Negreanu's take on Ivey's level of responsibility in the Full Tilt fiasco -- I separate the truth from the trash

[Dan Druff]

In general, I like Daniel Negreanu. I feel that there are several reasons to like the guy:

- He is great for the game of poker. He is personable, good at coming off as a "regular guy", and is very accessible to his fans.

- He is (usually) willing to speak out about what he feels is right and wrong, even if it causes controversy or gets other powers-that-be in poker angry.

- He has made some great suggestions to improve the WSOP, and some of them have been implemented.

- From all accounts, he seems to be a decent human being and has not been involved in any scandals.


However, one problem with Negreanu is that he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut when it comes to defending his friends. Sometimes he speaks up for friends and bends over backwards to defend their not-so-honest actions, and while that makes him a great friend to have, it detracts somewhat from his credibility.

I'm not saying that Daniel should join the lynch mob against close friends like Erick Lindgren (even if everything said about Lindgren is true), but at the very least, he should keep quiet if it looks like his pals really are guilty as charged.

An interview was postedo n Pokerlistings with Negreanu, where he finally speaks out about how much blame Phil Ivey deserves for the Full Tilt debacle. Pocketfives did an article about the interview, highlighting the most interesting points:

http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/...l-tilt-587488/

Read the article (it's pretty short), and then you can read Negreanu's quotes below and I will analyze which I agree and disagree with...

You know what I find amazing? I find it amazing that people pin it on the black guy. What about Erik Seidel and John Juanda and Phil Gordon and Andy Bloch? What’s the difference? Why is everyone so hung up on saying that Phil Ivey has done something wrong?

He’s not Howard Lederer or Chris Ferguson or Ray Bitar. Those are the scumbags that did it.

My take: Pin it on the black guy? Please. I've spoken to hundreds of angry people about the Full Tilt mess, and not one has mentioned the color of Ivey's skin. Negreanu has always been rather awkward when it comes to black people. From his inappropriate blackface video to his weird phase of trying to talk like a black guy, he seems to have some sort of odd obsession with black culture. In this case, he is seeing racism where it absolutely doesn't exist. Nobody cares if Ivey is black or white. They just want their stolen money back.

Why is Ivey getting more hate than people like Juanda, Gordon, Bloch, and Seidel? Because he owned more of Full Tilt than the rest of those guys, and from the accounts I've heard, he had visibility into and decision-making power within the company. He may not have exercised that power (or even cared to look into what they were doing), but he had the power. The others apparently didn't have nearly the power, ownership percentage, or visibility that Ivey did, so he definitely deserves more blame.

Negreanu is correct that Lederer, Ferguson, and Bitar "are the scumbags that did it." It seems that Ivey may have been ignorant to what was going on, and Rafe Furst's role is unclear. Remember, Furst owned a large percentage, as well, and also had the visibility/decision-making power that Ivey did.

So how much is Ivey to blame? If he didn't actively steal from anyone, but simply received $1 million/month that he thought were legitimate profits, is he innocent? Definitely not, because ignorance is not an excuse. He had the power to find out where that money was coming from. Even if he chose to let Bitar, Ferguson, and Lederer handle the business side of things, it was his responsibility to check up on what was actually happening. This is the same concept where CEOs of a corporation can be held criminally liable if their underlings are committing financial crimes with company funds, and they stay willfully ignorant.

Ivey’s the only one who even released a statement really. He’s the only one who did anything to take a stand.

My take: This is true, but I have a hard time believing that this was for unselfish reasons.

It was to Ivey's benefit to jump off that sinking ship and distance himself from it. The plan worked, too. Ivey's reputation has recovered greatly, and many even consider him a hero. When Ivey attempted to get out of his contract with Full Tilt, the rumor was that he was looking to become a free agent to sign a lucrative deal with another company (Pokerstars?). It wasn't because he felt so guilty about the players' Full Tilt money being lost.

And what happened to this claim by Ivey:

"I am not playing in the World Series of Poker, as I do not believe it is fair that I compete when others cannot. I am doing everything I can to seek a solution to the problem as quickly as possible."

Well, we still don't have our Full Tilt money back, and yet Ivey is right here playing the 2012 WSOP, as if nothing ever happened.

What is different about this year than last? The people who can't afford to play the WSOP due to Full Tilt's thefts STILL can't play, as they STILL have not been paid. So why is Ivey playing this year? How has it suddenly become fair that he can "compete while others cannot"?

In reality, that statement was all PR fluff, and he returned to the game because his return to other tournaments (starting in late 2011) was generally met with excitement rather than scorn.



When asked why Annie Duke is frequently attacked regarding UB, but Hellmuth generally gets a free pass, Negreanu said this:

I think that’s because people know the truth. Annie was involved in the business side of things, and that’s a fact. She knew the inner workings. She knew that god-mode existed. Phil Hellmuth, much like Ivey, is about himself. I don’t mean that in a bad way, but Ivey and Hellmuth are about playing poker and getting it done and getting a paycheck. Phil Ivey had nothing to do with the setup or the running of Full Tilt and neither did Hellmuth with UB.

My take: I actually agree with Negreanu here. I believe that Phil Hellmuth just wore the UB cap and did what they said when it came to promoting the site, but ignored the business side of things. I'm not sure how much Annie knew, but it was definitely more than Phil. Again, Hellmuth does not deserve a pass because of this willful ignorance, but I do believe that Hellmuth didn't know about the cheating, and might have even been fooled into believing that everything had been made right after the scandal hit.



BOTTOM LINE: Negreanu likes Ivey and Hellmuth. This has been known for years. It seems that he always wants to defend these guys, regardless of their culpability. I believe that neither was involved in any of the cheating at UB or Full Tilt, but at the same time, they still got rich off of other people's money, and they both displayed a level of willful ignorance that can't be ignored. Negreanu glosses over this and gives them both a pass on this way too easily.

[BCR]

Good write-up, and I mostly agree, but I do question how in the dark either guy was. Ivey profited more off his company's malfeasance I would guess, but I can buy him being out of touch. He's a true sicko, and I don't think his thoughts go much further than the next sweat, whether it be poker, craps, or sports betting. The thing with Ivey is you always think to yourself," he's just so fucking good, he has to be so much smarter and aware than he appears." That's the question mark with him. He says so little, and almost plays up the unaware, detached angle because it adds to his intimidating aloof image, but he has to be really fucking smart. Almost too smart to not pay attention to a company making him so very wealthy. He doesn't strike me as a guy who would be out of that particular loop of people. If he didn't know, he didn't want to know. I mean, how can you be known for having the best reads in the world, yet be unaware? A guy who makes reads like him is always paying attention, even when he seems to not be.

Hellmuth though isn't a degen like that. I'd go as far to say that among the true few "poker celebrities" of which there are only maybe ten of, that he works the least out of all of them. He hardly grinds cash games, he only plays high-profile big buy-in tournaments other than the occasional small WSOP field where he can grab a bracelet. He seems far more interested in being a star fucker and in business and self-promotion than actually playing. I agree I don't see him as a cheater, and I actually like him and think he's probably a decent family guy, but when I think back to what a man crush he had on Greg Pierson, and how interested he seemed in the business end of at least Iovation being an investor, I have to wonder if he has us all fooled. When you think back to HH's blog about Pierson,

http://haleyspokerblog.blogspot.com/...ing-names.html


and then remember his blog posts back then (taken from scribd site written by mookman), you have to shake your head and think if he didn't know, and was in the dark, he must have been the only one in the dark half the time with Russ and Greg if what we think happened at UB is what happened. Hellmuth is obv. very wealthy now, but back when he was an investor in Iovation and reliant upon his deal with UB, he stood to gain a hell of a lot by them succeeding. If he's dirty, he's very lucky that it seems limited to this isolated incident, and that he is viewed as such a straight shooter in poker. He gets the benefit of the doubt because he isn't known as a hustler, but I do wonder with both him and Ivey how "unaware" they really were. If they were 'unaware", then I kind of question if we really even understand what went down with either company, and why they truly failed, and who the true villains are? I said I mostly agree with your post because it "feels" like those guys are self-interested like Daniel said, but color me skeptical still. They are great poker players, and we see what they want us to see. The argument that they are so into themselves that they wouldn't pay attention to the companies enriching them feels right observing them through the years, but is almost counter-intuitive. How those companies did was so much more important than anything they did playing poker was to their lifestyles if they were truly "about themselves" like Daniel claims.



November 7, 2004 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “Greg Pierson is the man! No, you haven't heard of him yet, but mark my words:GP's new company, IoVation' an internet security company--will have a billion dollar valuation by 2008. Considering how much respect I have for Greg, and considering the fact that I'm lucky enough to be an investor in IoVation, I vowed to Greg that he could get some private lessons from me anytime.”

October 23, 2005 - Phil Hellmuth Story in Aruba“With 135 players remaining, I went down to the tournament area to root for m ygood friend Greg Pierson. Greg is the founder and CEO of Iovation, an Internet securitycompany. I knew from the day I met him that Pierson would be a billionaire someday, but can he play poker?”

October 18, 2006 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “Meanwhile I played in a no limit Hold'em side game at the Holiday Inn, wherethe blinds were $10-$20, and the buy-in was $5,000 a man. Russ Hamilton, Greg Pierson, Bruno Fitoussi, Antonio Esfandiari, Ken Einiger, and the casino owner Mike Posner were all in the game.”“This was about high stakes no limit, but also about getting time with my business partners Russ and Greg.

”April 23, 2007 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “On Friday night my wife flew in and we celebrated with my good friend GregPierson (the CEO of Iovation) at his birthday party, where he had Smash Mouth play”“Eventually the party moved from the Portland Art Museum to Greg's "Street of Dreams" house. You should see this place! It has an indoor basketball court, that youcan see from the bar. In fact, you can throw basketballs from a balcony next to the bar. Ithas a "Horizonless pool" with a waterfall in the middle. And, of course, there is the private garage with a couple of amazing cars and motorcycles. Nice place Greg! And really, I was up there to support my man Greg, and his wife Janelle.”

June 22, 2007 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “On the plus side of the ledger, it was terrific having my great friends Greg and Janelle Pierson in attendance watching the final table. Greg is an amazing guy, who is also CEO of Iovation (a cutting edge Internet security firm with 37 customers, including GE). Greg was so chilled it was amazing! I'm so used to seeing him in "Business mode,"wheeling and dealing, and offering up great ideas (or shooting them down) with great energy. After I was eliminated, Greg, Janelle, my wife and I went out for dinner, and then my sons joined us for the show "Ka" at the MGM Grand.

”December 1, 2007 - Phil Hellmuth Blog Portland, Oregon – “Of course, some of my best buddies live up here, and it was great to chill with Jon Karl and Greg Pierson. Greg and Jon are the Founders of Iovation, and Iovation just received $15 million from Intel. I am lucky enough to be a shareholder in Iovation, and the prospects look amazing.”

July 1, 2008 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “The bracelet itself, if I can win it, has been promised to my close friend Greg Pierson who is the CEO of Iovation.”

[JimmyG_415]

"Why is Ivey getting more hate than people like Juanda, Gordon, Bloch, and Seidel? Because he owned more of Full Tilt than the rest of those guys, and from the accounts I've heard, he had visibility into and decision-making power within the company."

So I see your answer here.
IMO I don't see why the original 11 get a pass, but it sounds like they weren't equal partners, or if they were $$$ wise, not in business responsibilities.

The one person I'm not buying it on is Phil Gordon.
To hear him talk pre BF, FTP was his and Ferguson's idea. He was tilt boy or something and that is where the name came from.

I'm pretty sure he had a lawsuit to get his name removed from everything, so I could be totally off, I just don't see him just pledging $$$ like Ivey or Hellmuth, and not caring at all about the business side of things.

[BCR]

Good write-up, and I mostly agree, but I do question how in the dark either guy was. Ivey profited more off his company's malfeasance I would guess, but I can buy him being out of touch. He's a true sicko, and I don't think his thoughts go much further than the next sweat, whether it be poker, craps, or sports betting. The thing with Ivey is you always think to yourself," he's just so fucking good, he has to be so much smarter and aware than he appears." That's the question mark with him. He says so little, and almost plays up the unaware, detached angle because it adds to his intimidating aloof image, but he has to be really fucking smart. Almost too smart to not pay attention to a company making him so very wealthy. He doesn't strike me as a guy who would be out of that particular loop of people. If he didn't know, he didn't want to know. I mean, how can you be known for having the best reads in the world, yet be unaware? A guy who makes reads like him is always paying attention, even when he seems to not be.

Hellmuth though isn't a degen like that. I'd go as far to say that among the true few "poker celebrities" of which there are only maybe ten of, that he works the least out of all of them. He hardly grinds cash games, he only plays high-profile big buy-in tournaments other than the occasional small WSOP field where he can grab a bracelet. He seems far more interested in being a star fucker and in business and self-promotion than actually playing. I agree I don't see him as a cheater, and I actually like him and think he's probably a decent family guy, but when I think back to what a man crush he had on Greg Pierson, and how interested he seemed in the business end of at least Iovation being an investor, I have to wonder if he has us all fooled. When you think back to HH's blog about Pierson,

http://haleyspokerblog.blogspot.com/...ing-names.html


and then remember his blog posts back then (taken from scribd site written by mookman), you have to shake your head and think if he didn't know, and was in the dark, he must have been the only one in the dark half the time with Russ and Greg if what we think happened at UB is what happened. Hellmuth is obv. very wealthy now, but back when he was an investor in Iovation and reliant upon his deal with UB, he stood to gain a hell of a lot by them succeeding. If he's dirty, he's very lucky that it seems limited to this isolated incident, and that he is viewed as such a straight shooter in poker. He gets the benefit of the doubt because he isn't known as a hustler, but I do wonder with both him and Ivey how "unaware" they really were. If they were 'unaware", then I kind of question if we really even understand what went down with either company, and why they truly failed, and who the true villains are? I said I mostly agree with your post because it "feels" like those guys are self-interested like Daniel said, but color me skeptical still. They are great poker players, and we see what they want us to see. The argument that they are so into themselves that they wouldn't pay attention to the companies enriching them feels right observing them through the years, but is almost counter-intuitive. How those companies did was so much more important than anything they did playing poker was to their lifestyles if they were truly "about themselves" like Daniel claims.



November 7, 2004 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “Greg Pierson is the man! No, you haven't heard of him yet, but mark my words:GP's new company, IoVation' an internet security company--will have a billion dollar valuation by 2008. Considering how much respect I have for Greg, and considering the fact that I'm lucky enough to be an investor in IoVation, I vowed to Greg that he could get some private lessons from me anytime.”

October 23, 2005 - Phil Hellmuth Story in Aruba“With 135 players remaining, I went down to the tournament area to root for m ygood friend Greg Pierson. Greg is the founder and CEO of Iovation, an Internet securitycompany. I knew from the day I met him that Pierson would be a billionaire someday, but can he play poker?”

October 18, 2006 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “Meanwhile I played in a no limit Hold'em side game at the Holiday Inn, wherethe blinds were $10-$20, and the buy-in was $5,000 a man. Russ Hamilton, Greg Pierson, Bruno Fitoussi, Antonio Esfandiari, Ken Einiger, and the casino owner Mike Posner were all in the game.”“This was about high stakes no limit, but also about getting time with my business partners Russ and Greg.

”April 23, 2007 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “On Friday night my wife flew in and we celebrated with my good friend GregPierson (the CEO of Iovation) at his birthday party, where he had Smash Mouth play”“Eventually the party moved from the Portland Art Museum to Greg's "Street of Dreams" house. You should see this place! It has an indoor basketball court, that youcan see from the bar. In fact, you can throw basketballs from a balcony next to the bar. Ithas a "Horizonless pool" with a waterfall in the middle. And, of course, there is the private garage with a couple of amazing cars and motorcycles. Nice place Greg! And really, I was up there to support my man Greg, and his wife Janelle.”

June 22, 2007 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “On the plus side of the ledger, it was terrific having my great friends Greg and Janelle Pierson in attendance watching the final table. Greg is an amazing guy, who is also CEO of Iovation (a cutting edge Internet security firm with 37 customers, including GE). Greg was so chilled it was amazing! I'm so used to seeing him in "Business mode,"wheeling and dealing, and offering up great ideas (or shooting them down) with great energy. After I was eliminated, Greg, Janelle, my wife and I went out for dinner, and then my sons joined us for the show "Ka" at the MGM Grand.

”December 1, 2007 - Phil Hellmuth Blog Portland, Oregon – “Of course, some of my best buddies live up here, and it was great to chill with Jon Karl and Greg Pierson. Greg and Jon are the Founders of Iovation, and Iovation just received $15 million from Intel. I am lucky enough to be a shareholder in Iovation, and the prospects look amazing.”

July 1, 2008 - Phil Hellmuth Blog “The bracelet itself, if I can win it, has been promised to my close friend Greg Pierson who is the CEO of Iovation.”

WTF is this crap? This is example 1-A of why you don't post at 3:45 AM after having far too many drinks. A thousand word essay that could have been summed up with a simple sentence of, I have always questioned if their public persona match up with their private persona.

[craftbeerdrinker]

Doesn't matter, none of the pros who backed Full Tilt have returned the money they got from FTP.