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Thread: Poker Bots

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    Platinum cmoney's Avatar
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    Poker Bots

    Maybe a stupid question but how does online poker survive with the advancement of AI and poker bots? Wont there be a point in the near future where bots will not only be better than almost all players but also impossible to detect? I am sure this has been debated a ton already, but I dont see how online poker exists once this happens. Which means all this talk about legalization doesn't really matter. There are probably poker bots right now that are owning the shit out of players.
    :freelewfather

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    Sites that are not regulated have less of an incentive to detect a bot. They won't want to spend a whole lot of money investing in technology to detect these bots because in the end it's just all rake generated. If poker becomes more regulated across the board gaming regulations would have to force sites to develop better methods of detection.

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    Platinum cmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewfather View Post
    Sites that are not regulated have less of an incentive to detect a bot. They won't want to spend a whole lot of money investing in technology to detect these bots because in the end it's just all rake generated. If poker becomes more regulated across the board gaming regulations would have to force sites to develop better methods of detection.

    It just seems as if they will adapt and figure out a way around it especially once the bots are printing money for them. Video gamers cheat all the time using bot scripts, constantly updating them to get around security measures, and this is an area where there isn't even any financial incentive to do so.

     
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      bukowski72: There will be some drtying up of the games. This is what happened to high limit backgammon.
    :freelewfather

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    The problem is that they are detectable in many ways, and there is a risk in running them, as the account gets closed and all money is confiscated.

    Even mouse movements can give away the presence of bots.

    With that said, I think there probably are a lot of bots on the existing US-facing sites, because their security is incompetent. (Also, on Bovada, you can't see who is playing you, so it's very hard for the player to identify them.)

     
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      bukowski72: Yeah those guys running the omaha bots on PS really took a hit after pocketing at least a million.
      
      ftpjesus: o8 bots are fewer and far between.. Shanky had one but they just dont support it much.. The money and energy for Bots continues to be NLHE and dont see that changing

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    Platinum cmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    The problem is that they are detectable in many ways, and there is a risk in running them, as the account gets closed and all money is confiscated.

    Even mouse movements can give away the presence of bots.

    With that said, I think there probably are a lot of bots on the existing US-facing sites, because their security is incompetent. (Also, on Bovada, you can't see who is playing you, so it's very hard for the player to identify them.)

    Maybe I am being naive, but it seems as if it would be fairly easy to mimic human play. For example, the bot is actually controlling your mouse, is programmed to pause, alert a real human when asked a question directly, not play for long periods of time, etc. Or just have the bot on another computer and then human manually entering in the data. Wouldnt that work?

     
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      bukowski72: They do all this stuff now. First bots were responding for the same amount of time to each action. Best thing about bots is they never tilt. Lose 60 BB HU limit and still NO TILT.it
    :freelewfather

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    Bots currently suck ass at no limit holdem and PLO. While theoretically solvable, the game trees are so enormous (many orders of magnitude larger than chess) that even quantum computers calculating every planck second wouldn't be able to find all game states before the heat death of the universe.

    You don't have to do all that to make a capable bot, but that gives an idea of how complex it is. I wouldn't assume it's inevitable that bots will be crushing NLH within 10 years. Maybe they never will.

    Google seems to have decent human detection these days based on mouse movements and other behavioral identity data. Those are those the captchas where you just tick a box. I don't know how easy that is to circumvent though.

     
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      bukowski72: Wrong. Bots won huge at mid stakes PLO. "Massive PLO bot ring on PS"
    Last edited by SrslySirius; 06-14-2016 at 07:41 AM.

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    Gold Shizzmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
    Bots currently suck ass at no limit holdem and PLO. While theoretically solvable, the game trees are so enormous (many orders of magnitude larger than chess) that even quantum computers calculating every planck second wouldn't be able to find all game states before the heat death of the universe.

    You don't have to do all that to make a capable bot, but that gives an idea of how complex it is. I wouldn't assume it's inevitable that bots will be crushing NLH within 10 years. Maybe they never will.

    Google seems to have decent human detection these days based on mouse movements and other behavioral identity data. Those are those the captchas where you just tick a box. I don't know how easy that is to circumvent though.
    Bots have gotten a little better at PLO, but the main concern for me playing any potential AI is in limit games, IMO.

    The captcha idea is a good suggestion, but those operate bots have found ways to get around that too. It's a difficult thing to self-police and the only way for players to defend the integrity of games is for the sites themselves to invest time & money in security.
    http://www.miraclecovers.com

    "Donk down, that’s what you say to someone after they have lost 28K straight?" - Phil Hellmuth, online

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    Yeah limit games are far less complex (mathematically speaking) and I heard recently that LHE has been solved. gg Duff/China

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    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewfather View Post
    Sites that are not regulated have less of an incentive to detect a bot. They won't want to spend a whole lot of money investing in technology to detect these bots because in the end it's just all rake generated. If poker becomes more regulated across the board gaming regulations would have to force sites to develop better methods of detection.
    Lew nails it with the rake.

    However, regulation is actually probably to blame here again somewhat. There are so few US facing sites and the regulated sites exist as virtual mononpolies because the regulated states are such a huge fail.

    The lack of competition is the evil. Some outfit would respond to their customers concerns in a free market. They would differentiate themselves with the claim in advertising they run a clean "bot free" game.

    NEVER look to government to solve a consumer need.

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    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
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    Sites will never win the arms race for bot detection.

    Never.

    Javascript libraries already exist for psuedo-human mouse movement emulation, they are used extensively in clickfraud botnets. Process detection becomes mooted easily by running the game in a hypervised OS and having the bot interact with the VM's console. Plus, some sites allow hot-keys that totally allow the mouse to be ignored during play.

    In theory one could forbid the use of VMs but even then, given that the AV industry cant even detect the majority of malware being released, what are the odds of poker sites having the resources to do proper detection?


    So yeah, bots/AI are going to become extremely profitable if people start playing online again in numbers.


    Which they never will because poker is faggot, of course.

     
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      gauchojake: poker is faggot indeed
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Over 5 years ago on 2p2 it was speculated and accepted by many that LHEM was pretty much a solved game and there's software or bots that can play almost perfectly. People were pointing out that a big chunk of big lhem winners were software engineers/ programmers etc.

    Circumstantial evidence or pure coincidence?
    Druff's game of choice is lhem
    His online results in that game of choice
    Druff's education in computers and software
    Druff's lack of concern about GTO software or poker bots was strangely dismissive. People can have their software/bot running on a stand alone computer w optical sensors to read the screen and have the actual person input the software advice.
    Him mentioning US sites might have bots but not mentioning Bovada which has an anon. player pool.
    Running a poker fraud forum
    He's conservative

    He's probably legit but you guys keep an eye on him
    Last edited by FPS_Russia; 06-14-2016 at 02:31 PM.

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    For what its worth two of the most popular bots out there out in the open and not hiding their existence is the ever popular Shanky bot akahttp://www.bonusbots.com and the other is Warbot which uses a modified version of the OpenHoldem platform on which a lot of bot users apparently are modifying to their own usage and does in fact screen scrap to operate. (the down side to Warbot is on a couple platforms it has to run XP to work properly apparently vs even 7 or Win 10).. Warbot is available through this link http://www.poker-bot.org/main/ (for those curious about its existence). I figure exposing this information is more of a public service I readily deny I use either platform nor would I because readily available bots exist only to grind rake back and play minimum micro stakes primarily and just cant see it worth the money even at $100-$200 to pay for something for min stakes autoplayer. Reality is the good bots aren't for sale because no idiot would bother to sell the golden goose..

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    Quote Originally Posted by FPS_Russia View Post
    Over 5 years ago on 2p2 it was speculated and accepted by many that LHEM was pretty much a solved game and there's software or bots that can play almost perfectly. People were pointing out that a big chunk of big lhem winners were software engineers/ programmers etc.

    Druff's lack of concern about GTO software or poker bots was strangely dismissive. People can have their software/bot running on a stand alone computer w optical sensors to read the screen and have the actual person input the software advice.
    I do find this attitude to be weird. A few years ago a group was working on perfecting a limit AI player(could have been part of the Alberta group). They said they had it solved and were looking for players to play against -- for free. Some of the 2+2 nerds like smellypete or something were playing them / giving them action which only allowed their bots to get better.

    I couldn't believe these dumb fucks didn't realize giving the AI all this experience playing very good limit players could come back to haunt them. None of university computer geeks would ever use this info to try and win real money.

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    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
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    Some people admire the science/art behind it.


    Same as chess really.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    bukowski72: Wrong. Bots won huge at mid stakes PLO. "Massive PLO bot ring on PS"
    I believe they won by colluding and sharing dead card info, which makes the game waaaay simpler.

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    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
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    Yeah thats what the Viet gangs used to do.

     
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      bukowski72: Shout out to the Chinese stud cheaters.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Quote Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
    Yeah limit games are far less complex (mathematically speaking) and I heard recently that LHE has been solved. gg Duff/China
    I won't argue that it has been solved





























    By Me


























     
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      Baron Von Strucker: lol take it down china
      
      sonatine: this motherfucker right here
      
      sah_24: China is god
      
      nunbeater: that's a mighty fine giraffe you got there son

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    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
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    what happened at hand 22581? did you take lsd or something and have a revelation?
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

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    Diamond chinamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    what happened at hand 22581? did you take lsd or something and have a revelation?
    Sort of, after getting Fs for grades for a while I decided to study for tests. Studying paid off.

     
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      sonatine: you honor me with wisdom

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    Quote Originally Posted by chinamaniac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    what happened at hand 22581? did you take lsd or something and have a revelation?
    Sort of, after getting Fs for grades for a while I decided to study for tests. Studying paid off.

    China you're now a suspect too. Did you get a pm from Druff or what? something like this...

    Druff: China get in there and deflect and downplay, FPS is on to us big time! How does he know PFA's a front wtf..
    China: Oh shit, ok. Where's DJ Chaps when you need him.
    Druff: I think it's best to just totally ignore him, nobody believes him. Don't legitimize his "troll posts."
    China: K

    China, who else is on "The Dream Team"?

    Nah I'm just fucking around with you guys. I'm pretty sure Druff has GTO software but I believe he would just practice against it, therefore not breaking the TOS.
    Druff lives in the loopholes, well played I guess...

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