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Thread: Ask me questions about limit hold 'em

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Ask me questions about limit hold 'em

    I've been actively playing limit hold 'em nearly every day for the past 11+ years.

    It's limit hold 'em that I have to thank for the fact that I haven't held a regular job since 2003.

    If you'd like to ask me limit hold 'em questions, or post hand histories to analyze your play, do it here.

    I'll post some basic strategy tips for limit hold 'em shortly, but this thread can be used for questions and answers.

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    *** SCAMMER *** Jasep's Avatar
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    Thin Value

    Hey Druff,

    I was playing in a WSOPc HORSE tournament a few weeks ago and Limit Holdem is without question my weakest of the 5 games.

    This hand came up and I missed value, but im just curious how much value i missed..

    Me KK on the button...

    Heads up it went to 5 bets preflop

    flop - Axx rainbow..

    My opponent check called my flop bet.

    He checked the turn and I checked behind and the same on the river.

    I know I lost at least one street of value on the river, but am I also suppose to bet the turn in that spot?

    My opponent had QQ BTW

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasep View Post
    Hey Druff,

    I was playing in a WSOPc HORSE tournament a few weeks ago and Limit Holdem is without question my weakest of the 5 games.

    This hand came up and I missed value, but im just curious how much value i missed..

    Me KK on the button...

    Heads up it went to 5 bets preflop

    flop - Axx rainbow..

    My opponent check called my flop bet.

    He checked the turn and I checked behind and the same on the river.

    I know I lost at least one street of value on the river, but am I also suppose to bet the turn in that spot?

    My opponent had QQ BTW
    Don't beat yourself up about the turn. If he had AK or AA and check-raised your value bet on the turn, you would have felt stupid all night.

    Tournaments are a different situation, because you can't reload. Preserving chips is sometimes more important than getting extra value. This is not to say you should play super-scared in tournaments, but know that sometimes it's better to keep pots smaller in marginal situations -- especially ones where you're not likely to get sucked out upon.

    However, you should have bet the river. Only a small percentage of players would check out of position BOTH streets like that if they held better than KK. Once he checked the river, you definitely should have bet.

    If it's the type of player who you think can bluff-raise the turn, you're right to check behind there. If it's one who would only check-raise the turn with the ace (or better), I would bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. The fact that it went 5 bets means that he's unlikely to have just a weak ace that he's calling down. If the hand only went 3 bets, you would be smart to check the turn, because he could also be calling down a weaker ace.

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    Bronze mtnDew's Avatar
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    how much money did you have when you turned pro?

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnDew View Post
    how much money did you have when you turned pro?
    I don't want to give exact numbers, but I already had a 6-figure bankroll primarily due to being a cheap Jew and saving my money over the years.

    Remember, I didn't start playing professionally until 2003. At that point, I was already 31 years old, and had a good career going for 8 years.

    This made it a lot less stressful to move up in limits (which I still did rather slowly), because I wasn't gambling my bottom dollar if I ran bad.

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    Cubic Zirconia
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    Hey Druff,

    I am just a hobbyist. I started with Small Stakes Hold'Em, playing $0.50/1 online and up to $4/8 limit live. Then I switched to no limit where my usual game is $2/5 NL (although I don't really get to play that often).

    I've been interested in trying $10/20 limit. I usally play at Foxwoods or Borgata. so the game usually runs. Does that kind of game run like a typical Small Stakes Hold'Em game? Or at places like Foxwoods or Borgata, is it filled with nitty regulars?

    I've heard your old radio shows where you use an isolating style. I've never really played that way, and would prefer a straight-up small stakes hold'em game. Do you think it would work at East Coast $10/20 limit?

    How much of a difference does it make if higher games are running or not running? $10/20 sometimes will be the highest game going. Would the $10/20 be much better when $20/40 is running?

    Thanks,

    -Tom

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jively View Post
    Hey Druff,

    I am just a hobbyist. I started with Small Stakes Hold'Em, playing $0.50/1 online and up to $4/8 limit live. Then I switched to no limit where my usual game is $2/5 NL (although I don't really get to play that often).

    I've been interested in trying $10/20 limit. I usally play at Foxwoods or Borgata. so the game usually runs. Does that kind of game run like a typical Small Stakes Hold'Em game? Or at places like Foxwoods or Borgata, is it filled with nitty regulars?

    I've heard your old radio shows where you use an isolating style. I've never really played that way, and would prefer a straight-up small stakes hold'em game. Do you think it would work at East Coast $10/20 limit?

    How much of a difference does it make if higher games are running or not running? $10/20 sometimes will be the highest game going. Would the $10/20 be much better when $20/40 is running?

    Thanks,

    -Tom

    The highest game running in any poker room is usually considerably tougher than the 2nd-highest game (of the same type).

    This goes along with my earlier-posted statement that most poker players play one level too high for where they really belong.

    So, yes, if you play $10/$20, I would try to play on nights when the $20/$40 is also going.

    You refer to my "isolating style", but you don't have to play that way. You can also stick to a tight-aggressive style, which will also work. Just don't get caught up in the limper's mentality that frequently takes place in those games.

    Like, it's fine to limp if you have a suited-connector type hand and you have a few limpers in front of you, but don't get into the mindset where you're just generally going to limp along with everyone else unless you have a premium hand.

    I can't answer about the regulars in those east coast games, as I don't live on that side of the country.

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    Cubic Zirconia
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    Hey Druff –

    Thanks for taking the time to do this.

    I’m a recreational losing to break-even low-limit player (3/6 and 4/8). I make money when the game is populated with drunks and degenerates, but lose when the most of the players at the table are tight and/or semi component.

    What I notice is that when the tables are tight and/or populated with semi component players, it’s not always that I’m losing big to them, it is that the rake (10%, max of $4 plus $1 jackpot) is making everybody lose. Many nights it seems to me at least that no one at the table is 10% (plus a dollar tip for every winning hand) better than anybody else.

    Your thoughts on jumping to 8/16 with the hopes the lower rake as a percentage of the pot will help tilt the scales to slight winner/break even? Or if I can’t beat 4/8 – even with the rake – am I kidding myself?

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    Cubic Zirconia
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    What is the smallest limit where the rake can be beat? I assume it's different for online vs live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by limp donk bingo View Post
    What is the smallest limit where the rake can be beat? I assume it's different for online vs live.
    Multiple factors would need to be defined to give a 100% precise answer...

    If you're talking live the lowest I'd imagine would be a 4-8 game, even then you'd probably be beating the game for peanuts after the drop+toke's. Online is a lot different getting rakeback and not having to tip will save you boatloads long term. I'd imagine you could beat some really small stakes online but then again why would you even bother? Do you really want to beat the 25c-50c game for a bet or two? lol

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Call_Station View Post
    Hey Druff –

    Thanks for taking the time to do this.

    I’m a recreational losing to break-even low-limit player (3/6 and 4/8). I make money when the game is populated with drunks and degenerates, but lose when the most of the players at the table are tight and/or semi component.

    What I notice is that when the tables are tight and/or populated with semi component players, it’s not always that I’m losing big to them, it is that the rake (10%, max of $4 plus $1 jackpot) is making everybody lose. Many nights it seems to me at least that no one at the table is 10% (plus a dollar tip for every winning hand) better than anybody else.

    Your thoughts on jumping to 8/16 with the hopes the lower rake as a percentage of the pot will help tilt the scales to slight winner/break even? Or if I can’t beat 4/8 – even with the rake – am I kidding myself?
    Yes, move out of $4/$8 if you want to beat the rake. That rake you described is brutal.

    If you are a decent limit player, you should be able to handle live $8/$16.

    Just remember never to open-limp, and to play your made hands aggressively (but learn to slow down when getting raised by the super-straightforward types).

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    Silver Sandwich's Avatar
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    Live 10-20 at the Borgata. Not above my bankroll, but I've been having trouble winning here, consistently at least. Players seem to pick their spots for targeted aggression, and except for some preflop isolation raises/re-raises, nobody seems to be getting too out of line.

    (I'm not seeing any suit icons, so pardon me for the format below)

    8 handed...
    Preflop: Hero is BB with 6h, 5d
    UTG calls, 3 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls

    Flop: 2c, 3s, 5h (4 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls

    Turn: Ah (2 players)
    Hero check, CO bet, Hero calls

    River: Qd (2 players)
    Hero???

    My thought process:
    Preflop, I'm getting 6:1, ready to play four way. I usually bet this flop, but my read on the table was that someone was going to bet behind me. So while I would have hated to give a free card here with low top pair (and a missed chance to thin the field). Rather than donk bet the turn, the Ace coming seemed like a spot where I wanted to showdown my pair, and these players seemed tricky enough to raise me with a heart draw, in which case I'd not really know where I stand. So do I check call this river? (and am I correct in thinking that I only have to be good over 10% of the time here, and I can put my opponent on busted straight or flush draws, which I mostly beat (unless of course he has a higher pair than me)?)

    Any thoughts or criticisms from Druff or ANY accomplished LHE player welcome!

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    Bronze John Stamos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwich View Post
    Live 10-20 at the Borgata. Not above my bankroll, but I've been having trouble winning here, consistently at least. Players seem to pick their spots for targeted aggression, and except for some preflop isolation raises/re-raises, nobody seems to be getting too out of line.

    (I'm not seeing any suit icons, so pardon me for the format below)

    8 handed...
    Preflop: Hero is BB with 6h, 5d
    UTG calls, 3 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls

    Flop: 2c, 3s, 5h (4 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls

    Turn: Ah (2 players)
    Hero check, CO bet, Hero calls

    River: Qd (2 players)
    Hero???

    My thought process:
    Preflop, I'm getting 6:1, ready to play four way. I usually bet this flop, but my read on the table was that someone was going to bet behind me. So while I would have hated to give a free card here with low top pair (and a missed chance to thin the field). Rather than donk bet the turn, the Ace coming seemed like a spot where I wanted to showdown my pair, and these players seemed tricky enough to raise me with a heart draw, in which case I'd not really know where I stand. So do I check call this river? (and am I correct in thinking that I only have to be good over 10% of the time here, and I can put my opponent on busted straight or flush draws, which I mostly beat (unless of course he has a higher pair than me)?)

    Any thoughts or criticisms from Druff or ANY accomplished LHE player welcome!
    the way this hand played out I would have bet the flop. I would have bet the turn and probably check fold river. Really dependent on the players but if they are playing very straightforward then you beat nothing on the river if you bet the turn and he calls. By checking the turn you give him the option to bluff a heart draw. On the river he is only betting straights (starting with 44 probably or a4) he might value bet two pair like a5 or aq or a set if he knows he can value bet thin on you.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwich View Post
    Live 10-20 at the Borgata. Not above my bankroll, but I've been having trouble winning here, consistently at least. Players seem to pick their spots for targeted aggression, and except for some preflop isolation raises/re-raises, nobody seems to be getting too out of line.

    (I'm not seeing any suit icons, so pardon me for the format below)

    8 handed...
    Preflop: Hero is BB with 6h, 5d
    UTG calls, 3 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls

    Flop: 2c, 3s, 5h (4 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls

    Turn: Ah (2 players)
    Hero check, CO bet, Hero calls

    River: Qd (2 players)
    Hero???

    My thought process:
    Preflop, I'm getting 6:1, ready to play four way. I usually bet this flop, but my read on the table was that someone was going to bet behind me. So while I would have hated to give a free card here with low top pair (and a missed chance to thin the field). Rather than donk bet the turn, the Ace coming seemed like a spot where I wanted to showdown my pair, and these players seemed tricky enough to raise me with a heart draw, in which case I'd not really know where I stand. So do I check call this river? (and am I correct in thinking that I only have to be good over 10% of the time here, and I can put my opponent on busted straight or flush draws, which I mostly beat (unless of course he has a higher pair than me)?)

    Any thoughts or criticisms from Druff or ANY accomplished LHE player welcome!
    I will break down all 4 streets:

    Pre-flop: Fine. Almost everyone would call here, given that there are 3 others in the hand, it's just one more bet, and your hand can "surprise" people for a big pot if it makes a straight or even 2 pair.

    Flop: Leading out isn't terrible, but your idea to check-raise is better. I also agree with your 3-bet. The CO could easily be isolating with ace high, and even if he isn't, you have outs. If you flat the raise, you will be letting UTG stay in the hand for sure, and he can come back to beat you in a lot of ways. You're best off 3-betting and trying to take this thing to heads-up. So you played that part right. I don't like the leading out because too many people will take one off if it's just one bet, and you're going to have to fade too many cards. Better to just eliminate opponents right now. Also, it's not likely to check around, since the CO will be continuation betting with any pair and usually with an ace (since he thinks the 4 is an out, as well).

    Turn: Check-calling is the correct move. He likely either has an ace or a better pair -- or perhaps even a set. A bet will be unlikely to get him to fold, unless he holds something unlikely like KQ or QJ. There's a fair chance he'll raise you with this card, and there are no other opponents left to eliminate, so now you want to keep it cheap and see a showdown.

    River: Player-dependent. If this is a solid player who wouldn't be isolating the UTG player without a quality hand, you're fucked. Why? Because you can't beat any pocket pair except 44, any ace, KQ, QJ, QT, etc. So basically now you're only ahead of 44 and KJ/KT/JT or some weird suited connector he could be isolating with. A solid, tight-aggressive player won't be isolating with something like 78s or 9Ts here, and especially wouldn't be raising the flop, so you can safely fold. If he happened to have 44, oh well... that's the breaks. A loose-aggressive player might have to be called down here, since he could still showdown crap (or 44). However, folding here is never a bad move, given how many hands you're behind.

    Did you still call? If so, don't beat yourself up about it. While you should strive to save river bets by folding in super-obvious "I'm losing" spots, occasional bad/marginal river calls aren't bad, because otherwise you can appear to be a folder, which is an image you don't want. Just don't make a habit of leaking too much on the river.

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    Silver Sandwich's Avatar
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    Thanks, John Stamos and Druff, for the responses. I'm going to have to really digest both of them (later), and may have some follow-up questions, but for sake of completeness, I thought I'd answer Druff's question....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Did you still call?
    No, I check-folded the river. So I have no idea what Villian ended up having. I posted this particular hand because I don't know if I'm overcompensating, trying too much not to "spew" on rivers (because I think that is my tendency, to play tight before the river, but call pretty loosely heads up on the river). At these 10-20 games, I sometimes get the feeling that I'm being "picked on" by the regulars who sense my reluctance to get to showdown without a solid hand.

    On this hand, if I'm going to check-call the turn, then what is the appropriate thought process behind check-folding the river? Does the Q change much? Couldn't my opponent have a busted flush or straight draw that I beat at least a "significant" (dictated by pot odds and the fact that a call would "close the action") percentage of the time?

    Feeling lost a bit on these rivers. Like I said, I'm gonna think more about this over the weekend. Thanks for the response, guys.

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Your fold was fine. Don't worry about it.

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    Canadrunk limitles's Avatar
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    I too am a limit only player. As you and everyone knows the game changed a couple of years back. The competition increased exponentially. I had a hard time adjusting so I just kept playing till

    a modest bankroll was gone. I had to drop to lower limits but still the game wasn't the same........Only recently has it dawned on me(duh)........my opponents are literally playing everything.

    I don't know if this is the case in your limit range but it's amazing the difference it makes when playing against the same players. (goddamn Russians).

    I'm still more prone to fold pre-flop with a weak hand but now when I'm in it takes a lot to get me off it. It's more a game of chicken now. Would you agree?

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    Plutonium Brittney Griner's Clit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limitles View Post
    I too am a limit only player. As you and everyone knows the game changed a couple of years back. The competition increased exponentially. I had a hard time adjusting so I just kept playing till

    a modest bankroll was gone. I had to drop to lower limits but still the game wasn't the same........Only recently has it dawned on me(duh)........my opponents are literally playing everything.

    I don't know if this is the case in your limit range but it's amazing the difference it makes when playing against the same players. (goddamn Russians).

    I'm still more prone to fold pre-flop with a weak hand but now when I'm in it takes a lot to get me off it. It's more a game of chicken now. Would you agree?

    So you are Limit Les! I never saw it confirmed.

    Find a live game. For christs sake get off the internet.

  19. #19
    Canadrunk limitles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brittney Griner's Clit View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by limitles View Post
    I too am a limit only player. As you and everyone knows the game changed a couple of years back. The competition increased exponentially. I had a hard time adjusting so I just kept playing till

    a modest bankroll was gone. I had to drop to lower limits but still the game wasn't the same........Only recently has it dawned on me(duh)........my opponents are literally playing everything.

    I don't know if this is the case in your limit range but it's amazing the difference it makes when playing against the same players. (goddamn Russians).

    I'm still more prone to fold pre-flop with a weak hand but now when I'm in it takes a lot to get me off it. It's more a game of chicken now. Would you agree?

    So you are Limit Les! I never saw it confirmed.


    B

    Find a live game. For christs sake get off the internet.

    Between you and me limitles does not stem from the fact that I play limit poker and my name is Les. Not that there's any thing wrong with the name Les you know. Parents. Wtf

    limitles comes from the spiritual side of me. That's right. Drug and gambling addiction is winning the day at the moment and it may kill me but when I break away from those habits

    I get back to what is real..........Meditation...... laugh all you want but it has saved my life more than once. So limitles relates to being unbounded. You cannot get this feeling doing drugs or

    alcohol.

    Just so happens that I play limit poker too.

    fnl

  20. #20
    Silver Sandwich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limitles View Post
    I'm still more prone to fold pre-flop with a weak hand but now when I'm in it takes a lot to get me off it. It's more a game of chicken now. Would you agree?
    I totally agree with this. Especially when in a full ring game and it gets down to heads up, I find that many opponents will aggressively bet and raise draws and so if I have even a small piece I'm usually sticking around until showdown. To compensate for this, I will often play tighter preflop (so I'm the one coolering my opponent, not the other way around).

    What I need to become better at is recognizing those times when I should fold turns and rivers (without making the huge mistake of folding a winner for one bet), as well as recognizing those times when I should be betting and raising for value (without being a spew-tard).

    icfishies (John Stamos?) destroyed me in heads up low limit holdem on NoFraud Online Poker last night -- somehow I think it wasn't just a variance thing.

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