I'm just not sold on the European union.

[sonatine]

It never struck me as a good idea. The advantages with regards to travel/work seemed like something all Europeans should be able to enjoy without 'membership' in some artificial community.

I'm sure the nuances of it all arent apparent to me but from what I can pick up, there is a real sense that its smothering nations with a regulatory framework that virtually no one actually benefits from, beyond failed states struggling with austerity.

I'm sure things will get a little awkward once it's officially dismantled, either via a Le Pen victory in May or through organic and apparently inevitable means shortly thereafter, but is it really something Euros would miss if the travel/work benefits were somehow maintained?

[GambleBotsChafedPenis]

I get the idea of zee germans and having a weaker currency because of deadbeats in the EU, but I cant imagine regular germans were all that thrilled that they had to bail out the greeks/Italians/Portuguese...

seems tough to have a singular currency when its comprised of nations with their own economic and social agendas...especially when some of those nations are like, 'we don't give a fuck about saving and working'...

[sonatine]

Then you have a country like Greece, who got hornswaggled by international predatory loan cartels who swept in behind the 2004 olympics and offered them a huge pile of cash to invest in upgrading their infrastructure to keep the lights on in their totally-going-to-attract-tourists olympic park, claiming the returns would more the cover the principle plus their nut. Bad yudgement, Greece.

So now a housewife in Brussels has to pitch in to float that? I'd fucking lose it, doubly so considering the money doesnt even end up reinvested in the union.

And had Greece said 'sorry Im flat buss, go fuck yourself' to the loancunts, it might not be so profitable for them to do the same shit in Brazil and every other 2nd world backwater that thinks their Olympics are going to help them turn the corner.

[GambleBotsChafedPenis]

Then you have a country like Greece, who got hornswaggled by international predatory loan cartels who swept in behind the 2004 olympics and offered them a huge pile of cash to invest in upgrading their infrastructure to keep the lights on in their totally-going-to-attract-tourists olympic park, claiming the returns would more the cover the principle plus their nut. Bad yudgement, Greece.

So now a housewife in Brussels has to pitch in to float that? I'd fucking lose it, doubly so considering the money doesnt even end up reinvested in the union.

And had Greece said 'sorry Im flat buss, go fuck yourself' to the loancunts, it might not be so profitable for them to do the same shit in Brazil and every other 2nd world backwater that thinks their Olympics are going to help them turn the corner.

this is the shit that's laughable...I don't know morbid details of all the Olympic shit, but what a scam...I get the idea of wanting to be all inclusive and shit, but there are some nations that shouldn't be hosting major events (Qatar WC? lol, they had to shift the WC around because it's 120+ when the WC should be going on and that's gonna fuck with the multi-multi billion dollar engine that is Euro club football)...I mean you have whatever it is $5-10BB in infrastructure built in Greece and brazil that's just sitting there unused right now...imagine what you could have done if you actually put that towards improving those countries?

/tangent

I believe the argument has always been the Germanys/frances of the EU would help to prop up those less well to do countries...shit like that just causes market dislocations and what happened with all the bailouts...again I don't follow it too closely, but guess those countries were doing just fine until they got pulled into the EU...markets tend to have a way of figuring shit out...id really love to meet the fucker who came up with this "united states of Europe" and if they truly are functioning or have downs in some form or another...

[GambleBotsChafedPenis]

one more thing...

the really fucked up thing is that the germans/rich EU countries can put all this money into bailouts and they really have no power over those other sovereign nations to do shit...because well THEY'RE SOVEREIGN FUCKING COUNTRIES...worst thing they can do is threaten to kick 'em out of the EU which then destabilizes everything...ooooooooooh harsh...thanks for the money germans, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of the acropolis...

I don't know the specifics of shit here in the US, but guessing if a state got really out of line with their spending relative to their tax revenues the feds could come in and say, 'lol fuck you we got this now'...shit like that aint happening in the EU unless you want to start WWIII...

[MumblesBadly]

one more thing...

the really fucked up thing is that the germans/rich EU countries can put all this money into bailouts and they really have no power over those other sovereign nations to do shit...because well THEY'RE SOVEREIGN FUCKING COUNTRIES...worst thing they can do is threaten to kick 'em out of the EU which then destabilizes everything...ooooooooooh harsh...thanks for the money germans, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of the acropolis...

I don't know the specifics of shit here in the US, but guessing if a state got really out of line with their spending relative to their tax revenues the feds could come in and say, 'lol fuck you we got this now'...shit like that aint happening in the EU unless you want to start WWIII...

Greece showed that the decision to leave the EU without having one's own currency, a piss poor economy, and a mountain range of debt is a just too scary for the pols in such a country to pull the trigger.

[GambleBotsChafedPenis]

one more thing...

the really fucked up thing is that the germans/rich EU countries can put all this money into bailouts and they really have no power over those other sovereign nations to do shit...because well THEY'RE SOVEREIGN FUCKING COUNTRIES...worst thing they can do is threaten to kick 'em out of the EU which then destabilizes everything...ooooooooooh harsh...thanks for the money germans, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of the acropolis...

I don't know the specifics of shit here in the US, but guessing if a state got really out of line with their spending relative to their tax revenues the feds could come in and say, 'lol fuck you we got this now'...shit like that aint happening in the EU unless you want to start WWIII...

Greece showed that the decision to leave the EU without having one's own currency, a piss poor economy, and a mountain range of debt is a just too scary for the pols in such a country to pull the trigger.

status quo is probably the easiest thing to swallow, but I'm sure they could go through some pain, go back to the drachma and be able to do their own thing...that's the way it was before and they survived...not saying it would be easy or the sexy or anything like that...the pain would probably be really fucking bad to go through so they're probably just like, 'we'll deal with the stupid germans as long as we keep getting our money'...

[gimmick]

It's a trade union. It's not so corrupt or inefficient that it could get even close to negating the benefits of a single market and selectively pooling small amounts of wealth to it's member states.

US government is working really hard to become so corrupt and inefficient that some wealthier states could be better of just leaving the federation, but even that's doubtful.

[sonatine]

It's a trade union. It's not so corrupt or inefficient that it could get even close to negating the benefits of a single market and selectively pooling small amounts of wealth to it's member states.

US government is working really hard to become so corrupt and inefficient that some wealthier states could be better of just leaving the federation, but even that's doubtful.

Im confused about the comparison to the US government and the European union, it seems like a shady non-sequitur...? The US government is in a literal constitutional crisis and being raided and dismantled by white nationalists propped up by our cold war enemy, nothing in the EU seems even fractionally as bad as things are here, so whats the point of that comparison?

Beyond that, please elaborate on the benefits of the EU? Because on paper I love the idea of it pooling small amounts of wealth to bolster/insulate member states against fluctuation but it seems that despite being a lovely principle, its considerably more vulnerable to the spikes in instability than the mean.

[gimmick]

It's a trade union. It's not so corrupt or inefficient that it could get even close to negating the benefits of a single market and selectively pooling small amounts of wealth to it's member states.

US government is working really hard to become so corrupt and inefficient that some wealthier states could be better of just leaving the federation, but even that's doubtful.

Im confused about the comparison to the US government and the European union, it seems like a shady non-sequitur...? The US government is in a literal constitutional crisis and being raided and dismantled by white nationalists propped up by our cold war enemy, nothing in the EU seems even fractionally as bad as things are here, so whats the point of that comparison?

Beyond that, please elaborate on the benefits of the EU? Because on paper I love the idea of it pooling small amounts of wealth to bolster/insulate member states against fluctuation but it seems that despite being a lovely principle, its considerably more vulnerable to the spikes in instability than the mean.

EU/US comparison was just about the benefits of sticking together. Even though your union is in many ways more wasteful and influenced by corporate lobbying it's still even in that state beneficial.

Fluctuations is one thing. A more relevant aspect is sharing resources. For example all EU countries share trade negotiators instead of all of the member states having their own and they have the clout of the whole single market (500million souls in very wealthy area). All member states spend less for negotiations and make far more beneficial deals than they ever could on their own. And the same thing happens in most aspects that relate to international trade. Basically why corporations make sense and why all capitalistic ecosystems lead to monopolies (if uncontrolled).

[sonatine]

Im confused about the comparison to the US government and the European union, it seems like a shady non-sequitur...? The US government is in a literal constitutional crisis and being raided and dismantled by white nationalists propped up by our cold war enemy, nothing in the EU seems even fractionally as bad as things are here, so whats the point of that comparison?

Beyond that, please elaborate on the benefits of the EU? Because on paper I love the idea of it pooling small amounts of wealth to bolster/insulate member states against fluctuation but it seems that despite being a lovely principle, its considerably more vulnerable to the spikes in instability than the mean.

EU/US comparison was just about the benefits of sticking together. Even though your union is in many ways more wasteful and influenced by corporate lobbying it's still even in that state beneficial.

Fluctuations is one thing. A more relevant aspect is sharing resources. For example all EU countries share trade negotiators instead of all of the member states having their own and they have the clout of the whole single market (500million souls in very wealthy area). All member states spend less for negotiations and make far more beneficial deals than they ever could on their own. And the same thing happens in most aspects that relate to international trade. Basically why corporations make sense and why all capitalistic ecosystems lead to monopolies (if uncontrolled).

Got it. Like logically, everything you said makes sense, but instinctively I feel like the same arguments against genetic homogeny in seeds should apply to this 'aggregate' currency market.

Again, I make no secret of my lack of pragmatic education on the subject.

[adamantium]

gotta love them open borders, working out just great.

[gimmick]

EU/US comparison was just about the benefits of sticking together. Even though your union is in many ways more wasteful and influenced by corporate lobbying it's still even in that state beneficial.

Fluctuations is one thing. A more relevant aspect is sharing resources. For example all EU countries share trade negotiators instead of all of the member states having their own and they have the clout of the whole single market (500million souls in very wealthy area). All member states spend less for negotiations and make far more beneficial deals than they ever could on their own. And the same thing happens in most aspects that relate to international trade. Basically why corporations make sense and why all capitalistic ecosystems lead to monopolies (if uncontrolled).

Got it. Like logically, everything you said makes sense, but instinctively I feel like the same arguments against genetic homogeny in seeds should apply to this 'aggregate' currency market.

Again, I make no secret of my lack of pragmatic education on the subject.

It's really just an extension of earlier trade unions from the 50's. It covers way more than it's predecessors and it could be likely pruned quite a bit, but it really has to exist in one form or another.

For Europe trade represents stability. We don't really trust the Russians, Americans and especially each other. Trade unions are a good enough reason for us to avoid warring with each other and represent a deterrent for other relevant players.

Even without the union Europe would be clustered and intertwined economically and regarding the homogeny EU really just sets the baseline for bare minimum (most member states have higher standards in most aspects). Like Turkey remains excluded from EU because they aren't really down with basic human rights or democracy.

[sonatine]

This all makes it doubly strange that the UK would allow itself to leave the union.

 

#lolrussiaments

[Lord of the Fraud]

Good luck trying to unravel the complexities of the EU. Even politicians and seasoned journalists struggle to balance the scales in regards to the pros and cons of it all.

But we (the UK) are now out thanks to the Little Englanders who still believe we should be ruling the waves.


The cons of the EU are many. How could there not be?.. But it worked. It especially worked for the working class when much needed investment was brought into the cities that Thatcher destroyed. Yet Thatcherites still got a few million of those working class turkeys to vote for christmas. (power of the Murdoch press)


Let's not forget the peace it brought to Europe too, with countries working with, rather than against each other.


The big mistake was allowing membership and freedom of movement for gypsy countries such as Bulgaria And Romania (Turkey was 100% NEVER happening)


Btw, just like Trump's victory, the Russians are loving Brexit. And that should tell anybody with half a Western brain. That, that, is a terrible thing for us (The civilized West)

Also Le Pen. Despite of a Russian blank check, is not winning the Run-Off election. You can take that to the bank.

[gimmick]

This all makes it doubly strange that the UK would allow itself to leave the union.

 

#lolrussiaments

They didn't really have to push that hard. Parts of British media have been pushing the euro-skeptic narrative for decades and largely unwarranted resentment towards EU had been growing a while.

They sold the EU as bureaucratic, costly governing body that was diminishing their sovereignty.

The whole EU has something like 40k employees. UK has something closer to a million government employees. The EU budget is roughly 1% GDP of it's member nations. With the savings from cooperation and huge increase in clout it would be really hard for it to make less than it costs. Basically it would require 3rd world levels of corruption, inefficiency and lopsidedness in distributing that wealth.

And then the whole sovereignty business. Every major decision goes through a vote in EU parliament that consists of democratically elected officials from member states like for example Nigel Farage from UK. UK didn't have open borders because of EU. They opted out of the Schengen treaty that governs that. The East-European immigrants they really brought on to themselves.

Long good article about that cluster fuck...
https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...r-inside-story
...that somehow became fault of EU when 3 of the 15 countries opened their borders to former eastern block countries.

The UK had choice between being one of the 3 leading countries as a part of the worlds strongest economy or to be irrelevant.

[sonatine]

Good luck trying to unravel the complexities of the EU. Even politicians and seasoned journalists struggle to balance the scales in regards to the pros and cons of it all.

But we (the UK) are now out thanks to the Little Englanders who still believe we should be ruling the waves.


The cons of the EU are many. How could there not be?.. But it worked. It especially worked for the working class when much needed investment was brought into the cities that Thatcher destroyed. Yet Thatcherites still got a few million of those working class turkeys to vote for christmas. (power of the Murdoch press)


Let's not forget the peace it brought to Europe too, with countries working with, rather than against each other.


The big mistake was allowing membership and freedom of movement for gypsy countries such as Bulgaria And Romania (Turkey was 100% NEVER happening)


Btw, just like Trump's victory, the Russians are loving Brexit. And that should tell anybody with half a Western brain. That, that, is a terrible thing for us (The civilized West)

Also Le Pen. Despite of a Russian blank check, is not winning the Run-Off election. You can take that to the bank.

Master class here, ty.


Yeah I hedged against the apocalypse with a wager on Le Pen and have watched her odds against almost triple, so I'm burning a bit of money there but knowing we wont see France hamstring the framework for European stability while Trump is in office is well worth the sting.

[sonatine]

Brazil

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUSKBN17U0EX


also merkel endorsed macron which will galvanize everyone who has ever seen the footage of arabs being arabs in berlin to vote for le pen.

[Wiganer]

The other advantage of the EU was the right to live/work in other eu countries with full reciprocal rights. This was great for the economy and directly benefitted many people. I was going to be one of them, retiring fairly early to a much cheaper place to live, while being able to draw my pension and have full citizen rights.

Unfortunately, the type of people I grew up with, thick northern ingrates, resentful about the fact that foreigners came to the uk to do the jobs they were not prepared to do, pulled a plug and fucked it up. The fact they fucked it up for embourgoisified aging lotus eaters like me and the missus perhaps shouldn't be regretted, but the fact they fucked it up for all the aspirational enterprising internationalist youngsters of this and the next few generations is.

[LarryLaffer]

i'm not sold on the state of the union actually.


it's rather long and contrived