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Thread: Five years later, the LAPT screws Ari "BodogAri" Engel the exact same way the Wynn screwed me in 2007

  1. #1
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    Five years later, the LAPT screws Ari "BodogAri" Engel the exact same way the Wynn screwed me in 2007

    I refuse to play poker at the Wynn. That's because they cheated me five years ago, and I refuse to give their poker room any further business.

    How did I get cheated?

    In February, 2007, I played a $1060-buyin NL event at the Wynn Classic. The Wynn made poor decisions regarding the colors of their tournament chips, to where the $500 chips and $100 chips were of similar colors, and could easily be confused.

    I was down to 2200 in chips, and found myself with TT, with the blinds at 50-100. I opened to 300, the button flatted, the SB folded, the BB called. Flop came K-rag-rag, to where the king was the only overcard to my tens. There was also no reasonable draw on the board.

    I made a continuation bet of 700 on the flop, and the button threw out 900. The two blinds folded. It came back to me, and the dealer said, "He raised." Before I could respond, Allen Kessler, who was seated next to me, piped up, "That's not a raise, it's a call. A raise has to be 1050."

    The player then realized his mistake. He said that he meant to raise to 1700, with three 500 chips and two 100 chips. Because the chips looked alike, he accidentally grabbed one 500 chip and four 100 chips.

    It was pretty clear to me that this guy had at least a king, and I was drawing to two outs. From what I had seen of his play, he was pretty straightforward. So calling the raise to 1700 (which virtually put me all-in) wasn't an option.

    But was it really a raise? Sure, I believed the guy MEANT to raise me to 1700, but meaning to do something and actually doing it are two different things. For example, if you commit a "string raise" by putting out chips to call and then reaching back for more chips to raise, you are forced to call, regardless of what you "meant" to do. Like any competition, poker is about what you actually did, not what you intended to do.

    So back to the hand. The dealer didn't know what to do, so he called over the floorperson. It was a middle-aged woman with a bitchy attitude, and she told me that she was going to rule it a min-raise (to 1400) because he "clearly meant to raise." The table, and especially Kessler, was livid. Nobody had ever seen a ruling like that before. All of us had fallen victim in the past to making accidental motions or actions that cost us chips, and we accepted it as part of the game. Now this guy got a do-over because he "meant" to do something different?

    I tried to ask for her supervisor, but she refused to get him. She told me that the ruling was done and that she would order my hand dead if I didn't act within 30 seconds. I folded.

    The dude flashed me Ace-King before collecting his chips.

    Later, after I busted, I tracked down the tournament director and told him what happened. He agreed that I got screwed, and said he'd look into it. I got a very apologetic phone call from him a few days later, with the generous promise to refund my $1060 buyin as a result of this screwup. Unfortunately, his supervisors must have disagreed with this offer, and suddenly he wouldn't return my phone calls to arrange this. When I finally reached him (by going down to the poker room itself and confronting him), he denied ever having offered it to me. I took it higher to the poker room manager, who gave me the same runaround before ultimately rejecting me and again denying that he had ever made that offer. The whole thing stunk to high heaven and I never went back.

    Back to the present.

    Ari "Bodog Ari" Engel is a professional tournament player now living abroad. He played in the Pokerstars-backed LAPT, and a very similar situation occurred. He raised to 750 with KK, a guy meant to call with some mediocre hand, but accidentally raised it to over 5000 because the 5000 and 100 chips were similar. Again, the floorman ruled that his opponent "meant" to do something else (call, instead of raise), and allowed him to redo his bet!

    Ari was livid, and rightfully so.

    Here is Lee Jones' blog about the matter:

    http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/lee_jo...te-094892.html

    There really needs to be a strict set of rules set up for all tournaments that prevents idiotic floormen from bending standard tournament rules in this fashion. We pay a lot of money (both in buyin and rake) to play these tournaments, and as players we deserve much, much better.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I refuse to play poker at the Wynn. That's because they cheated me five years ago, and I refuse to give their poker room any further business.

    How did I get cheated?

    In February, 2007, I played a $1060-buyin NL event at the Wynn Classic. The Wynn made poor decisions regarding the colors of their tournament chips, to where the $500 chips and $100 chips were of similar colors, and could easily be confused.

    I was down to 2200 in chips, and found myself with TT, with the blinds at 50-100. I opened to 300, the button flatted, the SB folded, the BB called. Flop came K-rag-rag, to where the king was the only overcard to my tens. There was also no reasonable draw on the board.

    I made a continuation bet of 700 on the flop, and the button threw out 900. The two blinds folded. It came back to me, and the dealer said, "He raised." Before I could respond, Allen Kessler, who was seated next to me, piped up, "That's not a raise, it's a call. A raise has to be 1050."

    The player then realized his mistake. He said that he meant to raise to 1700, with three 500 chips and two 100 chips. Because the chips looked alike, he accidentally grabbed one 500 chip and four 100 chips.

    It was pretty clear to me that this guy had at least a king, and I was drawing to two outs. From what I had seen of his play, he was pretty straightforward. So calling the raise to 1700 (which virtually put me all-in) wasn't an option.

    But was it really a raise? Sure, I believed the guy MEANT to raise me to 1700, but meaning to do something and actually doing it are two different things. For example, if you commit a "string raise" by putting out chips to call and then reaching back for more chips to raise, you are forced to call, regardless of what you "meant" to do. Like any competition, poker is about what you actually did, not what you intended to do.

    So back to the hand. The dealer didn't know what to do, so he called over the floorperson. It was a middle-aged woman with a bitchy attitude, and she told me that she was going to rule it a min-raise (to 1400) because he "clearly meant to raise." The table, and especially Kessler, was livid. Nobody had ever seen a ruling like that before. All of us had fallen victim in the past to making accidental motions or actions that cost us chips, and we accepted it as part of the game. Now this guy got a do-over because he "meant" to do something different?

    I tried to ask for her supervisor, but she refused to get him. She told me that the ruling was done and that she would order my hand dead if I didn't act within 30 seconds. I folded.

    The dude flashed me Ace-King before collecting his chips.

    Later, after I busted, I tracked down the tournament director and told him what happened. He agreed that I got screwed, and said he'd look into it. I got a very apologetic phone call from him a few days later, with the generous promise to refund my $1060 buyin as a result of this screwup. Unfortunately, his supervisors must have disagreed with this offer, and suddenly he wouldn't return my phone calls to arrange this. When I finally reached him (by going down to the poker room itself and confronting him), he denied ever having offered it to me. I took it higher to the poker room manager, who gave me the same runaround before ultimately rejecting me and again denying that he had ever made that offer. The whole thing stunk to high heaven and I never went back.

    Back to the present.

    Ari "Bodog Ari" Engel is a professional tournament player now living abroad. He played in the Pokerstars-backed LAPT, and a very similar situation occurred. He raised to 750 with KK, a guy meant to call with some mediocre hand, but accidentally raised it to over 5000 because the 5000 and 100 chips were similar. Again, the floorman ruled that his opponent "meant" to do something else (call, instead of raise), and allowed him to redo his bet!

    Ari was livid, and rightfully so.

    Here is Lee Jones' blog about the matter:

    http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/lee_jo...te-094892.html

    There really needs to be a strict set of rules set up for all tournaments that prevents idiotic floormen from bending standard tournament rules in this fashion. We pay a lot of money (both in buyin and rake) to play these tournaments, and as players we deserve much, much better.
    Ok, just read the blog by Lee Jones and the fact that he put in multiple chips makes it a raise regardless of his intentions. There is a rule that says if you throw out a large denomination chip without declaring a raise it's a call, but in this case he placed multiple chips in the pot.

    Personally I look at these decisions like bad calls in baseball; in the end a bad floor ruling evens out, but you should most definitely be a manager running out of the dugout and make a stink about it; if for nothing else to insure you get the benefit of the next call.

    In your case; it's ridiculuous that the guy said he could get your buy-in back and then changed his story. I actually think you have a legitimate case for not playing there again. Also, how on earth does a the floor rule against Allen Kessler?!??!?!!??! It's like punching out Wade Boggs looking; if he didn't swing it wasn't a strike
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I refuse to play poker at the Wynn. That's because they cheated me five years ago, and I refuse to give their poker room any further business.

    How did I get cheated?

    In February, 2007, I played a $1060-buyin NL event at the Wynn Classic. The Wynn made poor decisions regarding the colors of their tournament chips, to where the $500 chips and $100 chips were of similar colors, and could easily be confused.

    I was down to 2200 in chips, and found myself with TT, with the blinds at 50-100. I opened to 300, the button flatted, the SB folded, the BB called. Flop came K-rag-rag, to where the king was the only overcard to my tens. There was also no reasonable draw on the board.

    I made a continuation bet of 700 on the flop, and the button threw out 900. The two blinds folded. It came back to me, and the dealer said, "He raised." Before I could respond, Allen Kessler, who was seated next to me, piped up, "That's not a raise, it's a call. A raise has to be 1050."

    The player then realized his mistake. He said that he meant to raise to 1700, with three 500 chips and two 100 chips. Because the chips looked alike, he accidentally grabbed one 500 chip and four 100 chips.

    It was pretty clear to me that this guy had at least a king, and I was drawing to two outs. From what I had seen of his play, he was pretty straightforward. So calling the raise to 1700 (which virtually put me all-in) wasn't an option.

    But was it really a raise? Sure, I believed the guy MEANT to raise me to 1700, but meaning to do something and actually doing it are two different things. For example, if you commit a "string raise" by putting out chips to call and then reaching back for more chips to raise, you are forced to call, regardless of what you "meant" to do. Like any competition, poker is about what you actually did, not what you intended to do.

    So back to the hand. The dealer didn't know what to do, so he called over the floorperson. It was a middle-aged woman with a bitchy attitude, and she told me that she was going to rule it a min-raise (to 1400) because he "clearly meant to raise." The table, and especially Kessler, was livid. Nobody had ever seen a ruling like that before. All of us had fallen victim in the past to making accidental motions or actions that cost us chips, and we accepted it as part of the game. Now this guy got a do-over because he "meant" to do something different?

    I tried to ask for her supervisor, but she refused to get him. She told me that the ruling was done and that she would order my hand dead if I didn't act within 30 seconds. I folded.

    The dude flashed me Ace-King before collecting his chips.

    Later, after I busted, I tracked down the tournament director and told him what happened. He agreed that I got screwed, and said he'd look into it. I got a very apologetic phone call from him a few days later, with the generous promise to refund my $1060 buyin as a result of this screwup. Unfortunately, his supervisors must have disagreed with this offer, and suddenly he wouldn't return my phone calls to arrange this. When I finally reached him (by going down to the poker room itself and confronting him), he denied ever having offered it to me. I took it higher to the poker room manager, who gave me the same runaround before ultimately rejecting me and again denying that he had ever made that offer. The whole thing stunk to high heaven and I never went back.

    Back to the present.

    Ari "Bodog Ari" Engel is a professional tournament player now living abroad. He played in the Pokerstars-backed LAPT, and a very similar situation occurred. He raised to 750 with KK, a guy meant to call with some mediocre hand, but accidentally raised it to over 5000 because the 5000 and 100 chips were similar. Again, the floorman ruled that his opponent "meant" to do something else (call, instead of raise), and allowed him to redo his bet!

    Ari was livid, and rightfully so.

    Here is Lee Jones' blog about the matter:

    http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/lee_jo...te-094892.html

    There really needs to be a strict set of rules set up for all tournaments that prevents idiotic floormen from bending standard tournament rules in this fashion. We pay a lot of money (both in buyin and rake) to play these tournaments, and as players we deserve much, much better.
    Ok, just read the blog by Lee Jones and the fact that he put in multiple chips makes it a raise regardless of his intentions. There is a rule that says if you throw out a large denomination chip without declaring a raise it's a call, but in this case he placed multiple chips in the pot.

    Personally I look at these decisions like bad calls in baseball; in the end a bad floor ruling evens out, but you should most definitely be a manager running out of the dugout and make a stink about it; if for nothing else to insure you get the benefit of the next call.

    In your case; it's ridiculuous that the guy said he could get your buy-in back and then changed his story. I actually think you have a legitimate case for not playing there again. Also, how on earth does a the floor rule against Allen Kessler?!??!?!!??! It's like punching out Wade Boggs looking; if he didn't swing it wasn't a strike
    I cant get to the blog on my work network, so thanks for clarifying Steve. In the 5000 situation the guy threw out multiple chips? Thats clearly a raise. In Druffs write up he said the 100 and 5000 chips look similar so when I initially read it I was confused too.
    It's hilarious that we as a society think everyone can be a dr, a lawyer, an engineer. Some people are just fucking stupid. Why can't we just accept that?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    Ok, just read the blog by Lee Jones and the fact that he put in multiple chips makes it a raise regardless of his intentions. There is a rule that says if you throw out a large denomination chip without declaring a raise it's a call, but in this case he placed multiple chips in the pot.

    Personally I look at these decisions like bad calls in baseball; in the end a bad floor ruling evens out, but you should most definitely be a manager running out of the dugout and make a stink about it; if for nothing else to insure you get the benefit of the next call.

    In your case; it's ridiculuous that the guy said he could get your buy-in back and then changed his story. I actually think you have a legitimate case for not playing there again. Also, how on earth does a the floor rule against Allen Kessler?!??!?!!??! It's like punching out Wade Boggs looking; if he didn't swing it wasn't a strike
    I also agree on the multiple chips ruling. At any room I've played at in Boston, and I also believe at Foxwoods/Moheghan too, if you put in multiple chips and don't say anything, that's your raise. Ditto opposite with one chip; don't say anything with one chip in pot=call.

    Also, god bless Allen Kessler. That guy's a nit's nit.......but if you are on shit end of a poker decision, he'd be the "3rd Base Umpire" to ask an opinion on.

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