One post 11 1/2 years ago is the reason we are all here

[Dan Druff]

On May 17, 2004, I found a new website called neverwinpoker.com, which was laughably intended to be a fan site for Johnny-come-lately online pro Dustin "neverwin" Woolf.

neverwin and I had been rivals on Pokerstars since 2003, and often talked trash at the tables. We had not yet met in person, but he bragged to me in the Pokerstars chat that he bought a new Mercedes with some of the winnings he had run up during the spring of 2004. When I asked if he had bought the car outright, he told me he financed half of it at 9% (a bad deal even in 2004), and I laughed.

I decided to make the following troll post on neverwinpoker, which was a new, dead forum which wasn't gaining much traction:

Subject: Save neverwin's Mercedes!


neverwin has purchased an expensive new Mercedes with some of the poker winnings that he luckily stumbled into on Pokerstars this spring.

However, instead of smartly making an all-cash purchase, he financed half of the car at the usurious interest rate of 9%!!!

Given the likelihood that neverwin will either tilt off the rest of his winnings (or challenge players heads up who are too tough for him at high limit games), I don't have a good feeling about the future of his vehicle.

Please join me in convincing neverwin to pay off his car outright, so he'll at least have a nice car to pretend he's rich in, after the inevitable bust-out.

Thank you for your time and support.

Dan Druff

http://web.archive.org/web/200409072...=viewtopic&t=1

If you look at the above link, you will see I am listed as "Guest". That's because you could post without registering back then. I was so convinced that this was a one-and-done troll post, I didn't even bother to register.

However, this post set the tone for others (mostly unknown railbirds) to show up and start talking smack, including a weird guy named neverheeb.

I then decided to register, responded to these guys, which then led to some of them asking for poker advice (as they had seen me at the high limit games on Stars). I then answered their poker questions, and suddenly neverwinpoker became a place where people showed up both to talk shit and to ask poker questions.

Eventually more people showed up there -- first as lurkers, and then as posters, and it became known as the anti-2+2 -- a place where one could post pretty much anything without fear of being censored.

None of this was originally planned by Micon. He threw the site up as a lame plan to "merchandise" Dustin (lol), and Micon's attempts to use the forum to drum up interest in discussing neverwin were not successful. Nobody wanted to come to a forum just to worship an online poker player, and without my appearance there and "seeding" the place with both activity and the free speech atmosphere, it would have become another goldenteeplayers.com and died before it ever really started.

Instead, it took off, and Micon and Dustin sold most of it (retaining only a token interest) in 2007 for low-six-figures.

Since then, a number of forums have spawned and respawned from that original community, including this one.

Without that post I made on May 17, 2004, there would be no PFA, no Donkdown, no Boris, no Skatz, not even a Tydepoker, Venompoker, or Vegaspokerradio.

Most of you would never have known each other, I would never have known most of you, Micon and I would likely have barely known of each other's existence, and I'm not sure exactly where I would be posting on the internet right now, if anywhere.

When NWP sold, I was upset that I was getting absolutely nothing, as I had been a huge part in its success, both initially and by contributing ongoing content. Micon and Dustin admitted that NWP would have never "blown up" without my contributions, but countered with, "But the bottom line is that you still don't own it" and "We're broke, you're not, and we are the ones who need the money from this sale."

So I settled for $5000 and 2.5% of the NWP gross revenue going forward (which Pokernews offered, not Dustin/Micon, as I was threatening to walk out on the whole thing if I wasn't given something for all I had done to build it up).

In total, between the cash, Pokernews stock, and 17.5% gross revenue each of them retained after the sale (until late 2009, when Pokernews dropped the forum and radio show), Dustin and Micon probably cleared about $200k each from the whole thing -- maybe more.

[vegemaybe]

On May 17, 2004, I found a new website called neverwinpoker.com, which was laughably intended to be a fan site for Johnny-come-lately online pro Dustin "neverwin" Woolf.

neverwin and I had been rivals on Pokerstars since 2003, and often talked trash at the tables. We had not yet met in person, but he bragged to me in the Pokerstars chat that he bought a new Mercedes with some of the winnings he had run up during the spring of 2004. When I asked if he had bought the car outright, he told me he financed half of it at 9% (a bad deal even in 2004), and I laughed.

I decided to make the following troll post on neverwinpoker, which was a new, dead forum which wasn't gaining much traction:

neverwin has purchased an expensive new Mercedes with some of the poker winnings that he luckily stumbled into on Pokerstars this spring.

However, instead of smartly making an all-cash purchase, he financed half of the car at the usurious interest rate of 9%!!!

Given the likelihood that neverwin will either tilt off the rest of his winnings (or challenge players heads up who are too tough for him at high limit games), I don't have a good feeling about the future of his vehicle.

Please join me in convincing neverwin to pay off his car outright, so he'll at least have a nice car to pretend he's rich in, after the inevitable bust-out.

Thank you for your time and support.

Dan Druff

http://web.archive.org/web/200409072...=viewtopic&t=1

If you look at the above link, you will see I am listed as "Guest". That's because you could post without registering back then. I was so convinced that this was a one-and-done troll post, I didn't even bother to register.

However, this post set the tone for others (mostly unknown railbirds) to show up and start talking smack, including a weird guy named neverheeb.

I then decided to register, responded to these guys, which then led to some of them asking for poker advice (as they had seen me at the high limit games on Stars). I then answered their poker questions, and suddenly neverwinpoker became a place where people showed up both to talk shit and to ask poker questions.

Eventually more people showed up there -- first as lurkers, and then as posters, and it became known as the anti-2+2 -- a place where one could post pretty much anything without fear of being censored.

None of this was originally planned by Micon. He threw the site up as a lame plan to "merchandise" Dustin (lol), and Micon's attempts to use the forum to drum up interest in discussing neverwin were not successful. Nobody wanted to come to a forum just to worship an online poker player, and without my appearance there and "seeding" the place with both activity and the free speech atmosphere, it would have become another goldenteeplayers.com and died before it ever really started.

Instead, it took off, and Micon and Dustin sold most of it (retaining only a token interest) in 2007 for low-six-figures.

Since then, a number of forums have spawned and respawned from that original community, including this one.

Without that post I made on May 17, 2004, there would be no PFA, no Donkdown, no Boris, no Skatz, not even a Tydepoker, Venompoker, or Vegaspokerradio.

Most of you would never have known each other, I would never have known most of you, Micon and I would likely have barely known of each other's existence, and I'm not sure exactly where I would be posting on the internet right now, if anywhere.

When NWP sold, I was upset that I was getting absolutely nothing, as I had been a huge part in its success, both initially and by contributing ongoing content. Micon and Dustin admitted that NWP would have never "blown up" without my contributions, but countered with, "But the bottom line is that you still don't own it" and "We're broke, you're not, and we are the ones who need the money from this sale."

So I settled for $5000 and 2.5% of the NWP gross revenue going forward (which Pokernews offered, not Dustin/Micon, as I was threatening to walk out on the whole thing if I wasn't given something for all I had done to build it up).

In total, between the cash, Pokernews stock, and 17.5% gross revenue each of them retained after the sale (until late 2009, when Pokernews dropped the forum and radio show), Dustin and Micon probably cleared about $200k each from the whole thing -- maybe more.

If you were to sell PFA what percentage of the settlement would Tyde get? I assume I would be due about 0.000001%

[delaware]

I WAS THERE THE WHOLE TIME AND WITHOUT YOU THE WHOLE THING WOULD HAVE NEVER WORKED, I SAID NOT LONG AGO YOU NEVER GAVE UP WHEN 60 PERCENT OF THE THREADS WERE YOURS. MICON PUT VERY LITTLE INTEREST IN IT,AFTER 6 MONTHS IT WAS DROPED IN YOUR HANDS AND MICON POSTED LESS AND LESS. IMAY BE OLD BUT I REMEMBER VERY WELL.THEY GOT THE MONEY BUT YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN ONE THIRD OWNER OF THE SITE. I DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO NEVERWIN AND MICON IS SOMEWERE. IN THE END YOUR ALL THATS LEFT BUT YOUR STILL THE WINNER BECAUSE NOT A BAD THING CAN BE SAID ABOUT YOU. AND YOUR OWN SITE IS VERY GOOD

[phantom]

nostalgia, good one druff


around 2004 i was bored late one night watching tv, channel surfing and came across some texas holdem poker tv show. i had never played or even knew the rules of texas holdem before but did have a regular home game which we played a local game called manilla ( 32 card deck only plays with 7's up and you need to use both hole cards in your hand)
so i was vaguely interested and the ultimatebet ads and graphics were pumping hard on this show i was watching. i ended up regging an account on UB and played playchips for a few weeks til i got bored. tho i did meet some sexy italian bitch thru the chat and she ended up flashin tit over webcam.

after getting bored of playchips and without ever depositing i ended up railing the high stakes games and found that more interesting than cunts going all in every hand on the play chips tables. i would often see a player with the screen name wwwnvrwinpkr with huge stacks and one day decided to google neverwinpoker. i remember one night watching a game with wwwnvrwinpokr and 'count counter' from "iraq" in a 3 way game against some huge donk who got raped hard for at least 100gs. much later after joining the nwp forums i found out count counter was dan druff

[WillieMcFML]

tl;dr - druff ruined yebsite's life

[phantom]

side note: im my noob mind i actually entertained the idea that someone registered from iraq with that kind of money on the table must be related to saddam hussein

[Dan Druff]

nostalgia, good one druff


around 2004 i was bored late one night watching tv, channel surfing and came across some texas holdem poker tv show. i had never played or even knew the rules of texas holdem before but did have a regular home game which we played a local game called manilla ( 32 card deck only plays with 7's up and you need to use both hole cards in your hand)
so i was vaguely interested and the ultimatebet ads and graphics were pumping hard on this show i was watching. i ended up regging an account on UB and played playchips for a few weeks til i got bored. tho i did meet some sexy italian bitch thru the chat and she ended up flashin tit over webcam.

after getting bored of playchips and without ever depositing i ended up railing the high stakes games and found that more interesting than cunts going all in every hand on the play chips tables. i would often see a player with the screen name wwwnvrwinpkr with huge stacks and one day decided to google neverwinpoker. i remember one night watching a game with wwwnvrwinpokr and 'count counter' from "iraq" in a 3 way game against some huge donk who got raped hard for at least 100gs. much later after joining the nwp forums i found out count counter was dan druff

The Iraq thing was actually pretty successful at tilting opponents. I would type things like "I DECLARE A JIHAD ON THIS GAME", "IRAQI POWER", and "MORE MONEY FOR SADDAM'S REGIME" when I would win hands. While some saw through the obvious troll job, some opponents really believed "Count Counter" was Iraqi, and got really angry, thus causing them to give me more action.

This routine was based on a more lighthearted one I used on Interpoker around the same time, where I pretended to be the best poker player from Chad. (The backstory was that I won the Chad Series of Poker by going all-in with ten high and getting called by nine high -- eerily similar to an actual hand that would become the infamous POTRIPPER smoking gun cheating hand on AP years later.)

The Chad character I did on Interpoker was more understated, but go a lot of racist Europeans angry when they thought they were losing to a black guy from Africa, and again I got more action.

Some guy registered on NWP and claimed to be in the American military. He said that he found my Iraqi routine offensive and an affront to everything he was fighting for in Iraq, and said that he was going to punch me in the face when he saw me in person. Of course, this turned out to be a dupe/phony, though I never figured out who it was.

HOF that Phantom believed I might be Iraqi, though.

Dustin did just about nothing functional for NWP during his time there, and rarely posted after initially being semi-active in the very beginning. However, his wwwnvrwinpkr account on UB actually drew a number of people there, as did his neverwinpoker.com avatar on Stars, so he actually had a bigger hand in making NWP active than many realized.

I'm still on good terms with Dustin, btw. We aren't close friends or anything, but he didn't get involved in the dispute between me and Micon, and I could probably get him on the radio show in 2016.

During my big blowup with Micon in 2011 and 2012, at one point he lectured me how huge NWP would have been if I had never gotten involved, and how he made a huge mistake by letting me have such an influence on it. He went on to say that the site would be immensely thriving had I never shown up there. I laughed at this, and reminded him that even he agreed back in 07 that the site would have gone nowhere without my help. Of course, he denied ever saying that, and kept insisting that somehow NWP would have blown up way bigger if I was never a part of it.

Well, I left DD in September 2011, and you guys see what a juggernaut it became from there.

[Dan Druff]

On May 17, 2004, I found a new website called neverwinpoker.com, which was laughably intended to be a fan site for Johnny-come-lately online pro Dustin "neverwin" Woolf.

neverwin and I had been rivals on Pokerstars since 2003, and often talked trash at the tables. We had not yet met in person, but he bragged to me in the Pokerstars chat that he bought a new Mercedes with some of the winnings he had run up during the spring of 2004. When I asked if he had bought the car outright, he told me he financed half of it at 9% (a bad deal even in 2004), and I laughed.

I decided to make the following troll post on neverwinpoker, which was a new, dead forum which wasn't gaining much traction:



http://web.archive.org/web/200409072...=viewtopic&t=1

If you look at the above link, you will see I am listed as "Guest". That's because you could post without registering back then. I was so convinced that this was a one-and-done troll post, I didn't even bother to register.

However, this post set the tone for others (mostly unknown railbirds) to show up and start talking smack, including a weird guy named neverheeb.

I then decided to register, responded to these guys, which then led to some of them asking for poker advice (as they had seen me at the high limit games on Stars). I then answered their poker questions, and suddenly neverwinpoker became a place where people showed up both to talk shit and to ask poker questions.

Eventually more people showed up there -- first as lurkers, and then as posters, and it became known as the anti-2+2 -- a place where one could post pretty much anything without fear of being censored.

None of this was originally planned by Micon. He threw the site up as a lame plan to "merchandise" Dustin (lol), and Micon's attempts to use the forum to drum up interest in discussing neverwin were not successful. Nobody wanted to come to a forum just to worship an online poker player, and without my appearance there and "seeding" the place with both activity and the free speech atmosphere, it would have become another goldenteeplayers.com and died before it ever really started.

Instead, it took off, and Micon and Dustin sold most of it (retaining only a token interest) in 2007 for low-six-figures.

Since then, a number of forums have spawned and respawned from that original community, including this one.

Without that post I made on May 17, 2004, there would be no PFA, no Donkdown, no Boris, no Skatz, not even a Tydepoker, Venompoker, or Vegaspokerradio.

Most of you would never have known each other, I would never have known most of you, Micon and I would likely have barely known of each other's existence, and I'm not sure exactly where I would be posting on the internet right now, if anywhere.

When NWP sold, I was upset that I was getting absolutely nothing, as I had been a huge part in its success, both initially and by contributing ongoing content. Micon and Dustin admitted that NWP would have never "blown up" without my contributions, but countered with, "But the bottom line is that you still don't own it" and "We're broke, you're not, and we are the ones who need the money from this sale."

So I settled for $5000 and 2.5% of the NWP gross revenue going forward (which Pokernews offered, not Dustin/Micon, as I was threatening to walk out on the whole thing if I wasn't given something for all I had done to build it up).

In total, between the cash, Pokernews stock, and 17.5% gross revenue each of them retained after the sale (until late 2009, when Pokernews dropped the forum and radio show), Dustin and Micon probably cleared about $200k each from the whole thing -- maybe more.

If you were to sell PFA what percentage of the settlement would Tyde get? I assume I would be due about 0.000001%

Don't laugh. Pokernews actually paid Jewdonk $400 to post at one point.

They also paid do-nothing mods like Sole and Macon Marc $200 per month, if I recall. They also paid mods like wrenchjockey (I think) and Vwls, but at least they were actually modding. Sole and Macon were mods in name only.

Finally one day they put their foot down about several things:

- They bitched at Micon for borrowing too much money from them (based upon projected revenues in the future), and told him that he would get no more loans.

- They also bitched at Micon for mistreating the Lithuanian programmers.

- They bitched at me for being generally defiant and writing too many negative things about them and their partners.

- They bitched about paying mods and Jewdonk, calling them unnecessary expenses. These were then halted.


The new Pokernews CEO at the time, who decided he really didn't like me from his initial impression, has since changed his tune. He is now a frequent listener to PFA Radio, though I think he has some other role in the Pokernews organization at this point.

[TheXFactor]

Dustin and Micon made about $100K each from the sale of NeverWinPoker.com?

What do you think the value of DonkDown.com is right now?

[abrown83]

The person who got really screwed in the whole NWP thing is DirtyB.

Back on one of the original radio shows I think like end of 2003 very beginning of 2004. DirtyB comes to Micon's house for radio and can be heard teaching Micon about Affiliate Marketing and poker sites. In classic Micon fashion he played it off. Somehow though it took hold with Micon and was the catalyst in the money that was made with NWP.

[simpdog]

It's not 11.5 yrs, that would have been in November.

[abrown83]

Also if there are still any Pokah Forum posters from PokerRoom.com back in the day Holla!

Predates NWP and was the catalyst for a different forum called TotalBluff/TotalPuff.

Vwls I think originally started apart of that community

[DRK Star]

I was so displeased with the way Micon shit on you after you essentially played a major role in running that site, that I obsessively trashed him relentlessly and was hoping for a revolt against him where everyone would leave. What a complete dirtbag asshole he was/is. Zero loyalty.

Glad you decided to start up this place.

[El Gallo]

Neverwinpoker was a big part of my life and I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing without it. I was a prop player at a few sites including jetsetpoker when I was in my early 20's and a lot of us would talk to eachother on messenger and I remember one night someone pointing out some guy just turned $100 into like $10k in 3 hours and that we have have to go watch his inevitable downswing to busto.

I think that was the first heeb run. Someone in chat mentioned Neverwinpoker, and so began my desensitization to black cocks... I literally would forget that our HOF was David Robinson dick and just scroll through forgetting others would be a bit shocked by it.

The first time I ever spoke to my wife who lived 1000 miles away was on another poker forum about Neverwinpoker... our first topic of conversation was around black cocks and how the guys at neverwinpoker were misunderstood and weren't really that bad... I shit you not a few days later you guys got Marty fired from some job making me a liar...

[El Gallo]

Also, I met DRK Star through Donkdown or Boris 4 years ago because he mentioned going to a bar a few blocks from my old house... minus his love of the police, that's turned out very well.

[4Dragons]

Let me open up this arch-ive here..

[limitles]

I think I'd be here regardless as Brittany's "folks" hired me to keep an eye on the kid.

[abrown83]

The first time I ever spoke to my wife who lived 1000 miles away was on another poker forum about Neverwinpoker... our first topic of conversation was around black cocks and how the guys at neverwinpoker were misunderstood and weren't really that bad... I shit you not a few days later you guys got Marty fired from some job making me a liar...

For those wondering, yes this really happened and now you may see why Tyde has some animosity in general towards the user base here.

[devidee]

I believe my first post on NWP was a porn site. That was in 2006 (I had started lurking sometime in 2005). I found out about NWP because of Daniel Negreanu. I can't remember why but it had something to do with Dustin and Negreanu playing heads-up I believe.

People I've met because of NWP:

Epistate
Silence
reggiman
micon
Martha
vegas1369
ugaistheteam

There may have been others but I can't remember right now.

[shortbuspoker]

Sadly, I wasn't around for the NWP years. I was probably still on fullcontactpoker arguing with BigDMcghee's fucking dumbass about actual poker content.