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Thread: Review of Yebsite-Druff Video

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    Cubic Zirconia themuppets's Avatar
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    Review of Yebsite-Druff Video

    Well, the thing is: I won't be able to play any serious games for another month or two and I miss the HUHU. I also want to keep my mind sharp so when I start playing again I don't have to go through that painful re-learning process where you keep saying to yourself, "Oh yeah, now I remember why that's a bad line."

    I realize some may feel it's poor form to post any HULHE strat, but I honestly don't belong to any study groups or private forums at this time so I figure fuck it, I'm just gonna do it. Maybe my play isn't as good as I think it is, and you'll all get a good laugh out of it.

    I used the Yebsite versus Druff match as a vehicle for this review. The video is embedded below. My only reason for choosing this match is because I knew it was available and I remember from watching it previoulsy that there were a lot of spots I had opinions on.

    Finally, I'm not pretending to be a coach or an expert, and I don't wish to give that impression. Druff's accomplishments in the poker world far exceed my own. If anyone disagrees with any of my comments, I would really appreciate any feedback and maybe we can get some discussion going on some of the hands.

    So far, I've reviewed the first 30 minutes of play. Depending on what happens with this thread, I may or may not be encouraged to continue working through the video.

    GL at the tables.



    ~01:16 I like Druff's play. I think Yebsite's flop trey w/ 55 is pretty bad. He has close to 0% FE versus better hands and very few worse hands are calling. Even when Druff is drawing, he will typically have an equity edge.

    ~02:01 I agree with Druff that he likely has the best hand on the turn, especially since you would expect a player who treys 55 to also raise the flop with a stronger draw. I'm not sure there's a lot of value in the bet, however. Checking to induce is likely the better play.

    ~2:19 Folding T5o otb is pretty tight for HULHE.

    ~3:19 Agree with Druff that limping the btn is a bad strategy in LHE. There are a ton of different ways to play these spots from the bb. I don't mind checking back such a weak holding and leading the flop is fine precisely for the reason Druff states. A c/r might be sexier as it gets more money in the pot.

    ~04:11 I like the play of the hand. I think Druff's comment that he should have bet the turn, while correct from an FTOP perspective, is kind of results-oriented. Nothing wrong with keeping the pot small and trying to induce a river bluff on a tricky board texture that some opponents will get kind of crazy with. The flop peel with K5o is better than it looks. Assuming a conservative 75% btn opening range and 100% c-bet on that flop, you have about 45% equity in the pot and decent sd value.

    ~6:11 Another really tight fold with 69o otb. Playing a lot of hands IP is a good thing -- it makes you difficult to read, you have some FE pf and many opponent's will c/f a majority of missed flops and you ofc have a positional advantage postflop.

    ~06:25 Pretty tight fold from the bb w/ Q2o. Theoretically, if you're folding this hand, you are defending less than 69% of your bb's. It's true that such hands are harder to play postflop but part of HU play is learning to make marginal decisions OOP and this hand has a lot of high card value and makes good pairs (tpwk or bpgk).

    ~07:17 T2o is another really tight btn fold.

    ~7:42 The turn spot is kind of tricky from Yebsite's perspective. It's okay as a thin value bet as he still beats any other pair. It's a gross spot when raised because against a player you have little info on, you likely have to call down. I'm kind of torn. Checking back to induce a river bet saves you from a potentially tricky turn spot. Alternatively, if we are going to bet the turn, I almost think we should bet the river as well. An argument for the latter would be that Druff would have 3-bet pf with almost any hand that makes 2pair on that board and the 5s is usually a brick. Could be an interesting hand to analyze further.

    ~8:19 Druff plays a lot tighter in this match than almost any other HU player I have ever studied. 69o is almost always a defend unless the IP player has a ridiculously tight opening range and even in those cases you could argue that you have decent enough implied odds.

    ~8:55 I barrel turn some % of the time but it's another example where you rarely if ever get value and you almost never fold out any better hands (maybe a handful of weak Kings depending on the opponent). It's somewhat opponent dependent but if you can get a guy to bet the river a lot, then there's actually more value in inducing that bet.

    ~9:07 K2o is an incredibly tight fold in the bb.

    ~9:33 Q3o is another really tight fold. By this point in the match, Yebsite should be considering opening nearly 100% of his btns. He obv doesn't know what hands Druff has been folding but he will have noticed the high frequency by now and should be adjusting accordingly.

    ~11:12 3-betting AJo pre is obv a fine play. Just a very quick note that some very good players almost never put in a 3! pf (especially if the betting is capped and they feel their opponent is capable of hand reading) as a way of disguising their range and also allowing them to represent a wider range when c/r'ing the flop. Alterntively, you can balance your 3-betting range with hands that your opponent would expect are a part of your calling range. In some cases, one strategy is more effective than the other versus particular opponent types (who may respect one line more than the other leading them to play fit or fold on the flop).

    ~11:48 With bpwk, I think Druff is better off trying to induce bluffs. Basically, the math for LHE suggests that if your opponent will continue putting in bets UI, inducing bluffs is more profitable than protecting your hand. Although Yebsite's flop trey is okay (especially if Druff is going to be c/r'ing bp), I would be on the lookout to see whether he balances this play or waits for the turn to raise his strong made hands.

    ~13:02 Folding is fine but the oop player should consider bluff raising some % of these dryer flops.

    ~13:46 OOP c/r's are super questionable. Obv it's great when they work out and you get extra value, but it's pretty costsly when your opponent checks back. It's somewhat player dependent but unless you are extremely confident that your opponent will b/c AND call a river bet UI, I think it's usually better just to bet.

    ~14:21 In this case, I think Druff's c/r is okay since he's getting called by almost ATC. Yebsite's 3-bet is okay as a free card play, but if he had barrelled the turn I wouldn't have liked it. And, again, we have yet to see him take this line with a strong made hand. One question to consider from Druff's perspective otf is how often your opponent will barrel the turn with his missed overs. Taking a broader veiw of the hand, you may sometimes get more value by allowing your opponent to continue barreling while simulataneously avoiding a raise on the turn when behind.

    ~15:04 One of very few siuations where I might check back the flop. The bb caller flops a piece here often and even though our equity isn't bad when bet/calling, we seldom if ever have an edge. Obv it's kind of transparent if we only bet these textures when we hit, however, so I think we should be betting some % of the time versus observant opponents.


    ~16:09 I don't like Yebsite's 4! w/ K5o, in part because I don't think it's a hand that plays well in a bloated pot and also because this is only the second time Druff has 3! if I'm remembering the action correctly. Even though it's a big pot, I also dislike calling Druff's flop raise since (a) it's not a texture most players will bluff and (b) off the top of my head, I don't think K5o has enough equity at this point in the hand. As played, I wonder if he should be raising the turn. Given the action and taking card removal into consideration, Druff's range is weighted toward flopped pairs or draws. There are actually very few combos of hands that Yeb is losing to at this point.

    ~16:15 I open T4o.

    ~16:26 I would defend Q5o.

    ~16:37 Depending on the opponent, I don't mind folding 43o. Anything in the bottom 10% is a wash at best against all but the worst opponents and I like to preserve the illusion that I'm just running hot.

    ~16:52 I would defend 92s.

    ~17:15 I'm undecided about Druff's flop raise. I tend to just smooth call a lot of flops IP, in part because I like to raise the turn a lot, but maybe I miss some value and cheaper bluff opportunities because of that. In this case, it's also a 3! pot so I think Yeb's range hits the K more often and when he has a club it probably beats our 8. I also think he's somewhat more likely to blindly barrel the turn after treying pre. In general, I think that's just a population tendency. I think maybe Yebsite can just b/f the flop. Although I think on two-tone or rainbow flops you usually have decent enough pot+implied odds to peel for a gs, when you get raised on a mono flop your opponent holds at least one club often enough that you're really only chasing 3 outs. Against any halfway decent opponent, I agree with Druff that the clarkmeister bluff is never going to be profitable in this spot. I will usually try it against an unknown in the husngs, however, and without doing any hard math on my results, my experience seems to be that it works often enough.

    ~18:05 One thing I haven't put enough thought into since I tend to be a smooth caller in the bb is how best to mix up one's pf 3-betting range. IIRC, Druff has only 3! twice so far and both times with a really strong hand. Should he consider a 3! with T7o? Why or why not?

    ~19:06 This is probably getting somewhat redundant, but I would defend 95o as well.

    ~20:21 I would defined 96o ofc. If I'm following the game flow correctly, it does appear Yeb has adjusted to Druff's tight blind defense and is opening more loosely than he was at the beginning of the match. Although I wouldn't be playing as tight as Druff regardless, he should be adjusting by calling a wider range and maybe playing back on some flops.

    ~22:38 In general, I don't mind firing the turn again with a big Ace. I don't agree that the reason is that we don't want to give a free card, though. IMO it's for value because you get called by any worse A, many K's and often enough even big Q's. A couple of things that might disuade me in this case: (a) Yeb has been 3-betting pretty wide so maybe he doesn't have as many of those combos in his range and (b) he seems to be aggressive enough that bluff-inducing lines will prove profitable.

    ~23:24 I think Yeb should be raising the flop almost always oop with a hand like K5o. Again, you're just taking such a big risk of letting the turn check through. As played, he should def fire the river. There are some draws that missed but the stronger ones probably fire the turn trying to fold out bw gutters or other loose peels and the board ran so dry you can get looked up light a lot.

    ~24:20 I open 85o.

    ~24:44 I open T4o.

    ~25:01 I defend T6o.

    ~25:36 With absolutely no sd value on the turn, I probably fire again with my gutter hoping to fold out gutshots and loose peels.

    ~25:46 I defend 54o.

    ~26:32 I don't like Yeb's river donk. Another spot where you're hardly ever getting value or folding out a better hand.

    ~26:51 I like the 3! with T8s. I suspect Druff should have been doing a little more of this.

    ~27:28 I disagree with Druff when he says he doesn't get called by worse if he raises the Ace. I think most flopped pairs will call down and the board offers a decent number of draws. I guess it's close since it was 3-bet pf, but we've seen Yeb's 3! range isn't necessarily especially tight or A-heavy and you have to take card removal into account.

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    Cubic Zirconia themuppets's Avatar
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    Part 2: ~30:00 - 45:00

    ~28:00 I like the play of the J9s hand a lot. We now see Druff does actually mix-up his 3-betting range some, I think we have enough equity to peel the flop and I also agree we don't have enough of a hand to call the turn.

    ~28:45 I like this hand too. It's hard to fold A-high on a board pairing river, but most opponent's know it's not a great card to fire a 3rd barrel on and as druff notes a lot of the flopped draws got there on the turn.

    ~29:48 Another really good hand. With the diamond draw coming in, there's just such a huge number of hands that Yebsite can be semi-bluffing, but it would likely be a good call down even if the turn was the 2 of clubs. For the same reason, I don't know if it's a great raise from Yebsite, especially since his Q-high beats some of the draws he would otherwise be trying to fold out on the river.

    ~30:10 I too fold the 63o. :-)

    ~30:25 This is another example of a board where I think you can sometimes put in a pure bluff, especially when holding some backdoor draws. Folding is ofc fine, especially versus an opponent who has been seen to 3! the flop pretty light at times.

    ~31:25 Standard calldown is standard. Also agree with Druff's comments wrt Yebsite's play.

    ~32:06 I really don't like Yebsite's bet with K-high on the river. If A-high made it this far, it's calling again and nobody's ever folding the chop either. Turn barrel is closer but probably bad for pretty much the same reason.

    ~32:17 I defend Q3o. Using this hand as an example, it has about 44% equity against a tightish opening range of the top 80% (I'm also pretty sure Yebsite is opening wider than that). Since we tend to realize most of that equity in LHE, we're basically throwing away half a big blind, especially if we're capable of making some strong postflop plays oop.

    ~32:38 Folding is fine. The math in these spots tends to be pretty close, especially against a more aggressive opponent who is capable of bluffing this texture (also, Yebsite in particular doesn't rep the ace very well given that he treys a bunch pf). If you're going to end up folding a lot of turns, it's probably the best play though.

    ~32:55 I defend the T3o.

    ~33:26 This is a spot where I like the turn bet with K-high, precisely because you can get called down so light on these boards.

    ~33:51 I'm going to stop commenting on these folds. There's some room for stylistic differences but I think as a general rule in HULHE, it's a mistake to fold too much pf as you have to be playing a really bad opponent in order to make up for it postflop. I do believe in defending a slightly tighter range than you open due to positional considerations.

    ~34:36 Good play with K-high. I like checking back the turn with some sd value. He had the trips this time but I think he would bluff river often enough for it to be a good call. The drawing hands that hit the 9 likely would have raised the flop.

    ~35:29 I actually fold the 82o pf. :-) Druff's line is standard imo.

    ~35:53 If Yebsite thinks he can play 82o profitably from the bb, I can't imagine what he's folding otb considering how often Druff gives up the bb.

    ~36:08 Agree that Druff is priced in to peel for the gs. If anyone reading this is relatively new to HULHE, it's a good idea to study up on implied odds as you'll be folding way too often if you make decisions based solely on what's currently in the pot.

    ~36:36 I like Druff's line when he pairs the J. A single diamond might semibluff turn or bluff river when missing, and Yeb may even bet out with pure air. I think it's an interesting turn spot from Yebsite's perspective. We know Druff spiked but he may be giving up a lot after Yeb called his flop c-bet so checking back the turn might not be too bad. By under-rep'ing his hand a bit and/or giving Druff a chance to catch a second best hand, he makes it more likely that he will at least get a river call.

    ~37:12 Yebsite folding a lot of btns lately. If it's the absolute bottom of his range I don't hate it, but I would be opening very wide given the game flow.

    ~38:25 This is a spot where I like to smooth call the flop and raise any non-diamond turn, which helps to insure that the majority of the money goes in when I have a clear equity edge and also gives Yebsite the opportunity to barrel the turn w/ his pure bluffs.

    ~39:15 Another flop I think you can pure bluff sometimes. It's not a big deal to pass up on these but I think if you only raise when you have something, your ranges become more transparent and you're also just missing out on an opportunity to somewhat offset your positional disadvantage.

    ~39:45 I don't really love Yeb's turn and river barrels. Turn is closer since he has absolutely no sd value and Druff tends to raise the flop when he likes his hand. On the river, he's turning marginal sd value into a bluff -- I like c/c better. Also, I raised the question earlier of how we mix up our pf 3! range. Do you guys think this is a good hand to sometimes trey with? My instinct is that since you always get called in LHE, your range should be merged rather than polarized, but again, it's not something I've really studied up on.

    ~40:12 I think we can bet bp some % of the time to keep our ranges balanced but generally I think it's better to induce. The majority of worse hands that call are draws, many of which have break-even or better equity anyway.

    ~42:25 I wonder about treying the smallest pp's pf. It seems like you always have break-even equity at best and you get in a lot of crappy spots postflop (although if you're going to bing sets on the turn, maybe it's not so bad). It seems close because if we keep the pot small we're making less of a mistake when we fold, but if we can build a pot and then take it down often with a c-bet then maybe that's better. Since Yebsite has been pretty aggressive in 3-bet pots, that might make a difference as well. In this case, Yeb's flop raise saved him half a bet but in general I think he's better off giving Druff a chance to barrel the turn, especially when playing IP.

    ~43:20 Regarding the commentary, I don't think domination is as big of a concern in HULHE as it is in big bet games because your RIO are limited. I also think if your opponent is capable of spewing postflop it increases your implied odds.

    ~43:53 Another situation where I think just calling the flop hoping to induce turn bluffs is better. If you're Druff here, something that you would have to be thinking about is how to counter these free card plays when you have better made hands or you improve on the turn.

    ~45:05 A pretty good example of bluff-raising oop. Yeb doesn't actually rep the ace very well so I think Druff can actually peel or re-bluff some % of the time, but obv part of the reason it's a good play is that it's hard to counter without playing looser or more aggressive than a lot of players are comfortable with.

  3. #3
    Cubic Zirconia themuppets's Avatar
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    Part 3: ~45:00 - 1:00:00

    ~ 45:24 The HHL flop is another candidate for a bluff-raise, although a rainbow texture is obv a little better. An interesting thing to note in a spot like this where we hold a hand like T8o is that when our bluff works, we aren't typically folding out a better hand, but it's still a good play if the alternative is to always c/f.

    ~ 46:00 Another situation where I will sometimes consider checking back the flop. To be clear, I don't think it's always a bad thing to just fold out your opponent's 6-outers and if they don't bluff often enough it's actually better. OTOH, I expect to get played back at on this flop some, and although there are some worse hands that call (usually with a decent number of outs), no better hands are folding.

    ~47:33 I like Druff's play in this hand. I'm not sure about Yebsite's turn trey, especially since he doesn't follow through on the river. I'm not sure it's a great spot anyway but if you are 3-betting light or semi-bluffing a draw there, it would seem like part of the point would be to fold out your opponent's missed draws and weaker pairs on the river.

    ~48:14 Strongly agree with Druff's flop cap and I think this is a good adjustment to Yeb's 3-betting and free card play behaviors. An interesting point to make is that if Yeb is alert to what's going on, he should now be planning to make this play later with his strong made hands.

    ~50:37 Another spot where I don't like Yeb's river bet with K high. Druff has a lot of Aces in his pf 3! range and I doubt he folds the chop either. Along the same lines, the K beats anything Druff would fold so you might as well just sd.

    ~51:44 A good flop raise by Druff w/ the fd. Typically good regardless given his equity in the hand but he should also have a lot of FE on this type of flop.

    ~53:29 I tend to smooth call flop here as well. We sometimes have the best hand UI and we preserve some implied odds, especially as we are playing IP. I'm interested in Yeb's 3-betting range. The gameflow may suggest to him that Druff is playing fit-or-fold on a lot of flops, in which case I think polarizing his range like this might be a good strategy.

    ~54:50 Most of my experience coming from the husngs, I don't know for sure about some of these pf spots when the betting isn't capped. I feel like maybe it's a little too transparent by the time Druff makes it 5 bets to go (notice Yebsite does end up just calling down a strong TPTK). I think maybe Druff can get more value by under-repping his hand pre, thus creating the opportunity for Yebsite to put in excessive action postflop.

    ~55:35 I don't really hate Druff's line. It's a spot where we have decent equity but our hand plays poorly on future streets (the best hand we can make puts a 4 str8 on the board and a lot of our outs can make even better hands for our opponent). I also agree it's kind of obv you often have a draw on this texture. In general, however, I think not having a lot of SD value argues in favor of the raise and so does the fact that we're oop (which somewhat reduces our implied odds). Also, the fact that we have a lot of equity means a flop raise isn't costing us much, even when missing the straight we can still rep hearts and a turn barrel will fold out a lot of OC peels regardless.

    ~57:16 Although I think his play overall in this hand is a little spewy (especially since I think he should now be anticipating more 4-bets and perhaps some turn leads from Druff as an adjustment to his FC plays), I do like his value bet on the river. I don't know if Druff has any 4x in his range at all and after he just calls the flop 3! and the turn, his range is weighted pretty strongly toward Ax hands. In this case, there's plenty of value in Druff's flop raise but I don't know how well it sets up the play on future streets.

    ~58:00 I like Druff's commentary on the pf adjustments he plans to make now that Yebsite seems to be 3-betting almost incessantly and this is one case where I don't disagree that tightening up your btn range a little is a viable strategy.

    ~59:42 I like the play of the ATo hand.

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    Part 4: ~1:00:00 - 1:30:00

    ~1:01:01 (J3o) I might have checked back the turn. The bet will maybe fold out some of the better Jacks but that's about it (plan for UI rivers might be an interesting discussion). Yeb's play is okay; he's played trips this way previously and he no doubt folds out a lot of better hands. I don't think he actually reps much, though, especially given the pf action. WRT to the idea that you'll get more action when you do make a hand: I tell myself the same thing in spots like these, but unless the opponent is blindly maniacal, the truth is that it's not especially good for us (it's hard to make hands on these textures, after all). I'm an auto-muck guy, btw, but even if I were to concede that there are times when it makes sense to show a bluff, I don't think Yeb should be showing at all given his style so far and the game flow in general.

    01:02:31 (A7o) Most of the play seems pretty standard here. I'm not so sure about Yeb's 4! pf, especially since Druff has only 3-bet 5 or 6 times so far. The river lead makes sense in general but given Yebsite's play so far, I might have been tempted to go for the c/r.

    01:03:21 (87s) OOP I'm going to raise the flop more often than not. Although I think it's okay to slow things down a little versus our more aggressive opponents, I also think it's a mistake to let them put us in a position where our play becomes overly cautious and straightforward. I wonder what you guys will think of this: I feel that given what we've seen from Druff so far, as well as the fact that the river completes any semi-bluffs he might have had on the turn, that Yebsite can safely fold the river w/ tp3k (!?!).

    01:04:18 (A5o) Even though Yebsite's river sexy works out, I'm not sure I love it. I think Druff is going to check back a lot of hands that will call a bet. Druff's value bet on the river is pretty thin but maybe not bad, and given the game flow I don't think he can consider folding to the raise. I do think there's a level 2 consideration here to the extent that we've previously seen Yebsite make the clarkmeister play with a complete wiff (also, he in general bets river with a lot of sd-able hands that other players would c/c), which makes his check somewhat suspicious. I'd be interested in hearing how others would play this river in Druff's spot.

    01:05:01 (53s) I like Yeb's flop trey here with a strong made hand. It's a good changeup given his previous actions. I don't mean to imply that I can find a fold here, but I think it's noteworthy that since Yebsite's flop trey has often been a FC play, his c-bet on the draw completing turn is pretty scary.

    01:05:34 (K3o) One thing about the turn raise is that Druff hasn't taken this c/c c/r line for value very often if at all, making it more likely that he gets called down. Given the texture and Yeb's wide range, however, I'm tempted to say it's a good rfsd since it charges all the draws, may fold some better Kings and sets up a new dynamic for future hands.

    01:05:52 (A3o) WRT to the pf trey, it seems to me we would like to keep some Aces in our range that just calls the bb, in part for deception but also because once we sd such a hand, it makes it harder for our opponent to assume we never have the Ace when we c/r oop. Postflop seems pretty standard on both sides.

    01:07:44 (QJs) Perhaps due to the pot size, Yebsite barrels the turn this time instead of taking the FC. A good balancing play on his part. It's hard to think of hand that Druff 4-bets pf, raises the flop with and then calls flop trey and turn barrel that a weak A-high can beat on the river. It's such a huge pot though. Would be interested to know if anyone thinks Yebsite can c/f.

    01:08:59 (KJo) It seems fine given how wide Yeb's ranges have been. I think I'm right in saying that on the river if we assume he's almost always losing to a 3-bet but can't fold due to the erratic nature of his opponent, then he needs to have the better hand a little less than 66% of the time? So it seems like there's value in it assuming Yeb calls off any pair. One thing to note about Yeb is he seems to be more LAG on the early streets. We've seen him make a few plays on the big bet streets but nothing like his pf and flop plays.

    01:09:34 (33) It's pretty hard to fold any pair in a 3-bet pot versus an aggressive opponent. Part of what we're seeing is how having an aggressive image helps you in HU -- OOH, if your bluffs are successful and your opponent isn't fighting back a lot, you're winning a lot of pots w/o a hand; OTOH, when you are hitting hands, you've made it almost impossible for your opponent to find any folds.

    01:10:56 (K8s) Pretty tight flop fold given what we've seen from Yebsite up to this point. I think if you go into a shell when it feels like the deck is hitting your opponent, it gives them the opportunity to capitalize on their momentum by going on these faux rushes.

    01:12:00 (K4o) I play it the same way, in part because of all the FC plays early in the match. Yeb's rebluff is probably good despite the results as Druff has very few hands that just call out of the bb and then somehow hit this flop.

    01:12:56 (A9o) Pretty impressed by the turn trey. Very nice hand.

    01:14:47 (Q5o) Another spot where I'm calling a lot more often than I'm raising, especially versus an opponent like Yeb who has been playing a really strong game IP. Even though it worked out, I think checking back the river is likely a mistake against Druff's overall range, especially since Yeb holds a T (reducing Druff's T9 and QT combos).

    01:17:00 (QQ) Again, just kind of curious how others would play these hands when there's no cap pf. Yeb has been very active, but I don't think he's blindly aggressive -- obv we want to maximize value but that somehow needs to be balances versus telegraphing our hand strength. Similarly, we've only seen Druff go for more than 4-bets when holding the very top of his range.

    01:18:23 (J9o) River is kind of close once we get that far and obv one reason for Yeb to fire again is to fold out exactly the type of hand Druff has. He can also have some missed draws himself and the high cards aren't as scary as they might be if he was a tigher opponent. It's also a pretty big pot. One thing that makes this decision tough versus Yeb is that we've seen him bet the river with K-high hands before. I could go either way on this one.

    01:19:00 (J8o) Pretty standard from both player's at this point in the match. I wouldn't 4! flop either as Yeb is oop (and therefore has no option of checking back the turn UI).

    01:19:53 (T9o) I think getting 5:1 from the pot, Druff is priced in to peel for his 6 outer. Remember that even 1 more big bet before the river is 2 more small bets, so you pretty much have more than enough implied odds always. As I would expect to get at least two big bets from Yebsite often, I think folding is actually a pretty bad mistake.

    01:20:47 (86o) I raise flop some % of the time. It's easy to get intimidated by a player who 3-bets so often IP but our equity is pretty good versus that range so it's not really costing us a ton of Sklansky bucks. In fact, given how wide Yeb's range is we should consider an occasional semi-bluffing 4-bet (maybe not with this particular hand), especially since we presumably plan to do this for value with our better made hands now. From Yeb's perspective, the turn decision is close. Although it might seem results oriented to say so, I think Druff's range is almost precisely weak draws since he raises either pf or flop with anything else. It's a bet imo.

    01:21:31 (A5o) Druff's play is fine (anyone still reading obv knows by now that I would check back turn a lot). I don't like Yeb's turn call or his river donk; he doesn't have good enough odds for the former and not enough FE for the latter. It might work better against me since I have more hands that fire the turn w/o any sd value, but that's also why it's good to mix up your play.

    01:22:26 (98s) This is a tough one. Part of the problem is that we haven't seen a lot of pots where the flop action just went bet/call. If we knew Yebsite always bet turn with his A and K high, then I think it would be pretty easy to say Druff should take a shot at the river. Conversely, if we knew he checked those hands back a lot, then a bluff would be less appealing. It's also kind of weird since even though it was 4! pf, after the turn checks through, Druff is only getting 5:1 on his bluff. Yet another problem is that it really doesn't seem like Druff reps much after just calling the flop -- otoh, his pf 3-betting range, while mixed, is still kind of bw heavy so I can't even decide if Yeb should be barreling his non-sd-able hands. I would def be interested in hearing opinions on this hand.

    01:23:52 (86o) I like checking back the flop here. I feel like the population tendency I see is that people usually donk-check the flop oop, it's kind of a wierd slowplay/trap. Obv this isn't always true but I'd rather catch something worth showing down before I put in any action.

    01:24:24 (AA) Probably not the best texture + action for a pure bluff.

    01:24:59 (A8o) I think Druff can check back turn even picking up the gs. Obv he has a lot of equity (esp. versus bottom pair!) but I def want to get to sd the first time I see somebody donk the flop. Also, I think the two most common things you run into are bp or a flopped draw. So you're either charging yourself to draw or playing into a monster. Yeb's turn sexy is interesting because if his reason for playing it that way is that he thinks Druff would have raised the flop w/ any decent pair or draw, then there's maybe some merit to it. Given the pf action, however, I think just c-betting hoping to get called by A-high is likely better.

    01:25:48 (A4o) Pretty spewy by Yebsite. Since he's IP this hand, I think Druff can consider just calling down from the 3-bet, thus giving Yebsite a chance to barrel the turn with his bluffs.

    01:26:24 (TT) It does seem like Yebsite tightens up postflop in these spots where we put in so many raises pre. It's kind of hard to judge since we've never slowplayed one of these premium pairs but I feel like we would often be getting 4.5 or more big bets total by playing them a little slower whereas this way we only get 4.

    01:27:07 (J9o) Hand is kind of standard. WRT the commentary, I agree with Druff that Yebsite's play is very strong if slightly too spewy in spots. He def wouldn't be my first choice in opponents.

    01:28:11 (86o) This hand sort of illustrates another reason I like to smooth call some of these hands, esp. bpwk. You sort of preserve your implied odds since you can raise the turn and win an extra half-bet over the flop raising line while simulataneously saving yourself from putting in too many bets when behind. Obv someone could point out that we're oop but we probably don't get 3 streets of value from a hand that checks back turn or river anyway.

    01:28:59 (44) Really curious about Yeb's river line. Might have been an okay play with a small diamond, given the action and Druff's tendencies.

    01:30:19 (QQ) Yeb's hand is overplayed again pf, esp. given Druff's ranges. I guess he hasn't seen all of these hands but given everything else I would feel pretty safe in assuming Druff is only putting in all that action with premium pairs (and perhaps AK) until he showed me otherwise. It's another spot where I would prefer a flop raise, not because of being oop this time, but because if we improve on the turn it will often kill our action and when we don't then most of the money is going in when we no longer have an equity edge. As played, I think Druff's 3-bet on the turn is great and I also like his decision to just call the 4-bet, especially since this is the first time we've seen Yeb put in all this action postflop following a raising war pre. I also think Druff is correct to just call the river.

  5. #5
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Very nice, muppets!

    I enjoy seeing the perspective on so many hands from someone who is presumably also an experienced limit player.

    I have not correlated all of the hands to the video yet, but it's been a very interesting read so far.

    In response to your general comment that I am playing too tight pre-flop, I generally hate playing complete trash from any position, and dislike a lot of below average hands from out of position.

    A hand like Q2o leaves me feeling like I am "playing with 1 card tied behind my back", as the 2 is useless both as a kicker and gets outdrawn so often (or is already behind) when it's my pair. The hand also has very little drawing value, and little showdown value. There are also so many flops that miss and require me to check-fold it. For example, the flop comes T74 rainbow, I might be ahead at the moment, but I can't call there for obvious reasons. I just hate hands like that out of position.

    With hands like 69o, I will call a little more often, and mix up calling and folding depending upon my mood and the opponent.

    I agree the K5o BB fold was too tight.

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    Cubic Zirconia themuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Very nice, muppets!

    I enjoy seeing the perspective on so many hands from someone who is presumably also an experienced limit player.
    Thanks.

    I guess I can say a little about myself since nobody here really knows anything about me: I've been playing OLP since 2005. Although I like to mix things up a little and have at least tried almost any type of game/format you can find online, it's fair to say the vast majority of my experience is in LHE. I don't know the exact dates for how this transiiton played out, but after focusing on FR games for a couple years, I eventually started experimenting with 6-max. After some more time passed, I noticed two things: my winrate was higher at 6m than fr, and it was even higher still when I only had one or two opponents at the table. Since I was never big on multi-tabling, this was a great discovery. Soon after that, I started studying HULHE and it's been my favorite game ever since.

    I would describe myself as a winning recreational player. Most of my experience is at the micros and small stakes levels and I don't always put in tons of volume. I was moving up through the HUSNGs pretty rapidly prior to Black Friday and starting to take things a little more seriously, but since then I've pretty much been forced to put any dreams of playing poker professionally on the back burner. Not too long ago, I cashed out pretty much everything I had online to help meet some RL expenses, but I plan to start playing again soon.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themuppets View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Very nice, muppets!

    I enjoy seeing the perspective on so many hands from someone who is presumably also an experienced limit player.
    Thanks.

    I guess I can say a little about myself since nobody here really knows anything about me: I've been playing OLP since 2005. Although I like to mix things up a little and have at least tried almost any type of game/format you can find online, it's fair to say the vast majority of my experience is in LHE. I don't know the exact dates for how this transiiton played out, but after focusing on FR games for a couple years, I eventually started experimenting with 6-max. After some more time passed, I noticed two things: my winrate was higher at 6m than fr, and it was even higher still when I only had one or two opponents at the table. Since I was never big on multi-tabling, this was a great discovery. Soon after that, I started studying HULHE and it's been my favorite game ever since.

    I would describe myself as a winning recreational player. Most of my experience is at the micros and small stakes levels and I don't always put in tons of volume. I was moving up through the HUSNGs pretty rapidly prior to Black Friday and starting to take things a little more seriously, but since then I've pretty much been forced to put any dreams of playing poker professionally on the back burner. Not too long ago, I cashed out pretty much everything I had online to help meet some RL expenses, but I plan to start playing again soon.
    Did you play on the Cryptologic network in 2005/2006?

    How high did you play online (on any site)?

  8. #8
    Cubic Zirconia themuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Did you play on the Cryptologic network in 2005/2006?

    How high did you play online (on any site)?
    The first year I played almost exclusively on UB. Eventually I created an FTP account and later a Stars account. IDK if you remember or not but FTP used to have a KGC logo on their front page (I think they switched to the AGCC as primary regulator later because KGC wasn't whitelisted in the UK, but I don't really know the details). Anyway, at some point I read up on the UB scandal and I thought it was a poor decision as a consumer to play on a site they were supposedly regulating, so I stopped playing there about the same time I was learning 6m. So I was playing Stars almost exclusively at that time. I was playing 2/4 when I switched to HULHE.

    When I started playing HUHU, I ofc started sitting all over the place and conveniently forgot my vow to never play on FTP again. Even with the HUSNGs, you start to get longer waits beginning at say $20 and up, especially once other regs stop sitting you. Anyway, I ended up putting in most of my action on FTP because they had the fastest structure and also infinitely spawning tables. This ofc turned out to be kind of tragic in the end...

    I had just started sitting the $100 HUSNGs and was planning on making the switch to HU cash when Black Friday rolled around.

    I likely could have moved up more over the years except I've never had any serious goals and it's been convenient (and sometimes necessary) to make occasional withdrawals.

    I did play on Carbon off and on over the past year and studied HU NLH SnGs for awhile since they don't offer the LHE HU SnG above the $23 level. And I also had money on Cake from before but eventually got it off there when I realized how insanely bad the withdrawal process was. I have played on SwC as well, including HU cash versus Micon. I thought he was a pretty tough opponent, similar in some ways to what we see from Yebsite in this video.
    Last edited by themuppets; 06-21-2012 at 06:21 AM.

  9. #9
    Cubic Zirconia themuppets's Avatar
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    Part 5: ~01:30:00 - 02:00:00

    01:32:07 (A5o) Pretty straightforward. I think from Yeb's perspective the turn is pretty close between bet and c/c, but I don't think he's wrong to think that a lot of floats and other draws will basically charge themselves, as we see here.

    01:32:30 (J5s) I like Druff's flop play, especially being oop and given Yeb's aggressive tendencies on the small streets. Kind of undecided about the river sexy. It's probably close to a wash since you can get extra value from any A as well as inducing a bluff from 64/67. OTOH, you allow a K to check back and you end up putting 3-bets in against spades. Druff may be right to think Yeb has more combos of air than most other players.

    01:33:26 (K7o) Yebsite can actually c-bet the flop for value. Most players are calling ATC on that flop. Yeb's check-back on the turn is kind of interesting. He may think Druff has few Aces and Kings in his range since he didn't trey pf, and therefore he wants to try and induce a river bet from everything else. On Druff's side, calling the river w/ K high is pretty standard.

    01:34:31 (Q7s) So at this point, I think Druff may be 3-betting a little too often considering how often he gets capped by Yeb and given his propensity to just give up on a lot of flops. Since a lot of player's in Yeb's spot would have A-high or a big King, you would bet the turn if you're Druff. Versus Yebsite, I don't think trying to induce a bluff is ever going to be a really bad idea and these check-backs are kind of a new thing from him so you're not really sure what to expect so I don't mind keeping the pot a bit smaller. Not sure about the river. If inducing was correct on the turn then I'm not sure improving to a better pair changes much. Yeb's river bluff is kind of hopeless I think. When you take an unusally line, people will tend to look you up and I honestly don't think Druff has lots of bluffs in his range, based both on his style in general and also the fact that he doesn't trey pre with random 9x or junky clubs.

    01:35:41 (J9o) I don't like Yebsite's flop lead. Against most opponents, there is typically little reason to ever play out of tempo in HULHE. In this hand, for example, I don't think we've ever seen Druff not c-bet a flop, so your bluff wins more money when you c/r -- and it also looks more like something you would do with an actual value hand. I guess I like Druff's flop raise. I think he's facing 3x or a single spade often, so it may not fold out too many hands, but it does work out well as a FC play. It's another spot where I think it's clearly a mistake to show the bluff if you're Yebsite -- he's basically giving free info about what his range for donking the flop looks like.

    01:37:44 (Q4s) It is worth noting that it went 3-bets pf and we're playing a guy who seemingly can have almost any random hand. With some marginal sd value, a bdsd and pair outs that are often live, I think we likely need to play here at least some % of the time. Given the way Druff's ranges are constructed, I'm thinking perhaps raise flop with a plan to check back non-improving turns, calling brick rivers UI. Might be more appealing if the spade on the flop was a club instead. A possible strat against a guy who 3-bets so widely is to limp/call pf, which allows you to play a little tighter on missed flops. It's rare that I actually take that line and I'll typically give it up if they are checking back at all, but it does work out well if you have a guy who will almost always raise your limps and hardly ever folds his bb anyway.

    01:38:39 (J7s) Another spot where we have 6 clean outs almost always and our J may even win an occasional sd. The bdfd doesn't hurt the hand any either. Folding is for sure the worst of our options.

    01:39:36 (QJo) By now, the fact that I can see all of Druff's hole cards is maybe allowing me to notice things that Yeb wouldn't have been sure of in-game. That having been said, I think Yeb can barrel this Ace turn all day long and expect Druff to fold nearly 100% of the time given that he just called the pf trey and did not raise the flop.

    01:40:35 (Q5s) I spent a lot of time thinking about Yebsite's flop line without ever coming to any conclusions. It reminds me more of the NL play where you check back a marginal made hand when you don't want to get blown off on the flop by a semi-bluff, a concept which isn't really applicable in LHE. But it might be an okay play for other reasons. I do like his value bet on the river as I don't think Druff is ever checking 7x or better.

    01:43:04 (QJo) Kind of mixed feelings about the 4! pre. I think it's a reasonable response to Yeb's frequent 3-betting except that we're helping to create these bloated pots that we're only winning when we happen to catch, which at the end of the day will never happen often enough. I think at this point, Druff should be thinking about an alternate strategy -- perhaps the limp/call thing, perhaps just always flatting the 3-bets or maybe doing something different postflop.

    01:43:51 (QJs) Somewhat noteworthy that Yebsite snap-folds this texture after we 4-bet pre, which might help us with the idea above about finding some winning postflop lines.

    01:44:26 (T7o) I think we should raise the flop some % of the time. Lots of HL combos will have trouble continuing and we know Yeb can have just random junk hands even when he 3-bets pre. Also, given the current game flow, Druff's range for raise/calling pre hits this board pretty well.

    01:44:50 (Q8o) Just a note that I think outs to 3rd pair are undervalued by some players, especially when you also have a high card hand and some backdoor draws. As an example, Druff would have over 40% equity here even against a conservative opening range of 80%.

    01:45:41 (JTo) So far Yebsite's flop donking range is pretty transparent, which is something to think about. A good changeup play for him now would be to donk/trey a strong made hand. Although he does sort of rep the spades coming in on the turn, I think it's a bad bluff after the flop action from Druff, which I think pretty strongly indicates a made hand that will sd (and if he has anything else ever it would be big spades). On the river, Yeb may feel like he has no choice but to follow through but given the gameflow I wouldn't expect Druff to be in any mood to fold 7h6h let alone a hand that he actually does 4! the flop with.

    01:46:27 (QQ) Just a note to mention that when I have a guy who can play back at me on a wide range of boards, I really like to have a lot of notes on his flop action. It's of interest, for example, that Yeb snap folds the K66tt, which might suggest to me it's not the type of board he will typically fight for when he wiffs.

    01:48:02 (AQo) I like this hand. One thing it illustrates is that you don't have to be winning versus a ton of combos to make a river call in HULHE. In this case, Druff is getting 9:1 on his call, meaning that he only has to be good 10% of the time to call off profitably.

    01:49:52 (T6o) One thing I've noticed about Yebsite is that he doesn't follow through on these bluffs when he makes an OOP raise on the turn. A lot of people will call one bet hoping to improve their weak pairs and obv any straight or flush draws are calling so once you've pulled the trigger, you're usually getting pretty good odds to follow thorugh. He also doesn't rep Aces or Kings very well given the pf action and a semi-bluff with 2x or 3x is more likley than the idea that he both defends 32o and also fails to raise the flop w/ it. From Druff's perspective, I think it's a good value bet against some players who just call with a lot of their draws, esp. since he's beating any other 4x that he wasn't already behind on the flop. It's kind of hard to judge versus Yebsite since we haven't seen him smooth call the flop very often.

    01:50:23 (86o) Yebsite should probably c-bet the flop w/ no sd value. I don't like his turn raise for a couple of reasons: (a) this board hits Druff's range for just calling the bb pretty hard, and (b) it's not believable that Yeb would check back the flop w/ a striaght draw.

    01:51:15 (QQ) Being IP, I think a play to consider is calling Yeb's 4! on the flop with a plan to raise any turn that doesn't complete the draws. This comment may seem results oriented but the idea behind it is that you get more bets in when your equity is higher and you can just call down if it's greatly diminished by the turn card.

    01:58:56 (54s) It's kind of weird because the way I play, I can raise the turn and barrel river profitably, but from Druff it would look pretty suspicious since he raises the flop w/ any hand he likes. So I guess what I'm saying is that w/ no sd value if he wants to play here he should probably just raise the flop.

    01:59:25 (KJo) This is kind of what I was talking about before wrt to jamming these hands pre and then never being able to realize our equity. Getting 7:1 on the turn, we can actually be calling with odds to improve and a non-zero chance that we will get to sd the best hand UI. I would fold if the turn had brought the 5 of diamonds, though.

  10. #10
    Bronze Yebsite's Avatar
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    wow can't believe you put this much effort into analyzing this... cliff notes: i was drunk towards the end 5 betting every hand and got lucky...
    Me defeating Druff 100 BB heads up - http://youtu.be/LmxTH0rZaLk?t=2h12m35s

  11. #11
    Cubic Zirconia themuppets's Avatar
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    It's actually a pretty interesting match to study because you have a "Hero" who plays a somewhat unorthodox HU style and a "Villain" who is sort of an early-street maniac (regardless of why you were playing that way), which is an opponent type that most people have a lot of trouble with. I'm not sure if I'm going to follow through on the last hour since I have some other things I need to focus on, but I def found the project worthwhile.

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