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Thread: Doug Polk (WCGRider) and Ben86 (Ben Tollerene) have big fight on 2+2, Doug refers to high stakes PLO software tool

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Doug Polk (WCGRider) and Ben86 (Ben Tollerene) have big fight on 2+2, Doug refers to high stakes PLO software tool

    Funny enough, the biggest story in this whole bitch fight is the fact that Doug casually mentions Ben was using a "new software tool" to win at high stakes PLO.

    You'll find it around the 12 minute mark of Doug's 32-minute rant. Oddly, Doug doesn't call out Ben for cheating with that tool, yet spends over half an hour bashing him for much more minor transgressions.


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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Here is the clusterfuck thread about it:

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...spute-1627174/

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    For those of you who don't have 32 minutes to listen to this mostly boring, rambling video, here are the cliffs:

    - Doug and Ben became friends in 2013, and agreed to swap coaching. Doug was the better NL player, Ben was the better PLO player.

    - As part of the coaching deal, they agreed to trade action of each other in the game they were coached. So Doug now had a piece of Ben in NL, and Ben had a piece of Doug in PLO. (around 6:30 mark)

    - Doug started off coaching Ben at NL. (around 8:30 mark)

    - When it came time for Ben to coach Doug, he claimed he "couldn't do it anymore", thus violating their agreement. (around 9:40 mark)

    - Ben's reason was that he was using a new piece of software to win at high stakes PLO (now derisively referred to by others as the "PLO Dream Machine"), and therefore could not share his secrets, due to the huge advantage this piece of software gave. Oddly, Doug does not criticize Ben for using this cheating tool, but only criticizes him for welching on their deal! (around 12 min mark)

    - For unknown reasons, Doug forgave Ben for this, and they both loan Isildur 150k together, with the agreement that each would have a piece AGAINST Isildur when they played him. So this was kind of a weird loan arrangement.... they were loaning someone money with the expectation of later beating him for that same money. How were they expecting Isildur to pay the money back in that case? This is not explained. (around 10:20 mark)

    - Doug played Isildur at NL and "forgot" that Ben had some of the action in the match, and "wrote him out of the action". However, Ben e-mailed him the next day and claimed that he should have had action, which Doug agreed to. Oddly, Doug had LOST that match, so Ben OWED him money. Why did Ben e-mail him claiming a piece of action in a losing session? This is not clear. (around 10:20 mark)

    - Doug played Isildur again, this time in PLO. It appears that the above action-exchange against Isildur was already over by then (not stated but implied), but recall that Doug and Ben agreed to that original action exchange whenever Doug played PLO (even though Doug never got the coaching). Doug decided that they still had action, and again lost to Isildur. He came to Ben to collect the money, and Ben was angry, claiming that they did not have a standing agreement to exchange action anymore (perhaps because he never coached him? I don't know). (around 11:10 mark)

    - 6 months later, Ben sat with Doug heads up at 500/1000 Cap NL. Doug was insulted, because he had shared his entire cap strategy with Ben (during the coaching), making him vulnerable. He refused to play and got angry at Ben. On 2+2, Ben denied that Doug coached him in Cap strategy, but Doug says that's a lie. (around 12 min mark)

    - There was a blowup at a bar where Ben yelled at Doug various times, including saying that he "hated people who look like you". Ben later clarified that he was bullied back in school, and the people who bullied him looked like Doug. Ben was also insulted that, many months earlier, Doug wouldn't wait outside in a long line in the cold to get into a Vancouver bar (lol). (around 22 min mark)

    - Ben talked shit to Doug about both Phil Galfond and Don Nguyen while the two were friends. (around 17 min mark)

    That's pretty much it.

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    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    I watched what I could tolerate of this video yesterday since it's a longer then it needed to be. He could have easily done a 8 minute version with just the details of what went on instead of their entire history of hanging out, business dealings such as a loan to Isildur,etc...

    What Ben86 did was scummy. It's clearly obvious Doug would not just coach him for free in NL without financial gain. Since Ben didn't need staking for training because he was crushing PLO already they agreed to trade NL for PLO coaching which seems fair but Ben finds out from the maker of this tool that he can't share it with Doug.

    Perhaps Doug was naive a bit if Ben clearly told him he wasn't for sure he could share this tool with him and Doug trained him anyway but I'm sure Doug felt confident enough from what Ben told him that they would be able to make this deal happen.

    The 2+2 thread is horrible like most of the threads are over there with the only interesting thing is Ben coming in early then leaving saying he don't want to discuss it anymore.

    Ben probably feels it's a lose lose situation since he's not going to win over the Doug fan boys, which he has way more then Ben does.

    For Ben to sit Doug after he coached him in cap NL is scummy. Ben claims he didn't receive cap NL coaching by Doug but whether it happened or it didn't I think he would have been best to just stay out of Doug's way after the fall out then this might not have became public.

    In regards to the poker tool their are tons of them out there that cost big amounts of money. It really depends what it all did because if it's just an advanced after session study program then I don't see a problem with it. The biggest problem in poker is extreme huds that basically make your mind up for you with ease which is what the sites were trying to combat against. You can have certain basics on Stars but some of these huds were giving a player way too much info to play making it easy to play the most optimal.

  5. #5
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The relevant 2+2 posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by WCGRider
    I tried to have this conversation with you 2 years ago. But you ignored a very well thought out message I sent you detailing the events that happened and instead responded a day later with "I can't deal with this". Didn't hear back from you a single time since then.

    Oh wait, I did hear back from you! A year later when you sat me at 500/1k cap.

    What kind of psychopath behaves like that, I teach you the baseline for my view into No Limit, talk to you about a bunch of concepts, and then you try to go after me at the highest stakes on the internet 9 months later.

    Ben you are a scumbag and many people know it. You have a lot of friends that are truly great people (Don, Jakoon, Galfond, etc) but it is absolutely disgusting to me that you let on that you are a nice guy with how horrible of a person you truly are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben86
    Alright I guess we're doing it. Here's what happened, this was about 4 years ago. Doug moves to my building in Van and we hangout a couple times and talk about swapping NL and PLO coaching. I am interested, I think it's a good idea. Doug coaches me first, I think about 4 sessions and half of that focused on a hu match. I sell him a piece and we do really well. I tell him I have to talk to my partner in PLO (who is on his way out of poker) before we can talk PLO. The guy I did all of my work with. I am confident that since my partner is leaving poker and we have done extremely well together that there is no way sharing with Doug will be a problem, and I'm thinking he will get pieces of the action so this is just positive for everyone. My partner surprises me and says no. I have to respect it, so I apologize to Doug and say I can't do it. I still did let him sweat me a few times and we talked a little about PLO, but nothing great. I admit he got shorted, and it was not my intention. I sincerely thought it would be fine and once my partner said no I had no options.

    We are fine after this. Doug doesn't bring up having an issue with it, I think he made like 70k and understood my intentions and what happened. Then we go out drinking one night, it's late and we're wasted. Doug starts giving his #1 in the world speech and I tell him I don't agree, his sample is too small, etc. We argue for a while and he eventually breaks down and get's really upset. We talk it out until about 5AM in his room, hug each other, and we're cool. I wake up the next morning to an essay on Skype about why we cannot be friends anymore. Given that I already didn't like being around Doug very much, I thought ok fine we aren't friends anymore and left it at that. We had another deal at this time which he unilaterally closed with absolutely no right to do so, but I didn't say anything because being done with Doug was agreeable.

    A year later I sit him at CAPNL because I'm a pro poker player and I think I can beat him. He sits out. Then in Vegas we are both playing the 100k at Bellagio and he walks up to me and goes "so sitting me at the ole 500/1k eh?" I said yeah, and then he said something that I can't remember along the lines of "that's kind of ****ty". (Doug and I never talked CAPNL strat). I suggest we talk and he says "no I'm good". So again I'm just content to have no Doug relationship. Apparently he held a grudge.

    I don't think anyone in the entire HS community other than you thinks those things about me and you're way out of line talking like that. Please tell me who these people are. Tell me what horrible things I've done. I've never cheated or scammed anyone. I've had business relationships and done 6-7 figure transactions and balances with most of the nosebleed community and never had a problem with anyone (other than you).
    Quote Originally Posted by WCGRider
    There is quite a long story behind this from both of us.

    I am also far from claiming I behaved perfectly, I can see how this thread is going and people have this way of conveniently forgetting their errors that they made.

    I made 2 mistakes in the way I handled business with Ben.

    My first mistake was I gave him a piece of a game when I had to make a decision that he did not want. We had just agreed to a deal and it was outside of it, but I didn't want him to think I was writing him out of action.

    It turns out he did not want the piece and I should not have made that decision for him (However as many high stakes players know, when someone sits you and you have to decide, it puts you in a tough situation.)

    Second, there was a session where I did not give Ben a piece where he was entitled to a piece. We had a prior deal that included he should of had the action, and before the session I told him he did not have the piece when he had every right to it. He realized my mistake and brought it to my attention, and we corrected the error. (Funny enough this meant he owed me some money but the point remains I was in the wrong here.)

    But comparing that to the way I was treated by Ben, is just absurd. With regards to both our business and personal relationships, he showed a disrespect to me I have never seen from anyone.

  6. #6
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with BeerAndPoker's take, but here are my thoughts:

    1) Clearly Ben fucked over Doug by not sticking to his end of the deal with the coaching. To receive valuable NL coaching from a great player, and then to come back with, "LOL sorry, can't coach you in PLO after all" is a joke. Straight up screwed him here. Hard to put a monetary value on it, but it was really shitty.

    2) Ben sitting Doug in 500/1K Cap NL is bad form, but nobody forced Doug to play him. Doug could have (and did) sit out if he didn't feel comfortable because of the coaching situation, so I don't really understand the huge deal here. It's not like Ben sat him using an unknown account.

    3) I didn't understand why Doug called out Ben for talking needless shit about Galfond and Don Nguyen, only to repeat those bashes publicly, thereby talking PUBLIC shit about both of those (uninvolved) guys. Shitty move by Doug, bashing two innocent people and blaming it on the original person who talked shit about them privately.

    4) The personal stories involving their bar antics are just kinda weird, and honestly didn't have a place in this video, especially because they don't involve anything too scandalous or terrible. So, yeah, if we believe they're true, apparently Ben was bullied in school and has social problems. And apparently Ben lashed out at Doug once because he reminded him of the bullies he used to deal with in high school. Even if Doug did nothing wrong to warrant these freak-outs by Ben, they really had no place in this story, and just made the whole thing drag out.

    5) I am curious as to why Doug couldn't find even one minute to comment on the software tool used by Ben to supposedly crush high stakes PLO. He's cool with that? If it's anything beyond a standard HUD (and it appears to be, given Ben's secrecy about it), I consider that cheating, and I'm surprised Doug doesn't. Does Doug use similar tools, perhaps?

    6) I'm still confused about the "two mistakes" Doug confesses to regarding Isildur. How did he "write Ben out" of the action if he "forgot" Ben had a piece? Wouldn't he just have forgotten to notify Ben? It sounds more like he made a conscious decision to write Ben out (why?), Ben found out Doug played Isildur, objected, and then received the LOL news that Doug actually lost thus he now OWED Doug money. And the second situation... how can Doug just decide whether or not Ben has action in a given PLO match? Even Doug admits in his written account that it was "outside the scope of their agreement", so how could he force Ben to take action after he loses? Shaaaaaaaady, and somehow most dopes on 2+2 aren't really focusing on this.

    Bottom line: Neither look too good here.

  7. #7
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    Phil Galfond and Ben Tollerene are good friends is most likely why Doug said what he did.

    Someone should ask what this special dream machine software does specifically? Ben states that Doug ghosted him as he played a bit so if Doug saw this tool in action then he should be able to provide at least some info on it from what he saw.

  8. #8
    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    You missed the best part. Based off of what he says and I agree even a few hours of coaching at this level is worth maybe 100s of thousands of dollars (potentially millions?? in the right games)



    (skip to 58:40)
    Last edited by chinamaniac; 09-04-2016 at 08:36 PM.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    That's hilarious. That video above was from October 2015.

    So basically he's admitting his few hours with Polk were super-valuable, and yet he refused to do it back for the guy in return.



    What a piece of shit.

    With that said, it's hard to feel too sorry for Doug, given the weird shit he did with arbitrarily selecting times for Ben to have pieces of his action.

  10. #10
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Here is a video by Alix Martin of a program which is supposedly a precursor to the PLO Dream Machine, which he is said to have developed and given/sold to Ben86.


  11. #11
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    Haralabob tweeting at Doug about this:


  12. #12
    I barely found the thread on four. I was almost finished with page one of the thread and I was thinking to myself. Oh shit this might be it, they are going to spill the beans on the software. Clicked to one of the later pages, all software talk. Time to go in deep.


    Ha I always get a kick out of Druff downplaying the possibility of GTO software.

    Edit: NDA protecting the software haha. Maybe next time.
    Exclusive GTO type software = steroids in pro sports. Damn right they're using em.

    What's surprising is the value they place on coaching among experienced top players.
    What's WTG going to show Ben86 in nlhe that just blows his mind and unlocks doors? A river bluff, three betting light, raising suited connectors. Ohhh WTG you fold to a shove, omg cha ching, I never thought of that. wtf


    Something's not adding up, it's like they have to be sharing specific tendencies on specific high stakes opponents or they're really sharing new software algorithms, settings, updating their source code or databases on their customizable "dream software".

    Why couldn't he coach PLO without his secret software involved? It's like they both knew it wasn't worth doing without the software without even discussing it, hmmm. He was pissed when Ben sat in the 500/1000k cap game w him, like hey you're really trying to use my exclusive gto software against me. I dunno something's odd imo

     
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      LarryLaffer: i think it more compares to "electronic doping" that we're seeing in cycling. motors in the hubs of the wheels
    Last edited by FPS_Russia; 09-06-2016 at 02:21 AM.

  13. #13
    Plutonium Brittney Griner's Clit's Avatar
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    Love all things haralabob and generally find Doug Polk annoying but haralabob is more out of line with those tweets than Polk was to defend himself. This Tollerene dude is pure psycho IMO. Bob must have bought pieces of Tollerene along the way that led to a personal relationship which resulted in him feeling sorry for him. Maybe along the same lines as Bob always having a super duper soft take on Chino Rheem due to them having a personal relationship even though Chino tried to Chino him for 5 figures. There is an interview somewhere where Bob laughs his ass off over a story about Chino running out of his room in attempt to steal 10,000-100,000 from him. Can't remember the exact number or where that interview is.
    Take me down to the Parvati City where the reps are green and the girls are pretty. Take me home.

    STILL the most posts deleted. STILL the FBI is harassing me. STILL double the reputation of any poster. STILL quadruple the rep/post ratio of any poster. STILL BGC.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brittney Griner's Clit View Post
    Love all things haralabob and generally find Doug Polk annoying but haralabob is more out of line with those tweets than Polk was to defend himself. This Tollerene dude is pure psycho IMO. Bob must have bought pieces of Tollerene along the way that led to a personal relationship which resulted in him feeling sorry for him. Maybe along the same lines as Bob always having a super duper soft take on Chino Rheem due to them having a personal relationship even though Chino tried to Chino him for 5 figures. There is an interview somewhere where Bob laughs his ass off over a story about Chino running out of his room in attempt to steal 10,000-100,000 from him. Can't remember the exact number or where that interview is.
    It was from a Poker Road episode, when Bob and Scott Huff used to do a show. The site went down like Joe Sebok's trousers in front of a mirror, so I can't find it.

    Also, BREAKING: doing biz with other poker players is usually -EV.
    http://www.miraclecovers.com

    "Donk down, thatís what you say to someone after they have lost 28K straight?" - Phil Hellmuth, online

  15. #15
    A separate thread about the so called "dream software" is blowing up on 4. That Ben86 is a creepy dude. WCG's ok in my book.

    I knew someone was going to step up and do damage control for the dream team.
    Dream team rep kaby from 2p2 is going to give a press conference soon.
    Name:  65962830.jpg
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    There you have it folks. It's not cheating they just work harder than everyone else.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by FPS_Russia; 09-07-2016 at 05:35 PM.

  16. #16
    Plutonium Brittney Griner's Clit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shizzmoney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brittney Griner's Clit View Post
    Love all things haralabob and generally find Doug Polk annoying but haralabob is more out of line with those tweets than Polk was to defend himself. This Tollerene dude is pure psycho IMO. Bob must have bought pieces of Tollerene along the way that led to a personal relationship which resulted in him feeling sorry for him. Maybe along the same lines as Bob always having a super duper soft take on Chino Rheem due to them having a personal relationship even though Chino tried to Chino him for 5 figures. There is an interview somewhere where Bob laughs his ass off over a story about Chino running out of his room in attempt to steal 10,000-100,000 from him. Can't remember the exact number or where that interview is.
    It was from a Poker Road episode, when Bob and Scott Huff used to do a show. The site went down like Joe Sebok's trousers in front of a mirror, so I can't find it.

    Also, BREAKING: doing biz with other poker players is usually -EV.

    I should have saved you the time. I looked for a while. Finally got to a couple sites where you could pay for that episode. But that's it.
    Take me down to the Parvati City where the reps are green and the girls are pretty. Take me home.

    STILL the most posts deleted. STILL the FBI is harassing me. STILL double the reputation of any poster. STILL quadruple the rep/post ratio of any poster. STILL BGC.

  17. #17
    partial archive of BPS at archive.org, but not the Bob ep where he tells the Chino story, so here's the transcript from 4.

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=361

    VOULGARIS: I have a funny Chino story.

    HUFF: Let's hear it.

    VOULGARIS: Chino is kinda of known for being... I mean, there are... when I first was around poker, you'd hear, 'Ah man, I got Chino'd, which was someone ripping you off, basically.'

    HUFF: [laughs] That's-

    VOULGARIS: And they would be, 'I got Chino'd.'

    HUFF: Okay, story checks out.

    VOULGARIS: But the thing about Chino is that Chino is such a good guy, but like a lot of people, gambling brings out the worst and he was a sick one. And he couldn't help himself.

    [a beat]

    So anyways, Chino dealt... I played some guy up in the room, a heads-up match in the room, and we paid Chino to deal. So I paid... I agreed to give Chino $5,000-

    HUFF: This... this... sorry, I don't want to interrupt here, but I gotta ask questions about this story. So you know there's a guy who is kind of a sick one, who has had burglary-

    VOULGARIS: No, he was the dealer.

    HUFF: I know, but I'm saying... but you're having him deal.

    VOULGARIS: Yeah, he's not going to do anything bad.

    HUFF: Right.

    VOULGARIS: He's just trying-

    HUFF: Okay, I'm just asking.

    VOULGARIS: He's just trying to make money.

    HUFF: Okay.

    VOULGARIS: And another thing, when I stayed at the Bellagio that time -- I lived there from February '05 to, like, May '05 -- I actually had to change my name on the room and give my fake name to other people. Because guys like Chino would call me all the time, asking me to stake them in games. I made the mistake when I was first starting out, I saw this one down-on-his-luck dude who was, like, asleep in the sports book. And I managed his money for him and put him in the games and, like, put him in the $10/20 no-limit game and took the money when he won and held on to it. And I gave him a little bit of money everyday to live. Because the guy was a sick one, right? Not Chino, but this other guy. So the other sick one was like, 'Wow-

    HUFF: Look at you, life coach.

    VOULGARIS: Yeah, that's what I was. So the other ones would look, 'Haralabo s is a nice guy, maybe Haralabos will lend me $2,000.' So... and I was just a sucker. I felt bad for these people. So I would just lend them $2,000.

    HUFF: Wow, how you've changed, Haralabos, it's unbelievable.

    VOULGARIS: So anyways, so Chino would call me up and would be, like, 'Hey...' I don't even know if it was to borrow that $5,000... to get the $5,000 I owed him, or if it was to get, like... He would call me up sometimes and be, like, 'So-and-so is out of town and he's not gonna be here until 2 o'clock. He was gonna buy me into this tournament. Can you give me $10,000?' And I'd be, like, 'No. No, no.'

    But anyways, however it broke down where someone actually called and confirmed that yeah, I gave Chino the money or something... at like five in the morning, my phone rings and it's Chino. And he's like... and I've been playing poker all night and was tired... and he was like, 'I'm gonna come and get that $5,000 from you.' And I was, 'Okay, cool, whatever.'

    So he comes up to the room with this other dude, and I go into my box and I give him what I think is a $5,000 chip. And I kinda hear like... he leaves... and I hear this, like, scurrying. And this, kinda like, fast motion and something... a commotion is going up. And I'm 'what is going on?' So then I go back to my... where I have my money... and I notice, um... oh, I might have given him a $25,000 chip...

    HUFF: Gave him a little cranberry for the road?

    VOULGARIS: ...instead of a $5,000 one. So I'm, like, 'What the f*ck?' So I go out and I'm, like, 'Hey Chino!' And he's, like, 'Yeah man, we'll see you later!' And they're, like, pushing the elevator button real fast, right? And I was, like, 'Dude, I think I gave you a $25,000 chip instead of a $5,000 chip.' And he, like, kind of like sheepishly looks and goes, 'Oh, did you? Oh yeah, you did. Oh cool, I'm sorry. Oh, wow. I woulda like... I mean... I didn't notice...' All this other stuff.

    Anyways, as it turns out, I've since talked to him since then about it and, um, he's pretty much said he would have just kept it. Because he was a sick one. He couldn't help it. So that's a little Chino backstory, about who Chino is... or who he was, I guess.


    * * * * *

     
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    @CursedDiamonds on twitter

  18. #18
    Any thoughts on the Berri / Ben cross booking agreement? I personally thought it was to vague but maybe i'm not up on my cross booking slang.

    There's plenty of people on 4 that think it's clear the Berri's in the right, i'm not seeing it.

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