more people can afford to buy, so therefore the remaining renters either don't exist in a great enough number OR cannot afford the high rents. When housing prices are high, the reverse occurs.

While the housing crash did force some homeowners back to being renters, the depressed prices also allowed people to buy when they either couldn't afford it before, or were afraid to jump in with a loan they couldn't afford.

There are probably some local markets where this didn't occur, but I observed rents falling during that period, at least in California and Nevada.

Rent going down was not part of the housing crash.

People losing their homes and being forced to rent > more renters > rent goes up.