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Thread: Massive ACR-related PayPal chargeback scam taking place over last 2 days

  1. #1
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Massive ACR-related PayPal chargeback scam taking place over last 2 days

    I was informed yesterday morning about a PayPal chargeback scam being perpetrated against unsuspecting ACR players. Please beware.

    I do not want to post this individual's name yet, because the PayPal investigation is ongoing, and it can hurt people affected. I am not personally involved in this, though I did give advice to the victims.

    The perpetrator's initials are "M.P.". His screen name on ACR starts with "da" and ends with "79". If this individual attempts any financial dealings or trades with you, REFUSE TO DO SO.

    The scam was as follows:

    M.P. was a part of a 2,000-member Facebook poker group, and frequently did Paypal-for-ACR transfers with people there, for 1-to-1 exchange. This was attractive to people who wanted quick cashouts, as you would send M.P. your ACR funds and get the equivalent amount back on PayPal.

    M.P. did have one notable blemish on his record. A few months ago, he started doing chargebacks on PayPal. However, he blamed it on his wife, whom he claimed didn't understand the charges on their bank statement for the PayPal transfers, and erroneously reported it as fraud. Most people bought this explanation, and continued trading with him, supposedly without issue.

    Two days ago, M.P. got into a (likely manufactured) argument with someone in the group, who was questioning why M.P. hadn't yet sent him the $50 that was owed. M.P. pretended to be so insulted that he said he would charge back the entire amount ($31,782) collectively traded with the group over the past 3 months.

    He then proceeded to do so.

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    Countless people have shown up to the group to post the PayPal chargeback messages they got. Some were charged back for transfers as low as $10, while others suffered losses of near $1000.

    This was clearly an intentional scam (presumably because M.P. went busto), and not an emotional overreacton to feeling insulted. Scammers often manufacture phony reasons to "punish" their victims, so as to make their victims feel as if they somehow caused the situation. This is straight outta the Scammer 101 playbook.

    If you were a victim of this, or any other PayPal related poker/gambling chargeback scam, call PayPal, tell them IMMEDIATELY about being a victim of a chargeback scam, and explain that the individual requested money via another service, and they sent you PayPal in exchange (which is what happened here).

    If you know there were multiple victims, DEFINITELY tell PayPal about this, as they will be much more likely to believe you. This is a common scam which PayPal is used to handling.

    DO NOT MENTION POKER OR GAMBLING, or it may complicate things. Simply stick to the (true) story that you were asked to send him money using another service, in exchange for Paypal, and now he's charging it back.

    When PayPal suspects gambling transactions (even legal ones), they will freeze the money for 6 months, and close the account.

    Also, if you were a victim of this, report the situation to ACR.

    Please do not post this guy's name here, until the PayPal investigation is complete.

  2. #2
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Also, it is important to know that PayPal is a poor choice for these sort of things, for exactly this reason.

    If someone wants to trade funds with you for poker chips, insist they put CASH (not a check) into a bank account, as that is irreversible.

    Either that, or deal with bitcoin, which is also irreversible.

    Do NOT accept any form of electronic payment (even electronic wires/EFT payments), do NOT accept checks or money orders, do NOT accept cashier's checks, and do NOT accept other poker room chips unless you REALLY KNOW AND TRUST the person.

    Also, if there is ANY red flag from their past -- even one with a seemingly logical explanation -- steer clear, unless you get cash or bitcoin from them.

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    Gold Salty_Aus's Avatar
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    I got shafted for just over a thousand dollars by Paypal/eBay about six years ago... and have refused to use Paypal ever since.

    From my limited experiences with Paypal he's probably going to get away with this as it's gambling related. Law enforcement for those in the USA will likely not be interested in looking into this for the same reason.

    You're perfectly correct Todd, he's shifting the blame and I'm inclined to think this was a con right from the beginning.

    Hope I'm wrong.

  4. #4
    I have a couple close friends that got scammed for a total of around $1.8k from this guy.

    Funny enough, this same facebook group that you speak of is the same group I got kicked out of for outing scammer PETE HESSE

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    Gold Salty_Aus's Avatar
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    As I said, I hope I'm wrong.

    I'm assuming you need to give a reason to Paypal for them to charge-back a transfer, if he for example says to Paypal he was supposed to receive cash on a poker site for all of these transfers, and now claims funds were transferred and have since been reversed. Paypal is likely to not investigate further and pay him the cash. Or he comes up with some other story that makes it known he was to receive poker funds that have since been taken from him.
    Using this scenario his account will be frozen for a while, but in the end he gets the $.

    Soon as an illegal poker site is mentioned I feel they will not investigate further, less LE take some action which is unlikely.
    Also if he used a CC to send money to all of these folks, CC provider is likely to approve a charge-back on all transactions for the last 90 days if he says he was cheated and his poker funds were taken.
    Last edited by Salty_Aus; 12-07-2016 at 10:42 PM.

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    Cubic Zirconia
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    How are you meant to report this to PP when they ban accounts if they find out you are using them to transfer $ into or out of US facing poker sites ,is that not the case ,I know of one person complained about unfair reversal an account closed ? And why did PP even let a massive amount of reverses happen over such a long time period with so many people ? seems that they need to answer a few questions -End of day Poker people PLEASE just gt your shit sorted and use a BitCoin to manage bankroll or for p2p trades !

  7. #7
    Cubic Zirconia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty_Aus View Post
    As I said, I hope I'm wrong.

    I'm assuming you need to give a reason to Paypal for them to charge-back a transfer, if he for example says to Paypal he was supposed to receive cash on a poker site for all of these transfers, and now claims funds were transferred and have since been reversed. Paypal is likely to not investigate further and pay him the cash. Or he comes up with some other story that makes it known he was to receive poker funds that have since been taken from him.
    Using this scenario his account will be frozen for a while, but in the end he gets the $.

    Soon as an illegal poker site is mentioned I feel they will not investigate further, less LE take some action which is unlikely.
    Also if he used a CC to send money to all of these folks, CC provider is likely to approve a charge-back on all transactions for the last 90 days if he says he was cheated and his poker funds were taken.
    I thought they PP just closed both accounts as soon as you mention real $ poker sites !

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    Gold Salty_Aus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostinpoker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty_Aus View Post
    As I said, I hope I'm wrong.

    I'm assuming you need to give a reason to Paypal for them to charge-back a transfer, if he for example says to Paypal he was supposed to receive cash on a poker site for all of these transfers, and now claims funds were transferred and have since been reversed. Paypal is likely to not investigate further and pay him the cash. Or he comes up with some other story that makes it known he was to receive poker funds that have since been taken from him.
    Using this scenario his account will be frozen for a while, but in the end he gets the $.

    Soon as an illegal poker site is mentioned I feel they will not investigate further, less LE take some action which is unlikely.
    Also if he used a CC to send money to all of these folks, CC provider is likely to approve a charge-back on all transactions for the last 90 days if he says he was cheated and his poker funds were taken.
    I thought they PP just closed both accounts as soon as you mention real $ poker sites !
    I think they freeze the account for a few months, then close the account... but you get any cash in your account when it's closed.

    Think the 3 month freeze is to avoid any chance they get stung by a CC charge-back which is 90 days.
    Last edited by Salty_Aus; 12-09-2016 at 03:30 AM.

  9. #9
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty_Aus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lostinpoker View Post
    I thought they PP just closed both accounts as soon as you mention real $ poker sites !
    I think they freeze the account for a few months, then close the account... but you get any cash in your account when it's closed.

    Think the 3 month freeze is to avoid any chance they get stung by a CC charge-back which is 90 days.
    When your account is closed for gambling, there is no appeals process, and it is placed into a status called "limited".

    There is no way out of being limited. Your money is frozen for 6 months (not 3), but can be withdrawn after that time period.

    During those 6 months, the only thing you can do is refund people who are within in the refunding time period.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    So apparently PayPal is transferring the burden of this to the banks, which is unfair since PayPal was the one who processed the transaction.

    Basically, if a chargeback occurs at the bank level, PayPal automatically honors it, determines whether they think it's valid, and report back to the bank. If the bank agrees that it was fraud, they give the money back to PayPal, who gives it back to you. If the bank does not agree it was fraud, you are fucked.

    However, if fees were paid as part of the transaction (basically if it's sent as a purchase, not a a money transfer), then PayPal will cover it, provided that they gave you the "OK to ship" message at some point prior to the chargeback.

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    Gold Salty_Aus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    So apparently PayPal is transferring the burden of this to the banks, which is unfair since PayPal was the one who processed the transaction.

    Basically, if a chargeback occurs at the bank level, PayPal automatically honors it, determines whether they think it's valid, and report back to the bank. If the bank agrees that it was fraud, they give the money back to PayPal, who gives it back to you. If the bank does not agree it was fraud, you are fucked.

    However, if fees were paid as part of the transaction (basically if it's sent as a purchase, not a a money transfer), then PayPal will cover it, provided that they gave you the "OK to ship" message at some point prior to the chargeback.
    Doubt the banks will even do basic investigations, soon as they realize funds are associated with a US facing poker site they will approve a chargeback.
    If this scammer says I did some transfers with players and then ACR robbed me of my entire account balance they will auto chargeback IMO.
    Think it all depends on what story the scammer tells his bank, and we all know scammers know the system and they're great liars usually.
    They might do basic investigations with the players who transferred, but if he says ACR robbed him they will not even communicate with an illegal poker site to prove or disprove the facts.
    UIEGA is also a factor, indirectly funding unlawful internet gambling is probably something the banks will try and avoid.
    ACR might do something, but we all know that money is already long gone.

  12. #12
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty_Aus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    So apparently PayPal is transferring the burden of this to the banks, which is unfair since PayPal was the one who processed the transaction.

    Basically, if a chargeback occurs at the bank level, PayPal automatically honors it, determines whether they think it's valid, and report back to the bank. If the bank agrees that it was fraud, they give the money back to PayPal, who gives it back to you. If the bank does not agree it was fraud, you are fucked.

    However, if fees were paid as part of the transaction (basically if it's sent as a purchase, not a a money transfer), then PayPal will cover it, provided that they gave you the "OK to ship" message at some point prior to the chargeback.
    Doubt the banks will even do basic investigations, soon as they realize funds are associated with a US facing poker site they will approve a chargeback.
    If this scammer says I did some transfers with players and then ACR robbed me of my entire account balance they will auto chargeback IMO.
    Think it all depends on what story the scammer tells his bank, and we all know scammers know the system and they're great liars usually.
    They might do basic investigations with the players who transferred, but if he says ACR robbed him they will not even communicate with an illegal poker site to prove or disprove the facts.
    UIEGA is also a factor, indirectly funding unlawful internet gambling is probably something the banks will try and avoid.
    ACR might do something, but we all know that money is already long gone.
    I'm often a pessimist in these situations, but I think there is a fair chance that the bank will deny the chargebacks.

    You're correct that the bank is unlikely to contact ACR, but PayPal may not even mention gambling. Even if the scammer blames it on gambling an a scam against HIM, PayPal's conclusion that HE was the scammer won't be a good look for him.

    I have a feeling that if PayPal tells the bank they determined he was scamming and give some simply reasons why (such as his chargebacks against 50-100 people on the same day, and him not noticing some of these charges for 3 months prior to these chargebacks), I can see the bank denying him.

    BTW, when Full Tilt went down, I had just charged $1500 on my Wells Fargo to deposit there. I was one of the unlucky few they were able to actually charge the bank account (remember, for a long time they didn't have a payment processor, but somehow they did for me.)

    My charge was on 4/9/11, and 6 days later Black Friday hit.

    When it became clear that Full Tilt had likely stolen the money, I put in a claim with Wells Fargo for the $1500 back.

    They denied me, claiming I knew what I was doing when I charged it, and it was my risk.

  13. #13
    Gold Salty_Aus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty_Aus View Post

    Doubt the banks will even do basic investigations, soon as they realize funds are associated with a US facing poker site they will approve a chargeback.
    If this scammer says I did some transfers with players and then ACR robbed me of my entire account balance they will auto chargeback IMO.
    Think it all depends on what story the scammer tells his bank, and we all know scammers know the system and they're great liars usually.
    They might do basic investigations with the players who transferred, but if he says ACR robbed him they will not even communicate with an illegal poker site to prove or disprove the facts.
    UIEGA is also a factor, indirectly funding unlawful internet gambling is probably something the banks will try and avoid.
    ACR might do something, but we all know that money is already long gone.
    I'm often a pessimist in these situations, but I think there is a fair chance that the bank will deny the chargebacks.

    You're correct that the bank is unlikely to contact ACR, but PayPal may not even mention gambling. Even if the scammer blames it on gambling an a scam against HIM, PayPal's conclusion that HE was the scammer won't be a good look for him.

    I have a feeling that if PayPal tells the bank they determined he was scamming and give some simply reasons why (such as his chargebacks against 50-100 people on the same day, and him not noticing some of these charges for 3 months prior to these chargebacks), I can see the bank denying him.

    BTW, when Full Tilt went down, I had just charged $1500 on my Wells Fargo to deposit there. I was one of the unlucky few they were able to actually charge the bank account (remember, for a long time they didn't have a payment processor, but somehow they did for me.)

    My charge was on 4/9/11, and 6 days later Black Friday hit.

    When it became clear that Full Tilt had likely stolen the money, I put in a claim with Wells Fargo for the $1500 back.

    They denied me, claiming I knew what I was doing when I charged it, and it was my risk.
    If enough people copy the Facebook posts and forward this with the complaint just maybe.
    That evidence just about negates any story he can tell.

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