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Thread: 2016 PokerStars VIP Club changes rile up high stakes pros

  1. #61
    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    Amaya is coughing up a lung.

    52 week low. About to drill $18? CA:AYA I only trade/follow in Canadian $. U.S. market is too thinly traded.

    These guys have a fucking problem. I don't see any news except for recent analysts downgrades. You'd think all long term investors/holders would have bailed by now.

    Something's up. Something bad. Good luck grinders.

    I sold for a quick short scalp when it drilled $18.75 the second time today. When your stuck for ideas there are always the casino stocks.

    So I ask myself is it a buy on another move below $18? It's so putrid with no good news. I wouldn't touch it.

    But wait, this often is the best time to take a look. When you have to fight that gag reflex. That's a good sign.

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  2. #62
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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  3. #63
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting on that blog from Negreanu about the changes.

    Since nothing has came out yet perhaps Stars is still debating holding off some of the changes until 2017.

  4. #64
    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker View Post
    I'm still waiting on that blog from Negreanu about the changes.

    Since nothing has came out yet perhaps Stars is still debating holding off some of the changes until 2017.
    PokerStars just lost 1/5 it's value in a few days.

    Rolling out casino, sports & poker in Netherlands. This is do or die for them. If this rollout doesn't go well the whole premise of cross selling & synergy and the future earnings that the stock price is based on - well, well.... the whole thing collapses - HUGE.

    The SNE player points thing has been decided and little energy is probably being devoted to revisit this relatively minor issue considering everything else going on.

    Frankly, now is not a good time to push if you're Negraneau. He's also sharp enough to know it. He risks pushing them to make an annoyed snap decision.

  5. #65
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Frankly, now is not a good time to push if you're Negraneau. He's also sharp enough to know it. He risks pushing them to make an annoyed snap decision.
    The push was put into play well before the past few days events occurred of the stock collapsing. If anything some of the recent decisions along with ones over the past year have been what has hurt Pokerstars at least in the short term having the public outcry opinion that they are either greedy or in trouble.

    Pokerstars still has a stranglehold in the online poker market world wide with the next one in line not even close to them. They have rolled out casino games in various worldwide markets for a while now. I'm just curious to see what choices they make and was prior to the stock collapse but now I'm even more so interested.

    It's all just more reasons why Isai deserves to be in the poker hall of fame.

    For a poker site it's unrealistic to do everything perfect and cater to every poker player's wishes/beliefs but the crew under Isai did a damn good job prior to selling the company off.

    Obviously I can nit pick about a few things like my $15 to $20 in FPPs I couldn't cash in when Black Friday hit or the rate people got for them in the fpp store. Those things could have been handled differently but it was an extreme situation where they handled a lot of things right such as proving to players that funds were really segregated cashing people out 1 to 2 weeks later after Black Friday which makes a lot of things on the surface look minor since they did so much right.

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    Diamond Hockey Guy's Avatar
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    I'm sure these high stake grinders will try to tell everybody that it is because of this issue & their 3 day strike that the stock has plummeted.

     
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      garrett: lol obv
    (•_•) ..
    ∫\ \___( •_•)
    _∫∫ _∫∫ɯ \ \

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
    I'd say good luck in the freeroll but I'm pretty sure you'll go on a bender to self-sabotage yourself & miss it completely or use it as the excuse of why you didn't cash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy View Post
    I'm sure these high stake grinders will try to tell everybody that it is because of this issue & their 3 day strike that the stock has plummeted.
    Already been done

    https://twitter.com/burrrrrberry/status/674383730111221762

    Last edited by lvpkr1009; 12-09-2015 at 09:01 AM.

  8. #68
    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Frankly, now is not a good time to push if you're Negraneau. He's also sharp enough to know it. He risks pushing them to make an annoyed snap decision.
    The push was put into play well before the past few days events occurred of the stock collapsing. If anything some of the recent decisions along with ones over the past year have been what has hurt Pokerstars at least in the short term having the public outcry opinion that they are either greedy or in trouble.

    Pokerstars still has a stranglehold in the online poker market world wide with the next one in line not even close to them. They have rolled out casino games in various worldwide markets for a while now. I'm just curious to see what choices they make and was prior to the stock collapse but now I'm even more so interested.

    It's all just more reasons why Isai deserves to be in the poker hall of fame.

    For a poker site it's unrealistic to do everything perfect and cater to every poker player's wishes/beliefs but the crew under Isai did a damn good job prior to selling the company off.

    Obviously I can nit pick about a few things like my $15 to $20 in FPPs I couldn't cash in when Black Friday hit or the rate people got for them in the fpp store. Those things could have been handled differently but it was an extreme situation where they handled a lot of things right such as proving to players that funds were really segregated cashing people out 1 to 2 weeks later after Black Friday which makes a lot of things on the surface look minor since they did so much right.
    I wasn't trying to tie Amaya's troubles to the grinder issue. Amaya's troubles are just gonna diminish the grinders hope. That money has already moved around the accounting ledger. Amaya needs it badly and has already told investors their intent.

    The BetStars rollout in Denmark is the first, I believe. Yeah casino has been around obv. But this will soon be the first example of all PStars offerings at one time. This is what they want to look like.

    Regarding Isai. Rational Group was working on Spin 'n Go before Amaya bought them. Isai knew which way the wind was blowing. PStars issue is a lack of growth with Poker. Isai could not have saved them.

  9. #69
    Gold Shizzmoney's Avatar
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    Stars counters with a PR-middle finger

    In hindsight, we could have communicated to players more often that significant changes were coming in 2016. We could have been more explicit that these changes would be significant and would take effect in 2016. And we could have noted this on our VIP web pages that gave details of the program. There was no intention to deceive and certainly not to profit from this, as an increase in the number of Supernova Elites, who are on average net withdrawing players, does not provide a financial benefit to us. It was simply a function of a long internal process and an honest belief that we had given players sufficient notice.
    We sincerely apologise to players who did not expect cuts as significant in 2016 as we announced on November 1st and recognize that some players may have chosen not to participate in the rewards program in 2015 had they known. Although we did not publicize it at the time, we did recognize that players might not be expecting as severe a decrease in awards, so we provided a higher level of reward in 2016 than originally planned and delayed implementing the full decrease in rewards until 2017. This was explicitly in recognition that players were grinding in 2015 in order to reap the maximum benefit for 2016.
    We believe that these freerolls are further affirmation of our commitment to bring more excitement and recreational players to PokerStars, which is good for ALL players.
    Most importantly, these changes are a critical component of our broad-based initiative to improve our online poker ecosystem by attracting more new players, improving the environment for recreational players and instituting loyalty programs that serve the majority of players.
    A tremendous amount of analysis goes into making these decisions by PokerStars. Our poker room management team is staffed with many former poker pros. And we have examined all possible scenarios. We are making these changes for the long term health of the poker ecosystem and to put in place a system that is sustainable.
    We will not alter those plans. The current VIP program is no longer fit for its purpose. When combined with the increasing skill gap in the online poker market, the result is an increasingly poor experience for recreational and new players.
    https://www.pokerstars.com/en/blog/c...1-159457.shtml


  10. #70
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Daniel's blog, which is basically trying to save face for Pokerstars. He said last week that he had in his head "the excellent blog, the good blog, and the bad blog", depending upon the results of his attempts to overturn the changes. This is clearly the bad blog.

    I know many of you have been waiting for me to post a blog about the controversial changes to the VIP program. Before I share my thoughts on all of it, I'd like to start from the very beginning and explain how this all took place and then how it was messaged from there on out.

    In October of 2014 PokerStars released a newsletter that said something to the effect of, "PokerStars is considering substantial changes to the VIP program in 2016." I'm going to share some facts with you that have likely never been made public, but they are facts and can be backed up by several people. Prior to that newsletter, significant VIP changes were scheduled to take place January 1, 2015! These had been agreed to by the previous owners and management. The reason that didn't happen was because of CEO David Baazov. Those inside the company were adamant that these changes needed to happen years ago and that it was imperative that they were made immediately. David was presented with plenty of internal data that showed quite clearly how the ecosystem was broken and that changes were inevitable considering both the escalated rate in which depositers were losing and the effect it had on the retention of these players.

    Personally, I have said for many years changes were necessary. I said so during the previous management, and I knew that the current system was unsustainable long term and changes were inevitable. I think most people who had access to the internal data agreed unanimously that if no changes were made, the player pool would continue to shrink. I'm not going to spend time debating or explaining this, but what I do want share is why these changes were delayed a full year until January 1st, 2016: David Baazov.

    It was David Baazov's decision to delay the changes a full year, because he felt it was the right thing to do. He felt as though it hadn't been communicated to players early enough, so despite understanding the necessity of the changes, he chose to give players an additional year of full benefits before making the cuts.

    Fast forward to November of 2015. It was decided that the highest tier of the VIP program, SuperNova Elite, be cut from 63% rakeback down to 30%. The SNE players are obviously the highest volume customers that contribute a substantial amount of rake to the company. It was discussed internally, and PRM (Poker Room Managment) stood firm that SNE players should get a bump from 30% to 45% for 2016.

    ************************************************** **********

    I've spent the last month having internal discussions in the hopes of delaying the changes until January 1st, 2017. We also discussed several other possibilities and I did my absolute best to find the best compromise possible for the players.

    The company has acknowledged that the communication of the changes was too vague, and we should have done a far better job being clear in the messaging. In the end, the result of my discussions with the company is that I can announce that PokerStars has agreed to put $4 million into the ecosystem in 2016 by holding quarterly $1 million free roll tournaments open to all players. Obviously the professional players will benefit most from these free rolls as they are most likely to cash, but it also offers the entire player base some value.

    I realize many of you will be disappointed that we couldn't delay the changes a full year. I'm also disappointed, but I promise you I did the absolute best I could to make sure the players voices were heard, and they were.

    On that note, I want to take full responsibility for my role in the communications breakdown between PokerStars and the players. I didn't write the messaging, but there was more I could have done to help avoid this that I failed to do. I had the opportunity to ask the right questions in October 2014 about when these changes would take effect, but I failed to do that. Had I been more involved at the time, I could have addressed this issue prior to January 1st, 2015 and make sure that the messaging to the players was crystal clear that cuts to the VIP program were going to be implemented in 2016. I could have also made sure that the website didn't have any language referencing specifics as to what players should expect in 2016 if they reached SNE in 2015.

    The fixes were quite simple, and I apologize for not being more up on this. I would have encouraged the messaging to be more clear, and for the website to have "to be determined" on the page that covers what benefits SNE players should expect rather than specific numbers.

    What we knew as a company on January 1, 2015 is that there would be cuts to the VIP program in 2016. However, they were still collecting data and weren't sure what exactly the changes would look like until the second half of 2015. It did say in the October 2014 newsletter that the details of the changes would be released in the second half of 2015. Despite that, I'm not at all OK with the way in which this information was relayed to the players.

    I was also able to ensure that players would have the opportunity to meet with the higher ups from here on out to discuss important issues in regards to the relationship between the company and the players. That has always been something PokerStars has done effectively, and it will continue to happen. I spoke with Dani Stern and Isaac Haxton as well as many other top online pros about joining me and the upper management in regularly scheduled meetings. I think this is extremely important. Communication the last 12-18 months between the players and the company has not been good enough and I think this will go a long way towards improving it.

    As far as my role with the company, what I'm committed to is making sure that nothing like this ever happens again. I'm extremely embarrassed by this communications blunder and I'm committed to making sure that from now on I am fully up to date and briefed on any and all new promotions and potential changes to any policies.

    As for the future, while this rightfully upset many players and was handled poorly, I am genuinely excited about the future. I do think there will be more players on PokerStars in 2016 than there was in 2015. I do believe that PokerStars is still the best place to to play online poker and will be going forward. I still believe they offer the best promotions, and I believe some of what's in store for 2016 and beyond will excite both professional and recreational players alike.
    LOL @ the $4 million in freerolls "open to all players". That's not at all compensation to pro players, and to suggest that it is ("because pros will win this") is laughable.


  11. #71
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Ryan Laplante posted this screen shot of DMs with Negreanu on November 2:

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Ryan Laplante posted this screen shot of DMs with Negreanu on November 2:

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    He's another one that shouldn't bet talking about ethics and integrity. I called him out for looking for a HUD to use on Bovada the other day and he plays stupid like he didn't know it was against the TOS. I call bullshit that he didn't know, it's pretty common knowledge










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    I looks like the three day player boycott has backfired big-time.

    Pokerstars has released a statement that says the planned changes will go ahead as planned. The 'strike' period has given them even more confidence that their future strategy is correct.

    It has also announced 4x $1,000,000 Freerolls.

    http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/en/blo...1-159457.shtml

    We are happy to announce plans to hold four $1 million freeroll tournaments in 2016 on PokerStars. These tournaments will surely create buzz and generate excitement among players at all skill and experience levels and the injection of $4 million into the economy will help many players' bankrolls. These tournaments will be on top of an already exciting - though not-yet-announced - series of promotions, events and new products that are planned for 2016.

    We're doing everything we can to make 2016 an exciting year for poker, but recognize that 2015 has been tough for many of our players. This year has been difficult for our depositing customers who have seen a reduction in their purchasing power of close to 20% due to the strengthening of the US dollar, the primary currency of poker gameplay, vs their local currencies, most notably the Euro and other European currencies. This has reduced the value of their deposits meaning they are unable to play as long as before with the same amount of money, exacerbating issues of retention of new and casual players we have already seen over the past few years due to an increasing imbalance in the ecosystem. While we cannot influence where currency exchange rates will go, we can make changes that we believe will improve retention of such players by lengthening the time they will be able to play, allowing them to have more fun at poker and hopefully becoming a lifetime player.

    We have been taking steps - across the whole business - to address these changes. The recent three-day boycott by some players that disagree with our announced VIP changes did not have a significant impact on PokerStars, as traffic actually spiked through the period as a result of the start of our long-planned holiday promotion.

    Of course that doesn't mean it went unnoticed by us. We care very deeply about what players say and what they expect of us. And we strive to live up to their expectations.

    Some of our players feel we have not met their expectations in the recently announced changes to the PokerStars VIP program. Indeed, some players who support the VIP changes feel we should have done a better job communicating the changes. We first announced that there would be significant changes to the 2016 VIP program in October 2014, following a comprehensive review we had undertaken earlier that year, and repeated this several times throughout 2015, including telling players that details would be provided in October. In fact, we had considered making significant VIP changes to take effect in January 2015, but our new ownership at Amaya chose to delay the changes for another year.

    In hindsight, we could have communicated to players more often that significant changes were coming in 2016. We could have been more explicit that these changes would be significant and would take effect in 2016. And we could have noted this on our VIP web pages that gave details of the program. There was no intention to deceive and certainly not to profit from this, as an increase in the number of Supernova Elites, who are on average net withdrawing players, does not provide a financial benefit to us. It was simply a function of a long internal process and an honest belief that we had given players sufficient notice.

    We sincerely apologise to players who did not expect cuts as significant in 2016 as we announced on November 1st and recognize that some players may have chosen not to participate in the rewards program in 2015 had they known. Although we did not publicize it at the time, we did recognize that players might not be expecting as severe a decrease in awards, so we provided a higher level of reward in 2016 than originally planned and delayed implementing the full decrease in rewards until 2017. This was explicitly in recognition that players were grinding in 2015 in order to reap the maximum benefit for 2016.

    We believe that these freerolls are further affirmation of our commitment to bring more excitement and recreational players to PokerStars, which is good for ALL players.

    Most importantly, these changes are a critical component of our broad-based initiative to improve our online poker ecosystem by attracting more new players, improving the environment for recreational players and instituting loyalty programs that serve the majority of players.

    A tremendous amount of analysis goes into making these decisions by PokerStars. Our poker room management team is staffed with many former poker pros. And we have examined all possible scenarios. We are making these changes for the long term health of the poker ecosystem and to put in place a system that is sustainable.

    We will not alter those plans. The current VIP program is no longer fit for its purpose. When combined with the increasing skill gap in the online poker market, the result is an increasingly poor experience for recreational and new players.

    Changes are needed and we are making them. The funds that previously went to these rewards will be placed in more and bigger online promotions, more consumer marketing campaigns to attract new players and research and development of innovative new products and features. We have mass consumer marketing campaigns featuring Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar Jr; we're launching innovative new poker variants that take advantage of mobile platforms, social gaming and the popularity of other card-based strategy games and e-Sports; and levelling the playing field for recreational and new players by restricting the use of third party software and data mining that give an unfair edge to professionals.

    As we have in the past, we will continue to make changes to ensure our ecosystem is healthy and vibrant. We know and understand that players won't always agree with these changes. We'll do our best to communicate them early and with as much transparency and frequency as possible.

    In that spirit of transparency, we can tell you that we did see effects from the recent boycott that give us even greater confidence that our strategy is on the right track to improve the health of the ecosystem. During the three-day boycott we recorded the healthiest consecutive three-day ecosystem results of the year with steady net gaming revenue, even though our net-depositing players lost at a much lower rate than they have all year. As we have seen with Spin & Go's, which have higher retention levels than cash games due to the increased winning experiences provided to all players, we believe this decreased loss rate will result in those players' deposits lasting longer and retention rates improving, resulting in more deposits and more money in the system because players are enjoying their time at the tables more. This is the right foundation for us to build upon.

    Our commitment to poker is as strong as ever. We believe that our actions will demonstrate this in the months and years ahead.

  14. #74
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    Let's see these SNE regs boycott Pokerstars permanently. Only the rakeback grinder who can't win / barely wins without the perks might go away but some of these others like the $5/10 + guys who get no VPPs aren't leaving.

    The harsh reality is many of these players aren't qualified for jobs that would make them even close to what they make in poker.

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    Cubic Zirconia Dicepops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Amaya is coughing up a lung.

    52 week low. About to drill $18? CA:AYA I only trade/follow in Canadian $. U.S. market is too thinly traded.

    These guys have a fucking problem. I don't see any news except for recent analysts downgrades. You'd think all long term investors/holders would have bailed by now.

    Something's up. Something bad. Good luck grinders.

    I sold for a quick short scalp when it drilled $18.75 the second time today. When your stuck for ideas there are always the casino stocks.

    So I ask myself is it a buy on another move below $18? It's so putrid with no good news. I wouldn't touch it.

    But wait, this often is the best time to take a look. When you have to fight that gag reflex. That's a good sign.

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    Is anybody saying this stock drop is reasons for announced changes or caused by the changes? I'm thinking the FORMER...just sayin'

  16. #76
    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dicepops View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Amaya is coughing up a lung.

    52 week low. About to drill $18? CA:AYA I only trade/follow in Canadian $. U.S. market is too thinly traded.

    These guys have a fucking problem. I don't see any news except for recent analysts downgrades. You'd think all long term investors/holders would have bailed by now.

    Something's up. Something bad. Good luck grinders.

    I sold for a quick short scalp when it drilled $18.75 the second time today. When your stuck for ideas there are always the casino stocks.

    So I ask myself is it a buy on another move below $18? It's so putrid with no good news. I wouldn't touch it.

    But wait, this often is the best time to take a look. When you have to fight that gag reflex. That's a good sign.

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    Is anybody saying this stock drop is reasons for announced changes or caused by the changes? I'm thinking the FORMER...just sayin'
    The drop happened after they announced their quarterly earnings and discussed their prospects for their future.

    The earnings were not as good as they had promised previously. Worse, the bad news was a surprise. Nobody likes that.

    The picture management painted for the future does not look as bright as most stockholders had dreamed. You're either growing or shrinking. They are shrinking. The stockholders said, "fuck that" and sold.

    PokerStars/Amaya was all about adding stuff and getting bigger. They are a little smaller going forward. Not good when you are deeply in debt with borrowed money.

    The grinder thing was more a symptom of some of the financial trouble PokerStars is having. In the end, poker is shrinking. They need fresh faces. Lots of them.

    The stock drop was not because they fucked over the players.

    There is a piece of me that thinks Amaya believes shoving a stick up the pro grinders ass will make them loveable to the amateurs. So they save money and get a greater number of housewives and kids. Win win.
    Last edited by Sanlmar; 12-11-2015 at 10:49 PM.

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    Platinum FRANKRIZZO's Avatar
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    So now Daniel Negranu is claiming it was all a huge miscommunication and these changes where scheduled all along. So much for quitting he back on pokerstars miss information wagon.

  18. #78
    Platinum ftpjesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKRIZZO View Post
    So now Daniel Negranu is claiming it was all a huge miscommunication and these changes where scheduled all along. So much for quitting he back on pokerstars miss information wagon.
    As of an hour ago Alex Millar announced he has left his position as an online pro for PS as he feels what happened was wrong and takes a swipe at Daniel N as a parting shot.

    https://twitter.com/kanupoker/status/676878243971100672

    https://twitter.com/kanupoker/status/676878299151339521

  19. #79
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    ChicagoJoey had Mason Malmuth back on his podcast a few days ago. About 3 minutes or so into the video he starts giving his thoughts on Pokerstars and obviously he brings up Negreanu failing in this approach to helping the players.

    Mason agrees Pokerstars shit the bed with the timing of announcing the SNE cuts but he confirms even more how he's a bitter old man.


  20. #80
    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
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    ChicagoJoey & Mason Malmuth together for 1:30. You can't make this shit up. The premise is so funny I hate to spoil it by watching.

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