When a tournament substitutes a prize for cash out of the prizepool, is it ethical?

[Dan Druff]

Very interesting discussion broke out on Twitter today.

It all started when Allen Kessler (who else?) complained that the Rungood Poker Series in Oklahoma was "forcing" the top 10 winners to buy a cruise they may not want.

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Kessler also sent me a private message alerting me to the situation, presumably hoping I would back him up on this once I looked into it.

So what was Kessler talking about?

Apparently the Rungood Poker Series had a tournament where $15,000 was taken out of the prize pool in order to pay for a "$1500 cruise package" for the top ten finishers. The cruise would be a Cardplayer Cruise, taking place from May 3-10, 2018.

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My first concern, of course, was whether this $15,000 removed from the prizepool for these cruises was totally disclosed.

I asked this question on Twitter, and was shown a copy of their flyer. It definitely was clearly disclosed, so no problem there.



The next question: Was the cruise for two really worth $1500?

I asked Kessler this privately, and he conceded that, yes, the prize was worth approximately $1500 on the open market.

So, again, nobody was getting shortchanged.

I told Kessler at that point (privately) that he was making much ado about nothing, but then he raised a great point which I hadn't considered:

If the cruise is worth $1500, and they're taking $1500 out of the prize pool for each one, why make the cruise part of the tournament at all? Why not just award the $1500 cash to each player, and let them decide if they want to spend it on the cruise or not?

While this clearly wasn't a scam, I decided it was kind of unethical. A prize should only be awarded in lieu of cash if there's some benefit to the prize being there instead of cash -- such as it being added for free or at a discount. This one was neither. It looked to me that this was a backdoor way to force the sale of 10 cruises.

In the meantime, Kessler was getting hammered on Twitter by people bashing him for complaining about this, with many not understanding the point he was trying to raise. I came out and defended him, and explained the problem:

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Enter David "ODB" Baker.

Apparently he had some affection for the Rungood Poker Tour. Perhaps it's run by his friends? I don't know, but he got very angry about this whole discussion, and lashed out at both myself and Kessler, referring to both of us as "negative assy washed up whiners". He didn't name either of us in his initial tweet, but it's clear he was directing it at us, especially Kessler:

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David Baker and I have disliked each other for the past decade, even though there was never any major incident between us. In 2014, David and I had some strong words for each other on Twitter after I was angry at him for treating me disrespectfully at Commerce.

However, since that occurred, I actually once escrowed a bet between a PFA user and David, and we've played together at the WSOP a few times without any further incident. So while David and I still don't particularly care for each other, I'm really not interested in pursuing an ongoing feud with him.

This was actually the first time since that 2014 Twitter fight where David said anything nasty to me, but I chose to ignore it, because it seemed that it was mainly aimed at Kessler, whom it appeared David also personally disliked.

Kessler and David continued to argue back and forth after this, and I stayed out of it.


So back to Rungood.

I had another thought: What if Rungood Poker was receiving these cruises at a discount, and then taking $1500 (full price) out of the pool for each one they were "awarding"? That would essentially be extra undisclosed rake, and would be VERY unethical. I raised this issue:

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To Rungood's credit, they gave a response:

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There's no way to verify this, but I think I believe them.

I then decided that this whole thing wasn't quite as nefarious as it originally seemed.

Indeed, the tournament was very player-unfriendly by "awarding" a cruise by taking its retail price out of the prize pool. But between Rungood's excellent reputation in the community (they had lots of defenders on Twitter, including well-respected pros), their willingness to answer questions, and the fact that nothing was hidden or scammy here, I decided that this situation was more likely just an oversight.

They probably thought they would create excitement by making 10 seats to their upcoming cruise part of the prize pool (the cruise is specifically for Rungood), and they also figured they'd get the added benefit of filing up the ship a bit more. I'm guessing that they didn't think about the fact that deducting retail price from the prize pool made it into a situation where only they benefit, and where the player would be better off with the equivalent cash.

So I decided to lay off Rungood, and just made a polite suggestion to perhaps give players the option in the future to trade in the seat for cash at full value:

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To Rungood's credit, they sent a polite response, thanking both myself and Kessler, even though Kessler had taken a fairly aggressive tone with them:

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What do you guys think?

Is it ethical to take the full retail value of a prize out of the prizepool, even if the casino or poker tour is also paying full price to acquire it? Or should there always be a cash option in such a case?

I think it's not terrible, but it's definitely player-unfriendly unless they allow the winner to trade it in for full-value cash.

Anyway, I'll give Rungood the benefit of the doubt here, because they have a good reputation, and I doubt they thought of the potential negative appearance of what they were doing. They're known to be a very "rec-friendly" poker tour, and many admire them for bringing new people into the game and giving them a pleasant experience.

And regarding Kessler, though he took a LOT of heat here (both on Twitter and Facebook), he actually had a reasonable point. He didn't communicate it very well, and he came off a bit too aggressive, but he meant well. Kessler actually makes a lot of effort to call out bad behavior on the part of poker rooms, and he usually has a good point when he raises issue about something. You may not like his personality, but he is an honest guy who tries to protect the poker community, so give him credit there.

[Kevmath]

It's curious that the Chainsaw waits until the 4th and final event of the RunGood Poker Series Road to Open Water Global Championship to address this complaint. Maybe he's worried it's going to be a PPC Tour Ponzi scheme/scam/whatever happening all over again. The mention of 'Open Water', the image of a boat, and each schedule and structure sheet mentioning the awarding of a $1,500 Cruise for Two package for preliminary events plus 10 $1,500 Cruise for Two packages for the final 10 players in their Main Event should give the impression that if you participate in this event, there's a chance they could win a cruise. If they're not able to make the cruise in May 2018 or not wish to go, they have the option to go on a different CardPlayer Cruise or sell/transfer ro someone else. These mentions also appear in the structure sheets for each event.

A total of 50 $1,500 packages will be awarded across the four stops of the RGPS series since the first event in August. The listing for the CardPlayer Cruise involved in this package can be found here. I've never been on a cruise, so I would assume the Interior Cabin pricing would be around $700/person for this particular cruise?

DISCLAIMER: I played at a RunGoodPoker Series event earlier this year. It was not one that was awarding cruise packages for the final 10 players in the Main Event.

Since Allen is looking out for the best interest of the players and talks about transparency, maybe he should be speaking with the people at Golden Gates in Colorado, where he's currently playing at the Colorado Poker Championship Main Event.

The buy-in is listed as $1,100, but for some reason there's no breakdown of the buy-in on the structure sheet unlike the other events listed during the series. There were 307 entries and a prize pool of $297,790. Depending on the venue, many would assume the buy-in is $1,000 +100, when it's really $970 + $130. The other events listed on the CPC schedule/structure sheet have the amount going to the prize pool plus entry fee and staffing fee.

The CPC also has a Player of the Series contest with the top 10 points earners receiving a seat into their $2,500 High Roller on Wednesday December 20. What if you can't make it Wednesday for the High Roller? You're out of luck because you can't transfer the seat or get cash value for it. I assume Golden Gates is adding the $25,000 in High Roller seats from their promotional fund as there's no mention of taking $ out of the prize pool.

While I agree that Allen attempts to be in the best interests of the poker community as a whole, there's a bit of self-interest mixed in as well.

[Dan Druff]

It's curious that the Chainsaw waits until the 4th and final event of the RunGood Poker Series Road to Open Water Global Championship to address this complaint. Maybe he's worried it's going to be a PPC Tour Ponzi scheme/scam/whatever happening all over again. The mention of 'Open Water', the image of a boat, and each schedule and structure sheet mentioning the awarding of a $1,500 Cruise for Two package for preliminary events plus 10 $1,500 Cruise for Two packages for the final 10 players in their Main Event should give the impression that if you participate in this event, there's a chance they could win a cruise. If they're not able to make the cruise in May 2018 or not wish to go, they have the option to go on a different CardPlayer Cruise or sell/transfer ro someone else. These mentions also appear in the structure sheets for each event.

A total of 50 $1,500 packages will be awarded across the four stops of the RGPS series since the first event in August. The listing for the CardPlayer Cruise involved in this package can be found here. I've never been on a cruise, so I would assume the Interior Cabin pricing would be around $700/person for this particular cruise?

DISCLAIMER: I played at a RunGoodPoker Series event earlier this year. It was not one that was awarding cruise packages for the final 10 players in the Main Event.

Since Allen is looking out for the best interest of the players and talks about transparency, maybe he should be speaking with the people at Golden Gates in Colorado, where he's currently playing at the Colorado Poker Championship Main Event.

The buy-in is listed as $1,100, but for some reason there's no breakdown of the buy-in on the structure sheet unlike the other events listed during the series. There were 307 entries and a prize pool of $297,790. Depending on the venue, many would assume the buy-in is $1,000 +100, when it's really $970 + $130. The other events listed on the CPC schedule/structure sheet have the amount going to the prize pool plus entry fee and staffing fee.

The CPC also has a Player of the Series contest with the top 10 points earners receiving a seat into their $2,500 High Roller on Wednesday December 20. What if you can't make it Wednesday for the High Roller? You're out of luck because you can't transfer the seat or get cash value for it. I assume Golden Gates is adding the $25,000 in High Roller seats from their promotional fund as there's no mention of taking $ out of the prize pool.

While I agree that Allen attempts to be in the best interests of the poker community as a whole, there's a bit of self-interest mixed in as well.

Always nice to have a Kevmath post.

I agree that this was well-disclosed and there is no scammy aspect to any of this. My criticism of Rungood was much less passionate than Allen's.

I have no problem with a cruise being awarded, but I just think doing so at full price (with no option to exchange it for cash) is player-unfriendly. Any player who wishes to take the cruise could buy the same one with the same money that was removed from their prize, so why not just award the $1500 to players and let them decide how to spend it?

If the cruise were being provided at a discount (say, they remove $1000 from the pool and give a $1500 cruise in its place), then that's a different story. Then the players benefit from having it instead of cash.

I've seen the "you can sell or transfer it" argument, but that's a pain in the ass, and it also might be difficult to find a buyer at full price. It just seems needless.

Rungood has stated that they are sending the full cruise fare to Cardplayer Cruises for each winner, so why not just give a cash option -- even if it's something they quietly offer to each winner on the side?

I don't think this is a big deal, and there's no scam here, so I put this thread in Poker Community Discussion instead of the Scams forum here.

I just think a lot of people (not you, Kevmath) are missing Allen's point.

I will concede that Allen is making way too big of a deal over this, though, and he's also not explaining himself all that well.

[DonaldTrumpsHairPiece]

Official, Todd has too much free time on his hands. And to think instead of this we could have a 3rd tier poker forum, maybe.

[thesparten]

It wasnt unethical..

It was disclosed and market value for the package.. Of course it probably cost them less to purchase the tickets but the players got all there value(being it was disclosed)..

I once played a tournament were tge winner also got an omega watch which was out of the prize pool. I cant say give me the $ instead couse i want to buy a "tag"..

Its just jews being jews.. All of anti semitsm is not anti semitsm. It comes from somewhere. Who wants them the fuck around. You goto just beat them with sticks.

[Texter]

Everyone knows that if you organize a cruise the 5th or 10th room is free...casinos probably getting the poker room manager/tourney director a free trip, which could be unethical