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Thread: Ask me questions about limit hold 'em

  1. #21
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The guy playing as icfishies isn't John Stamos, and it's not the real icfishies, either.

    But anyway, yes, with experience you can learn to save bets on the turn and river by folding, but you have to be careful when doing so in heads-up pots.

    One good thing to do is watch how your opponent plays his rivers. If you see him make a fair amount of bluff river bets and super-thin value bets, it's hard to make tight river folds against him. However, if he tends to check behind on the river with no hand (if you've called his betting the whole way), then you can respect his river bets more. A lot of players assume that their opponents will call the river with any pair or any ace high, so they often won't throw that final bet in if their draw didn't get there.

    Against bad players, you really can't make tight laydowns ever, unless the player's leak is super-straightforwardness and lack of ability to bluff.

    Also, never get into heads-up raising wars with a hand that has no showdown value, unless you are a favorite to get there.

    For example, let's say you have 7d9d and the board is KdQd3c. Don't bother being super-aggro on a board like that against 1 opponent, because he probably hit a piece of that flop if he's giving you action, and he knows there's a good chance you have a draw, so he's also calling down ace high and lower pairs. You're better off playing this one passively until you get there, because your 9-high will almost never win on its own.

    It's a lot more justified to be aggressive with AsJs on a board of 8s6s2c because you might already have the best hand, and you also probably have outs to your overcards, too.

    You can also be aggressive with the 7d9d on a flop like 6d8s2d because you are a favorite to get there with either your straight or flush draw, and being aggressive on the flop will disguise your hand if you do make one of them (especially the straight).

  2. #22
    Silver Sandwich's Avatar
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    Ok well, I just got back from a lengthy 10-20 limit holdem session at Borgata this weekend. When I arrived mid afternoon on Saturday there were three tables going -- one main game and two "must move" tables. Must Move 2 fed into Must Move 1, which fed into the Main Game.

    When I arrived, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?) the Must Move 2 game was short handed, so I had to hit the ground running. The game alternated between four-, five- and six-handed, depending upon who got up to go to the bathroom, smoke, etc., while waiting to be called to the full table Must Move 1.

    There are three hands in particular that I'd love to get comments on. I bought in for 500. Won some pots, lost some pots --lots of action, preflop raising and raising turns with weak draws, etc. Two of my opponents I recognized as good aggressive regulars, definitely winners in the game. Even though we were short handed, I didn't feel outclassed -- I was able to make some moves and get people to fold best hands as well as pay off some of my value bets when I had the best hand. My stack took a large hit on the following hand, though.... I'd be interested to hear comments.

    Hand #1: Four handed. Fold, fold. Blind vs. Blind. My opponent (the BB) is a good (winning) aggressive player who does not "chop" shorthanded. I get Tc5c in the small blind and decide to raise. He three-bets me and I call. Flop comes Q32 rainbow. I bet, he calls. Turn is a T. I bet, he raises, I call. River is an offsuit 4. I check, he bets, I call. He shows T6 which beats my T5.

    Without being results oriented -- is this somewhat of a cooler here or is my shorthanded play here too spewy? I really felt like I could take control and get my opponent to fold, and then each time he raised me I felt he had some bluffs in his range. Any thoughts on blind-vs-blind play against good players would be appreciated.

    So after that hand, and a few other losses, my stack was down to about 180. I pumped my stack up with another 300, and then after losing a couple more hands, got the call to move to full-ring Must Move 1. I bumped my stack up another 200 (in for 1000 total...ugh), so I had about 450 in chips in front of me when I moved tables.

    Must Move 1 was similarly aggressive preflop and after the flop -- a bit less so than the shorthanded table though. Still, no preflop limping, so, depending upon my position, I tried to tighten up and play good starting hands for a raise. (As the evening went on, Must Move 2 filled up as well, so playing shorthanded was never an issue the rest of the night).

    Hand #2: Ten handed. A bunch of folds. Worst player at the table who has been raising pretty much anything raises in MP. I re-raise Ks8s on the button, and the small blind, big blind and MP call. Flop comes KcTd3s. SB bets, BB raises, MP calls, I call. Turn is 2h. SB bets, BB calls, MP folds, I call. River is a 8h. SB checks, BB bets, I call, SB calls. (Comments?)

    So from Must Move 1 until my move to the Main Game, I consistently and very gradually built up my stack. The Main Game contained some preflop limpers and so I was able to play a few more suited connector and low pair type hands passively preflop.

    Hand #3: Ten Handed. It's getting on toward the end of my session and I'm getting tired. I have Ah3h in the small blind. The BB is the same good aggressive player BB from Hand #1 two tables ago. A couple of folds. MP raises, LP calls, Button calls, I call, BB calls. So five of us see the flop of AcTh8h. I bet, BB calls, MP raises, LP folds, button folds, I call, BB calls. Three of us see the turn Ad. I check, BB checks, MP bets, I call, BB calls. At this point I am thinking that one of my opponents has an ace and has got me outkicked. I'm hoping for a heart so I hit my flush, really. The River is the 8d and I was so focused on it not being a heart that I don't even notice that it has paired the board, giving me Aces full of Eights. BB checks, MP bets, I call and BB calls and I table the winning hand, thinking to myself how I blew it by not recognizing that the board paired.


    How bad was my failure to read the board properly there? Is my river call horrible? Should I have raised and called a re-raise? The only hands that beat me are AT and 88.

    At that point I decided that I'm getting tired and so I racked up when the blinds got back around to me. All told, I cashed out for $1016 -- net profit on the night of 16 American dollars. It felt good to dig myself out of the hole, but I'd obviously have preferred to start my session (shorthanded or not) on the plus side, not stuck!

  3. #23
    Silver Sandwich's Avatar
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    I'm heading back to the Borgata tonight for some 10-20 LHE this weekend. Doesn't anyone have any comments about any of the hands above? Druff?
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  4. #24
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwich
    Hand #1: Four handed. Fold, fold. Blind vs. Blind. My opponent (the BB) is a good (winning) aggressive player who does not "chop" shorthanded. I get Tc5c in the small blind and decide to raise. He three-bets me and I call. Flop comes Q32 rainbow. I bet, he calls. Turn is a T. I bet, he raises, I call. River is an offsuit 4. I check, he bets, I call. He shows T6 which beats my T5.

    Without being results oriented -- is this somewhat of a cooler here or is my shorthanded play here too spewy? I really felt like I could take control and get my opponent to fold, and then each time he raised me I felt he had some bluffs in his range. Any thoughts on blind-vs-blind play against good players would be appreciated.
    Sorry, but you butchered this one.

    I agree that it's frustrating when you raise the SB against the BB of an aggressive player, get 3-bet, and you think he's just putting moves on you.

    However, you need to accept the fact that you'll be forced off some hands by aggressive players, and not just fire into them with complete garbage.

    I would actually fold the T5-suited against an aggro player in the BB, since I am getting 3-bet a lot and then will typically miss the flop out of position. Even if I hit, there's some chance I'm dominated.

    But putting that aside, once you totally missed the flop, it was time to check/fold.

    If you really wanted to run a move on him (because the board was dry), you should have check-raised instead of bet out. Betting out always looks suspicious.

    I would have just check-folded the flop.

  5. #25
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwich
    Hand #2: Ten handed. A bunch of folds. Worst player at the table who has been raising pretty much anything raises in MP. I re-raise Ks8s on the button, and the small blind, big blind and MP call. Flop comes KcTd3s. SB bets, BB raises, MP calls, I call. Turn is 2h. SB bets, BB calls, MP folds, I call. River is a 8h. SB checks, BB bets, I call, SB calls.
    If MP was really terrible and raising nearly every hand, I agree with the K8s isolation raise on the button pre-flop.

    I also agree with the call on the flop. Your hand isn't good enough to 3-bet, but you also don't want to fold, given that you may still have the best hand. The SB bet-out to me looks like a weak king. It might be stronger than yours (such as KJ), but could also be King-trash. MP could have any garbage, and the BB could be raising a draw. If I had to guess, I'd say you were behind at least one player, maybe two, but you shouldn't fold there unless there's more action (such as 3 and 4 bets on the flop).

    I would have raised the river. Sometimes you'll run into a set or a weirdly-played KT (by the SB), but more often than not, you have the best hand there. You also might rope in the BB to an extra call (who almost surely is behind you on the river). Unfortunately you'll have to call a 3-bet, unless you're 100% sure that you're against a player who wouldn't 3-bet another K8 or worse. If you were second to act, I might advocate just a call, since raising someone out who would otherwise call is useless.

  6. #26
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwich
    Hand #3: Ten Handed. It's getting on toward the end of my session and I'm getting tired. I have Ah3h in the small blind. The BB is the same good aggressive player BB from Hand #1 two tables ago. A couple of folds. MP raises, LP calls, Button calls, I call, BB calls. So five of us see the flop of AcTh8h. I bet, BB calls, MP raises, LP folds, button folds, I call, BB calls. Three of us see the turn Ad. I check, BB checks, MP bets, I call, BB calls. At this point I am thinking that one of my opponents has an ace and has got me outkicked. I'm hoping for a heart so I hit my flush, really. The River is the 8d and I was so focused on it not being a heart that I don't even notice that it has paired the board, giving me Aces full of Eights. BB checks, MP bets, I call and BB calls and I table the winning hand, thinking to myself how I blew it by not recognizing that the board paired.
    Preflop: I agree with the call

    Flop: You seem to like betting out. Unfortunately, this tells people too much about your hand. In this case, you're pretty much announcing, "I have a weak ace!" You have top pair (albeit a bad kicker) and a flush draw, so you might as well be aggressive with it -- at least on the flop. You should have check-raised. If you got 3-bet, you could choose between either calling and waiting to improve on the turn, or 4-betting and only firing the turn if you improve to 2-pair or a flush. Another reason NOT to bet out is because you are letting too many straight draws in cheaply. By check-raising, you are either charging them two bets or forcing them off their straight draw, which is what you want at this point with so much money in the pot.

    Turn: I agree that once you took the line of betting out on the flop and got raised, the additional A doesn't seem to help you, so I agree with the check-call.

    River: Don't beat yourself up about it. You made a human mistake and misread the board. It didn't seem to cost you, as if you raised, the BB would have likely folded, and you would have ended up making the same amount of money. And yes, you always have to call a re-raise there.

  7. #27
    Silver Sandwich's Avatar
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    Well, this weekend at the Borgata was somewhat of a downer, LHE-wise. On Friday night I played 10-20 LHE and felt like I was playing well (for me). Still I think my biggest leak is not knowing when to let go of hands such as Ace-high or a low pair heads up. I need to pay more attention to the preflop and flop action and really try to put people on hands. But it seems like I'm still learning the players' tendencies -- such as aggressiveness preflop to isolate, or when people will be super aggressive and then slow down on a later street.

    Over the course of the evening I was largely card-dead, and had two brutal cooler hands, which IMO was the difference between a basically break-even (small loss?) session and the $585 loss I booked. One was KK vs. AA, low unpaired flop with flush- and straight-draw cards on board, turn a ten and river another ten. The other was a set-over-set situation. SUCKS that I gotta run bad in a game I'm able to play only infrequently.

    (My wife helped me make $400 of it back at the craps table, but that's a different story!)

    The next night, there was a list for 10-20 so I sat in a 3-6 LHE game and the game was so juicy that I decided not to get up when my name was called for 10-20. There was one clueless guy who would call pretty much any bet or raise with the mentality that he is "just blowing thru a couple hundred".... and a drunk couple where the guy was teaching his girl how to play, and she had not quite mastered the concept of hand strength yet, but they were having a blast all the same. So there after the usual variance and beats, rake and tips, I beat the 3-6 game for a whopping $19. Better than losing, I suppose.

    Thanks for the hand analysis on my previous trip, Druff. I'll have to ingrain that stuff into my brain for next time.

  8. #28
    Bronze VegasJim's Avatar
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    Where can I find your shows about limit poker?

    Do you recommend any books that would be relevant for today's game? Or a training site?

    I'm really interested in getting back into limit and want to start fresh from how I played years ago.

  9. #29
    Cubic Zirconia
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    I'm switching to limit holdem low limit 4-8 where is the best strategy for this thank you

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