Greg Raymer (again) proposes lousy staking deal on YouStake

[Dan Druff]

If you have 20% risk in my $500k BR and I shoot off $100k, I now owe you $80k not $0.0

Yeah, miscalculation on my part, but my main point remains true.

In my example, I could have $80k (to cover having to pay if I lose the entire 100k), claim to have $400k behind, and then get a much larger portion than I deserve when I win.

The bottom line is that a stake should never work based upon a bankroll. It should work based upon events actually played, or the whole thing falls apart in the manner I described, and can be exploited big time.

[gimmick]

If you have 20% risk in my $500k BR and I shoot off $100k, I now owe you $80k not $0.0

Yeah, miscalculation on my part, but my main point remains true.

In my example, I could have $80k (to cover having to pay if I lose the entire 100k), claim to have $400k behind, and then get a much larger portion than I deserve when I win.

The bottom line is that a stake should never work based upon a bankroll. It should work based upon events actually played, or the whole thing falls apart in the manner I described, and can be exploited big time.

It doesn't matter at all if the "other" money exists or not. The deal is just as bad in both cases and highly exploitable either way.

It's pretty much every stake horse's job to try to get as ridiculous deal they can get that still sells when offered at an open market. Offering a "fair" deal is just leaving money at the table.

[jsearles22]

The problem with that is he doesn't know which tournaments he is going to play, it is based on him getting casinos to buy his training seminars so he gets his lodging and travel for free as well.

I understand that excuse, but it also is somewhat of a cop-out.

If he doesn't know what tourneys he's going to play, he shouldn't be collecting $100k in advance.

Or at the very least, he needs to promise a minimum number (that is, value) of tourneys played, so people don't feel they're being freerolled with that last $50k that supposedly came from him and "investors".

And the cash game part needs to be eliminated completely.

If he really wants to play cash, why doesn't he just do that on his own $20k (or his $20k plus some of the outside investor money), and use the stakes just for tourneys?

This whole thing smells bad. I don't care if it's Greg Raymer, Chino Rheem, or Jesus Christ. It just has way too many loopholes that can be exploited without detection.

Druff, why does your opinions and integrity of games change depending on if you know the person or have an agenda? Example- Chinamaniac has offered a BAP on this site which included tournies and live cash at the WSOP. Through page after page after page you respond but never question his integrity. You never imply he might steal the money. You start a completely different thread when I question his integrity!! But now your feelings are completely different? This from the self proclaimed unbiased beacon of integrity?

[MumblesBadly]

I understand that excuse, but it also is somewhat of a cop-out.

If he doesn't know what tourneys he's going to play, he shouldn't be collecting $100k in advance.

Or at the very least, he needs to promise a minimum number (that is, value) of tourneys played, so people don't feel they're being freerolled with that last $50k that supposedly came from him and "investors".

And the cash game part needs to be eliminated completely.

If he really wants to play cash, why doesn't he just do that on his own $20k (or his $20k plus some of the outside investor money), and use the stakes just for tourneys?

This whole thing smells bad. I don't care if it's Greg Raymer, Chino Rheem, or Jesus Christ. It just has way too many loopholes that can be exploited without detection.

Druff, why does your opinions and integrity of games change depending on if you know the person or have an agenda? Example- Chinamaniac has offered a BAP on this site which included tournies and live cash at the WSOP. Through page after page after page you respond but never question his integrity. You never imply he might steal the money. You start a completely different thread when I question his integrity!! But now your feelings are completely different? This from the self proclaimed unbiased beacon of integrity?

When did this happen?

[Dan Druff]

I understand that excuse, but it also is somewhat of a cop-out.

If he doesn't know what tourneys he's going to play, he shouldn't be collecting $100k in advance.

Or at the very least, he needs to promise a minimum number (that is, value) of tourneys played, so people don't feel they're being freerolled with that last $50k that supposedly came from him and "investors".

And the cash game part needs to be eliminated completely.

If he really wants to play cash, why doesn't he just do that on his own $20k (or his $20k plus some of the outside investor money), and use the stakes just for tourneys?

This whole thing smells bad. I don't care if it's Greg Raymer, Chino Rheem, or Jesus Christ. It just has way too many loopholes that can be exploited without detection.

Druff, why does your opinions and integrity of games change depending on if you know the person or have an agenda? Example- Chinamaniac has offered a BAP on this site which included tournies and live cash at the WSOP. Through page after page after page you respond but never question his integrity. You never imply he might steal the money. You start a completely different thread when I question his integrity!! But now your feelings are completely different? This from the self proclaimed unbiased beacon of integrity?

China plays online. You can watch him play or track him, and know he's not ripping you off.

I don't remember a WSOP cash stake. I will say right now that, in general, I don't support live cash stakes and think there is too much chance for abuse.

China also made it clear which tournaments he was playing.

[jsearles22]

Druff, why does your opinions and integrity of games change depending on if you know the person or have an agenda? Example- Chinamaniac has offered a BAP on this site which included tournies and live cash at the WSOP. Through page after page after page you respond but never question his integrity. You never imply he might steal the money. You start a completely different thread when I question his integrity!! But now your feelings are completely different? This from the self proclaimed unbiased beacon of integrity?

China plays online. You can watch him play or track him, and know he's not ripping you off.

I don't remember a WSOP cash stake. I will say right now that, in general, I don't support live cash stakes and think there is too much chance for abuse.

China also made it clear which tournaments he was playing.

You can feign ignorance, but it happened. There is a whole thread here discussing it. I questioned his integrity. You removed all of that type of discussion and started the infamous "Jsearles debates China's WSOP BAP" which now lives in PFA lore. We all know you've clearly searched this topic tonight. So quit being a politician and answer the direct question. China ran a BAP that included 55% of the money set aside for LIVE cash play. This would clearly be subject to potential abuse, much like Raymers. So why did you all but call Raymer a scammer while remaining mute in the China situation? One could argue it was MORE important to protect the members of your forum whom were very likely to invest in China moreso than just randomly commenting on Raymers BAP proposal that no one reading was likely to invest in anyways.

[MumblesBadly]

China plays online. You can watch him play or track him, and know he's not ripping you off.

I don't remember a WSOP cash stake. I will say right now that, in general, I don't support live cash stakes and think there is too much chance for abuse.

China also made it clear which tournaments he was playing.

You can feign ignorance, but it happened. There is a whole thread here discussing it. I questioned his integrity. You removed all of that type of discussion and started the infamous "Jsearles debates China's WSOP BAP" which now lives in PFA lore. We all know you've clearly searched this topic tonight. So quit being a politician and answer the direct question. China ran a BAP that included 55% of the money set aside for LIVE cash play. This would clearly be subject to potential abuse, much like Raymers. So why did you all but call Raymer a scammer while remaining mute in the China situation? One could argue it was MORE important to protect the members of your forum whom were very likely to invest in China moreso than just randomly commenting on Raymers BAP proposal that no one reading was likely to invest in anyways.

I hate to admit: Jsearles remembers correctly that China ran a combined MTT + live cash WSOP BAP back in 2012:
http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...is-WSOP-pieces

And China's argument about the value of the combined stake basically came down (1) such staking arrangements are common, (2) his reputation as an honest guy, and (3) his solid track record to-date for his investors.

http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...ll=1#post17963

I added the 2 together because it is extremely common in the staking world to have MTTS and Cash as bundles as part of a package. If you go to PTP and look at staking packages for WSOP you will probably find plenty that are set up the same way and same on 2+2.

As far as my honesty goes that's up to whomever buys to decide whether I am trustworthy or not. People who get staked live don't have their backers present at all times and that's where a level of trust has to come in. if I play live cash I will tweet what I am playing when I finish and how much I won or lost.

Also online cash tracking is not 100 % on PTR for merge. Here is an example of how I could have fucked my backers which is something I would never do.

PTR has me down like 1500 or 2k on the screen name I recently switched to when I am actually up over 1000 maybe 1500 on that name (I can get the exact # in a bit). It missed 2 or 3 short 15-30 and 20-40 games where I mopped up but I reported what actually happened and reported the true #s.

Any snake or someone dishonest may have used something like that to skew the actual #s so they could keep the winnings because it never was tracked.

So in the end that is up to the backers whether to trust me.

http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...ll=1#post18752

People invest in me because I am a proven winner and they can possibly get a decent size ROI with a little risk. Even if they lose they get makeup and I am a proven winner over time.

People don't invest in you because you are a terrible player and your micro stats prove that. If they do invest in you it is because they don't value the dollar very much.

Thirdly even if your ROI was higher on a BAP that mine this time it proves nothing. I believe I have doubled my backers money on 3 stakes I have run and made them a good chunk of change.

Fourthly my ROI lifetime in cash games is a $100 investment into 200-300k. You are a big loser in micro stakes cash games lifetime.

The only thing you are very good at is being the worst poster on this board

And there doesn't seem to be any comments by Druff in that thread challenging the trustworthiness of China's BAP structure.

So, Druff, for the record: Have you changed your mind about combined Tourney+Cash BAP deals since then? Or is there something about Raymer's reputation that prompts you to question the merit of *Raymer* making a similar offer?

[chinamaniac]

China plays online. You can watch him play or track him, and know he's not ripping you off.

I don't remember a WSOP cash stake. I will say right now that, in general, I don't support live cash stakes and think there is too much chance for abuse.

China also made it clear which tournaments he was playing.

You can feign ignorance, but it happened. There is a whole thread here discussing it. I questioned his integrity. You removed all of that type of discussion and started the infamous "Jsearles debates China's WSOP BAP" which now lives in PFA lore. We all know you've clearly searched this topic tonight. So quit being a politician and answer the direct question. China ran a BAP that included 55% of the money set aside for LIVE cash play. This would clearly be subject to potential abuse, much like Raymers. So why did you all but call Raymer a scammer while remaining mute in the China situation? One could argue it was MORE important to protect the members of your forum whom were very likely to invest in China moreso than just randomly commenting on Raymers BAP proposal that no one reading was likely to invest in anyways.

I did offer one with live cash play. But I actually pulled if off the shelves and put a new BAP up ONLY FOR what MTT I was playing I believe. I was never staked for live cash games if I remember correctly.

But I still see nothing wrong with offering cash play. If you feel you can trust the guy then invest. If not then don't invest. It is that simple.

[jsearles22]

China plays online. You can watch him play or track him, and know he's not ripping you off.

I don't remember a WSOP cash stake. I will say right now that, in general, I don't support live cash stakes and think there is too much chance for abuse.

China also made it clear which tournaments he was playing.

You can feign ignorance, but it happened. There is a whole thread here discussing it. I questioned his integrity. You removed all of that type of discussion and started the infamous "Jsearles debates China's WSOP BAP" which now lives in PFA lore. We all know you've clearly searched this topic tonight. So quit being a politician and answer the direct question. China ran a BAP that included 55% of the money set aside for LIVE cash play. This would clearly be subject to potential abuse, much like Raymers. So why did you all but call Raymer a scammer while remaining mute in the China situation? One could argue it was MORE important to protect the members of your forum whom were very likely to invest in China moreso than just randomly commenting on Raymers BAP proposal that no one reading was likely to invest in anyways.

Bump for answers

[MumblesBadly]

You can feign ignorance, but it happened. There is a whole thread here discussing it. I questioned his integrity. You removed all of that type of discussion and started the infamous "Jsearles debates China's WSOP BAP" which now lives in PFA lore. We all know you've clearly searched this topic tonight. So quit being a politician and answer the direct question. China ran a BAP that included 55% of the money set aside for LIVE cash play. This would clearly be subject to potential abuse, much like Raymers. So why did you all but call Raymer a scammer while remaining mute in the China situation? One could argue it was MORE important to protect the members of your forum whom were very likely to invest in China moreso than just randomly commenting on Raymers BAP proposal that no one reading was likely to invest in anyways.

I did offer one with live cash play. But I actually pulled if off the shelves and put a new BAP up ONLY FOR what MTT I was playing I believe. I was never staked for live cash games if I remember correctly.

But I still see nothing wrong with offering cash play. If you feel you can trust the guy then invest. If not then don't invest. It is that simple.

Truth spoken.
http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...Limit-Combined

[Dan Druff]

You can feign ignorance, but it happened. There is a whole thread here discussing it. I questioned his integrity. You removed all of that type of discussion and started the infamous "Jsearles debates China's WSOP BAP" which now lives in PFA lore. We all know you've clearly searched this topic tonight. So quit being a politician and answer the direct question. China ran a BAP that included 55% of the money set aside for LIVE cash play. This would clearly be subject to potential abuse, much like Raymers. So why did you all but call Raymer a scammer while remaining mute in the China situation? One could argue it was MORE important to protect the members of your forum whom were very likely to invest in China moreso than just randomly commenting on Raymers BAP proposal that no one reading was likely to invest in anyways.

Bump for answers

Maybe you can make another eloquent call to PFA Radio to explain your side of this again.

[jsearles22]

Bump for answers

Maybe you can make another eloquent call to PFA Radio to explain your side of this again.

So when you are caught red handed being a hypocritical douche your response is to try to insult me? Seems legit

[MumblesBadly]

Maybe you can make another eloquent call to PFA Radio to explain your side of this again.

So when you are caught red handed being a hypocritical douche your response is to try to insult me? Seems legit

Druff, the J-man from KC actually has a point. For awhile in 2012, China offered a combo Tourney+Cash BAP, and you didn't seem to challenge this kind of offer as questionable at that time.

So, either...

(A) You felt differently back then about the hazard of such staking offers than you do today,

(B) You passed on mentioning the hazard because you thought that China would not cheat his investors and didn't think it was an issue with him, or

(C) You passed on publicly mentioning the hazard because of your friendship with China, as J-annoy has accused you here of doing.

So, which is it?

[jsearles22]

Bump for answers

[John Stamos]

I am not a fan of staking people in live cash games and would never do it nowadays but if I did I would have no problem giving money to China.

I think it's ok for Druff to question Raymer just like it is ok for people to question Druff's pieces that he sells during the WSOP.

[Dan Druff]

Bump for answers

Yes, I can tell that four years after getting owned in the thread where you questioned China's winning record and trustworthiness, you are sitting here with blue balls waiting for me to respond to this.

You want an answer so badly? Here it is:

In 2012, I was very hands-off when it came to known users running stakes. If anyone who had a good rep around here came to me and asked, "Hey, can I run a stake?", I would say yes, and I would pretty much tune out whatever was happening unless someone brought a problem to my attention.

I figured that we are all adults here, and I am not a father figure who has to supervise how other grown men spend their money.

That all changed in early 2013 when the Jasep fiasco occurred, which honestly was the low point in PFA's existence.

Since then, I have been much tighter about who I allow to run stakes here, and under what terms they are operating.

While it is not my responsibility to vet every staking offer posted here (just like Mason Malmuth bears no responsibility for scams which are committed by users on 2+2), I decided that I did not want PFA users victimized, and that even longtime trusted users can sometimes "turn" when finding themselves in a desperate situation.

So now I have much stricter standards as to which stakes can be run through this site.

I will again state that I don't think live cash stakes are a good idea. I don't recommend you stake ANY user in live cash, including me. It's just too hard to verify, and even if the person is acting honestly, suspicions and questions can always occur. It's just not a good idea.

Online cash stakes are different, as that can be tracked and watched.

There you go.

Also, the cash game element was just one of many weird/shady things about this Raymer stake. In 2014, I posted about a similar stake Raymer ran, and was only mildly critical of him. That one didn't jump out at me as much. This one was just weird in so many ways, so I had to say something.

Finally, in all the years China has run stakes, not a single person has ever complained about him. Not once. He has a spotless record, as he did in 2012. So I don't know what point you're even trying to prove.

[jsearles22]

Bump for answers

Yes, I can tell that four years after getting owned in the thread where you questioned China's winning record and trustworthiness, you are sitting here with blue balls waiting for me to respond to this.

You want an answer so badly? Here it is:

In 2012, I was very hands-off when it came to known users running stakes. If anyone who had a good rep around here came to me and asked, "Hey, can I run a stake?", I would say yes, and I would pretty much tune out whatever was happening unless someone brought a problem to my attention.

I figured that we are all adults here, and I am not a father figure who has to supervise how other grown men spend their money.

That all changed in early 2013 when the Jasep fiasco occurred, which honestly was the low point in PFA's existence.

Since then, I have been much tighter about who I allow to run stakes here, and under what terms they are operating.

While it is not my responsibility to vet every staking offer posted here (just like Mason Malmuth bears no responsibility for scams which are committed by users on 2+2), I decided that I did not want PFA users victimized, and that even longtime trusted users can sometimes "turn" when finding themselves in a desperate situation.

So now I have much stricter standards as to which stakes can be run through this site.

I will again state that I don't think live cash stakes are a good idea. I don't recommend you stake ANY user in live cash, including me. It's just too hard to verify, and even if the person is acting honestly, suspicions and questions can always occur. It's just not a good idea.

Online cash stakes are different, as that can be tracked and watched.

There you go.

Also, the cash game element was just one of many weird/shady things about this Raymer stake. In 2014, I posted about a similar stake Raymer ran, and was only mildly critical of him. That one didn't jump out at me as much. This one was just weird in so many ways, so I had to say something.

Finally, in all the years China has run stakes, not a single person has ever complained about him. Not once. He has a spotless record, as he did in 2012. So I don't know what point you're even trying to prove.

The point is you're a biased hypocrite. The stakes Raymer and China ran are eerily similar. They both involved tournies and live cash play. They both involved "outsider" investor money. They both involved the stakee putting up their own funds. It irked me, and others, that you all but called Raymer a scammer. You called him broke. When the facts are Raymer has a clean record in the poker world, same as China. It doesn't fly that you use your position in poker and as the owner of PokerFraudAlert to call a well known poker pro a scammer when you have zero proof of anything. That in itself would be wrong, but coupled with you had a member here run a very similar stake and you didn't say shit, well it's a bad look in my opinion.

Furthermore, the bulk of your response here centered around stakes and how you handle them on this site. But Raymers stake was not on this site! But China's was. Essentially it's pretty obvious you're not unbiased like you like to present yourself. This Raymer thread is essentially a hit piece designed to drive traffic.

Lastly, why not just say "in 2012 I didn't recognize the complex issues with a combined MTT/cash BAP, especially when the stakee supposedly is bringing unverified funds to the table. I now recognize those issues."???? The answer is either your ego won't allow you to admit as much, or you have always felt this way and simply don't want to admit you're a hypocritical douche.

[jsearles22]

Bump for answers

In 2012, I was very hands-off when it came to known users running stakes. If anyone who had a good rep around here came to me and asked, "Hey, can I run a stake?", I would say yes, and I would pretty much tune out whatever was happening unless someone brought a problem to my attention.

I figured that we are all adults here, and I am not a father figure who has to supervise how other grown men spend their money.

And LMFAO at this section of your reply. So in 2012 you started a poker site to out fraud. You wanted to protect the poker community. Yet the above was your attitude? Do those really align to you? You started a poker fraud site but figured we are all adults and you aren't our father?? Where is the disconnect because to me those seem like wildly different concepts??

[MumblesBadly]

In 2012, I was very hands-off when it came to known users running stakes. If anyone who had a good rep around here came to me and asked, "Hey, can I run a stake?", I would say yes, and I would pretty much tune out whatever was happening unless someone brought a problem to my attention.

I figured that we are all adults here, and I am not a father figure who has to supervise how other grown men spend their money.

And LMFAO at this section of your reply. So in 2012 you started a poker site to out fraud. You wanted to protect the poker community. Yet the above was your attitude? Do those really align to you? You started a poker fraud site but figured we are all adults and you aren't our father?? Where is the disconnect because to me those seem like wildly different concepts??

Do you have a reading problem??? He explained that his opinion about such staking offers changed because of the Jasep debacle. And despite China's stellar record being on the up-and-up with his investors, Druff now does not recommend cash game staking, regardless of who offers it.

Bottom line: Give it rest, jdoofus! It's a moot point!

[lol wow]

Uh Todd jasep rolling you nerds was the literal high water mark of this site