Druff's tale of a NL suckout downer spurs a strategy question: How best to manage NL suckout risk?

[MumblesBadly]

I just listened to the PFA Radio show episode where Druff mentioned how he hates losing big pots in NL when opponent suck out on him. And he discussed how he lost in one hand a $3000 stack he had "slowly run up from $2000" at a 10/20 NL game at the Bellagio he sat at while waiting for a seat at a big limit game. (In the Ar-chive: 05/05/2015 @4:31:00)

When I heard this story, I thought of how some winning mid-stakes TA NL players I have known might have played that hand to manage big stack suck out risk. Before sharing what I learned from those players, I invite comments from the successful NL players here.

Here's the setup:

1) With his poker-spidey sense, and holding QJ offsuit in the big blind, Druff correctly guessed that a bad player who min-raised UTG had AA, and called to potentially snap him off.

2) The flop was Q-high rainbow, Druff checked his top pair, the villain bet, and Druff called.

3) The turn was a J, giving Druff two pair. Druff checked, the villain bet, Druff raised, the villain re-raised all-in, and Druff called the all-in with his whole stack

4) The river gave the villain two-pair (aces up), and Druff got up from the table stunned and down that he had lost his entire stack in one hand because of that suck-out.

Now for the question: Assuming you were in the exact same situation, had the same read on the villain's pocket AA as Druff, and called pre-flop and on the flop just as Druff did, how would you have played the turn to reduce the likelihood of getting stacked on a suckout? Better answers should include getting decent value for making a cheap-but-speculative call pre-flop amd being OOP post-flop.

And thanks in advance for not replying with idiotic trolling.

[gauchojake]

[herbertstemple]

Limit poker is for serious poker players.

NL is for everybody else.

[VegasJim]

I just listened to the PFA Radio show episode where Druff mentioned how he hates losing big pots in NL when opponent suck out on him. And he discussed how he lost in one hand a $3000 stack he had "slowly run up from $2000" at a 10/20 NL game at the Bellagio he sat at while waiting for a seat at a big limit game. (In the Ar-chive: 05/05/2015 @4:31:00)

When I heard this story, I thought of how some winning mid-stakes TA NL players I have known might have played that hand to manage big stack suck out risk. Before sharing what I learned from those players, I invite comments from the successful NL players here.

Here's the setup:

1) With his poker-spidey sense, and holding QJ offsuit in the big blind, Druff correctly guessed that a bad player who min-raised UTG had AA, and called to potentially snap him off.

2) The flop was Q-high rainbow, Druff checked his top pair, the villain bet, and Druff called.

3) The turn was a J, giving Druff two pair. Druff checked, the villain bet, Druff raised, the villain re-raised all-in, and Druff called the all-in with his whole stack

4) The river gave the villain two-pair (aces up), and Druff got up from the table stunned and down that he had lost his entire stack in one hand because of that suck-out.

Now for the question: Assuming you were in the exact same situation, had the same read on the villain's pocket AA as Druff, and called pre-flop and on the flop just as Druff did, how would you have played the turn to reduce the likelihood of getting stacked on a suckout? Better answers should include getting decent value for making a cheap-but-speculative call pre-flop amd being OOP post-flop.

And thanks in advance for not replying with idiotic trolling.

We all hate losing big pots and getting sucked out on, its all about how you handle it.

Not enough info for me to give my opinion as far as how to play the hand. How did the hand play out? Or can you tell me the radio show and time he starts talking about the hand? If druff gave reads on player etc. that helps obv. Going off what you wrote, I pray to get my stack in on turn as an 80% favorite. I play 2-5 and 5-5 that plays out like 5-10 with unlimited straddles and Mississippi straddles.

[ToasterOven]

Can't. Be. Real.

[MumblesBadly]

I just listened to the PFA Radio show episode where Druff mentioned how he hates losing big pots in NL when opponent suck out on him. And he discussed how he lost in one hand a $3000 stack he had "slowly run up from $2000" at a 10/20 NL game at the Bellagio he sat at while waiting for a seat at a big limit game. (In the Ar-chive: 05/05/2015 @4:31:00)

When I heard this story, I thought of how some winning mid-stakes TA NL players I have known might have played that hand to manage big stack suck out risk. Before sharing what I learned from those players, I invite comments from the successful NL players here.

Here's the setup:

1) With his poker-spidey sense, and holding QJ offsuit in the big blind, Druff correctly guessed that a bad player who min-raised UTG had AA, and called to potentially snap him off.

2) The flop was Q-high rainbow, Druff checked his top pair, the villain bet, and Druff called.

3) The turn was a J, giving Druff two pair. Druff checked, the villain bet, Druff raised, the villain re-raised all-in, and Druff called the all-in with his whole stack

4) The river gave the villain two-pair (aces up), and Druff got up from the table stunned and down that he had lost his entire stack in one hand because of that suck-out.

Now for the question: Assuming you were in the exact same situation, had the same read on the villain's pocket AA as Druff, and called pre-flop and on the flop just as Druff did, how would you have played the turn to reduce the likelihood of getting stacked on a suckout? Better answers should include getting decent value for making a cheap-but-speculative call pre-flop amd being OOP post-flop.

And thanks in advance for not replying with idiotic trolling.

We all hate losing big pots and getting sucked out on, its all about how you handle it.

Not enough info for me to give my opinion as far as how to play the hand. How did the hand play out? Or can you tell me the radio show and time he starts talking about the hand? If druff gave reads on player etc. that helps obv. Going off what you wrote, I pray to get my stack in on turn as an 80% favorite. I play 2-5 and 5-5 that plays out like 5-10 with unlimited straddles and Mississippi straddles.

The only info I have is from the radio show, which I indicated above. See bolded text in first paragraph above for radio show date and time stamp for when Druff starts explaining.

And perhaps Druff could respond and provide more details about the size of the betting/raises after the flop.

[MumblesBadly]

Limit poker is for serious poker players.

NL is for everybody else.

Any particular type of poker is for the players who can beat the game. If you are great at limit but good games are hard to find, what is the value of only playing limit except to enjoy the comraderie of a circle jerk of fellow bragful limit players?

Meanwhile, other forms of poker are relatively awash in fish waiting for good players to school them on that game (NL still, and increasingly PLO, which a buddy of mine makes a decent living at playing only on the weekends at Borgata.). But, go ahead, and circle jerk while limit poker eventually joins 5-card draw and 7-card stud in the "Hall of Once-Popular Poker Games".

[MumblesBadly]

I just listened to the PFA Radio show episode where Druff mentioned how he hates losing big pots in NL when opponent suck out on him. And he discussed how he lost in one hand a $3000 stack he had "slowly run up from $2000" at a 10/20 NL game at the Bellagio he sat at while waiting for a seat at a big limit game. (In the Ar-chive: 05/05/2015 @4:31:00)

We all hate losing big pots and getting sucked out on, its all about how you handle it.

Not enough info for me to give my opinion as far as how to play the hand. How did the hand play out? Or can you tell me the radio show and time he starts talking about the hand? If druff gave reads on player etc. that helps obv. Going off what you wrote, I pray to get my stack in on turn as an 80% favorite. I play 2-5 and 5-5 that plays out like 5-10 with unlimited straddles and Mississippi straddles.

Actually, it's more than just handling it after you get sucked out, but also managing how likely you are to get sucked out. And that depends upon your understanding of how you will react to that happening. Because while we all wish we could wave a magic wand after getting sucked out and continue playing our "A" game, that just isn't realistic for the vast majority of players.

So until most players can replace their human brain with a very good bot for the game they want to play, it would be wise for them to learn how to effectively reduce their likelihood of getting sucked out of a huge stack if or when they think they are likely to react badly to it happening.

[delaware]

the hand was played perfect. druff knowing the player had a a is just not possible. this is a lose that might hurt a little but druff played it perfect.when the jack hit thats when i would have gone all in. you needed more chips for any chance to wn. i might have put you on trip jacks when you went all in when the jack hit. always come to the table with max buy in.and in druff case you respect money to much to play no limit.

[sonatine]

It was coming up to the week of the dance and I was panicking. I had tried talking to Ava to get out of it, but she was avoiding me like the plague. Every time I got near her she would basically run the opposite way. One day I managed to get her to stay for a second so that I could reason with her but then she ended up slapping me on the face. To say that we 'made a scene' would've been an understatement. So, I've given up on trying to talk to her and now I'm currently trying to think up a Plan B while I'm serving my last week of detention.

Maybe I could talk to Vincent again and try to convey to him that I really don't want to be expelled just for a dance. No... I can't say that to him, it'll sound to weak and whiny, he'll beat me up for sure. Or maybe I could --

I was jarred out of my thoughts by a hissing sound that was coming from the desk next to me. I was startled because I didn't even realize that anyone was sitting there. I turned my head to the right to look at the person next to me and he just stared back at me. I, obviously, didn't recognize him but maybe he knew me.

So I, reluctantly said, "Hi,"

Even after I said that he just stared at me, which I thought was very bizarre. While he was staring I surveyed him. The first thing I noticed was that he had these piercing green eyes that seemed to burn a hole through me. He wore this leather jacket that he looked like he'd worn it out a lot. I guess he had a nice enough face but there was something about him that unsettled me.

I cleared my throat to indicate that he should say something. It seemed to knock him out of his trance, "Oh sorry, people say that I stare a lot. It kinda creeps them out."

Yeah, no kidding.

"Oh, I'm Nathan." He said frankly as he put out his hand for me to shake. Again, another thing that was weird. Who shakes hands anymore?

Either way I quickly shook his hand and said, "Okay, hi," then I turned away from him because it was getting awkward.

"Hey, aren't you going to introduce yourself, that's usually how this goes." I looked over at him and he seemed offended.

"Oh, I just thought you already knew who I was."

He looked confused, "What are you a celebrity or something? How am I supposed to know who you are?" He said in a sharp tone.

I was starting to get irritated by his sudden attitude change. "No, it's just that everyone at school seems to know who I am and I don't remember anyone so I just assumed that you knew me and I didn't remember." I said in a huff.

"What do you have amnesia or something?" He sounded like he was joking but I wasn't laughing.

"Yes, I do have amnesia." I said sternly. He just looked stunned, like he couldn't believe it and he looked like he wanted to say more, but before he could, I got up and moved to another desk away from him.

The detention monitor looked up from the magazine. "There's no talking in detention." He said quickly and then looked back down at his magazine. What a joke, this guy doesn't want to be here anymore than we do.

The rest of detention was very tense for me. I could feel that Nathan guy staring at me for the entire hour. Usually I use this quiet time to think about all my problems and possibly figure out how to fix them, but today all I could think about was how rude and annoying and... weird that kid was.

* * * * * * * * * *

As soon as detention was done I quickly bolted out of my seat and headed for the door. I didn't want to feel the uncomfortable stare of that guy anymore. I was walking down the hall when I heard feet quickly approaching and someone shouting, "Hey wait up!"

I looked back and, sure enough, Nathan was running down the hall toward me. I wanted to run away but I thought that would be too childish so I turned toward him and crossed my arms.

"What do you want?" I said gruffly.

He looked guilty, "I'm really sorry. I-- I honestly didn't know. Let me explain. I'm new here. I just transferred to this school a week ago."

"Yeah, I have some personal issues as well." He said defensively.

"Look man, I didn't mean it like that. I guess I was being too sensitive earlier. It's just, my amnesia is a sore subject for me." He still looked a bit miffed so I started walking away, but to my surprise he followed my lead and walked beside me.

"Well, as I was saying. I'm new here and I don't know anyone and I'm kind of lonely. Then I went to detention and saw you in there looking lonely as well, so I thought maybe I could introduce myself and we could be friends. I mean we have the detention thing in common... and the loneliness."

"I wasn't lonely. I was just sitting in there, silently, because in detention that's all you're allowed to do." I corrected.

He brushed off my comment like I didn't even say anything, "Hey, I never caught your name."

"I'm Matt."

"Well, hi Matt." He said in a way too cheery voice for it to be sincere. "But let's get back to the amnesia thing. That's so fascinating, how did it happen?"

Is he for real? I stopped walking and looked at him, "That's a bit of a personal question, don't you think."

He looked confused like he didn't understand, "I don't think it's personal. If I had amnesia and you wanted to know how I got it, I'd tell you."

"Well, once you get amnesia we'll talk, but until then I think I'm just gonna go home."

I turned from him and started walking to the parking lot but I could tell he was still following me. Then he hustled up to me and kept walking in step with me.

"I'm sorry, again, Matt. I guess I'm not good with personal boundaries." He said sheepishly.

"It seems like you have no boundaries." I remarked sharply as I walked a bit faster.

"Well either way, we got off to a rocky start but I'm able to move past it if you are." He said enthusiastically.

I was so confused. What did he want? I turned and looked at him intently, "Look, Nathan. I really don't mean to be rude but I've got a lot on my mind right now and I'd rather just be alone." I said exasperatedly.

I thought he would finally take the hint, but he didn't even budge an inch, he just stared at me, again.Then he finally said, "Well I think that you can solve any problem if you just talk it out."

He couldn't be serious," I really don't know you, so I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. I really gotta--"

He cut me off, "No I insist just unload. I'm a very good listener."

"You're obviously not." I snapped.

He looked offended and his demeanor changed again, "Hey, what the fuck's that supposed to mean?" It was weird how quickly his moods seemed to change.

"I already have enough problems as it is. I don't need some weird, new kid coming into my life and making it even more complicated."

"Oh, I'm the weird one? You're the one with the memory loss, you probably don't know what day it is. Whatever man, I was just trying to help."

I was stunned, why was he getting so worked up? "Fine! You wanna know so badly, okay. My problem right now is that I had this girlfriend. She was my girlfriend before my accident that caused the amnesia. Well, apparently I was supposed to go to some dumbass dance with her. I, obviously, didn't remember that and also the worse part is I just broke up with her a couple days ago. She tried to act like I betrayed her, whatever. Then the next day she gets her goon of a brother to come and threaten me in order to take her to the dance. But here's the best part. I can't even go to that goddamn dance, even if I wanted to because I'm literally forbidden from going to any school events. I might be expelled if I go to that dance, but I'll probably have to go otherwise I'll get beaten up by her brother and his friends." I think I might be having a mental break.

"So, are you happy?! You got me to unload all my shit unto you. Has the problem been solved yet?!" I yelled sarcastically, with my hands raised in frustrated.

He just looked at me with one eyebrow raised and his arms crossed, "You're very interesting," Then he walked away.

I was so baffled by that experience and also mortified that I told him all my problems. I don't even know him. What the fuck was I thinking?

__________________________________________________ ___________

I was so caught up in my interaction with Nathan that I wasn't thinking straight. So, I totally forgot that Kevin said he wanted to meet up with me at my house after school. It's all part of our 'trying to become friends again' thing. I'm still not sure about Kevin, I can't tell if he's going to be good for me or not.

Either way, like I said, I didn't expect him so when I got to my room I almost had a heart attack when I saw him sitting on my bed.

I stepped backwards a bit in shock, then recovered quickly to glare at the smirk that was forming on his face.

"What the hell dude?!" I yelled at him as I threw my backpack at his smug face.

He easily dodged it and laughed, "You should've seen your face, you were like," he imitated my face in an over-exaggerated way, with his hand clutching his chest and a wide eyed expression on his face.

"Calm down? How am I supposed to act when I find someone lurking in my room. I totally forgot you were coming over." Then I looked him over, he looked like he'd been lounging in my room for awhile. "How long have you been here?"

He looked at his wrist which had no watch on it. "Oh, for like... an hour or so." He replied with a shrug.

I was a little taken back that he'd been in my room, by himself, for so long. It felt like an invasion of privacy. "I have so many questions about that, but let me just ask, How did you get in here?"

He looked at me like I was crazy, "Christine let me in, of course. It's not like I broke in or something, so you can stop looking at me like that."

I reluctantly sat down next to him on the bed, "Did you used to do this a lot, you know like -- before?"

He looked down in thought, "Yeah, I guess so. I never really thought about it much. It was just second nature for one of us to be at the other's house. We used to hang out all the time." Then he got this far off look in his eyes. That seemed to be a common look with people around me when they told me something from my past.

I wanted to change the subject because that look was making me uncomfortable. "Hey, do you know someone named Nathan?"

He looked confused at my random question, "Nathan who?"

I sighed, "I don't know, that's why I'm asking you."

"Well can you tell me what he looks like?"

"I don't know, he's got kinda darkish hair, average build, and these piercing green eyes that stare way too much."

He squinted his eyes in thought, then he looked like he remembered something, "Oh, are you talking about that new kid? I think I've seen him around. He wears a leather jacket all the time, right? Yeah, some people who've talked to him say he's...intense. I just think he's weird."

"For once, I can agree. He's really weird."

He looked at me suspiciously, "Why are you asking about him?"

"Because he approached me in detention. He was kinda rude and then he later tried to apologize, but then his mood kept changing quickly, it was weird. Then I kind of yelled at him about my problems and he just walked away. It was bizarre."

He was silent for a moment and then he looked at me with a worried look, "You really have some anger issues now, don't you." He said it more as a statement, not like a question.

"I guess I'm kind of quick to lose my temper but it's nothing that unusual, I don't think."

"Nah man, you're more than that. I mean you first beat Sam to a bloody pulp and then you punched me. You might not remember but we never fought like that before."

I was getting a little annoyed when he brought up our fight, again. "You know that I was provoked both times," I said sternly.

He looked on edge, "Hey man, I'm not trying to start another fight, I was just stating an observation I had."

I couldn't keep snapping at Kevin about our fight, but he has to know why I'm so upset about our fight. I sighed and looked at him hesitantly, "Kev, I have something that I should tell you before we try to become friends again."

He looked hurt by my comment, but I wasn't sure why. "Dude, we never stopped being friends."

I gave a nervous laugh, "Oh yeah, sorry," I didn't think I would be so bothered about what Kevin thought of me. But I knew what I was about to confess was going to be big.

"Why do you seem so nervous?"

I should remember that if things don't go well it's not like I really remember him being my friend anyway, so I wouldn't really be losing much. I looked away from him so that I could go through with it.

"I think you need to know why I fought with you."

He waved his hand, "Dude, it's okay, we don't need to keep bringing it up. I'm over it."

"Well I'm not and you need to know why."

"Okay, go ahead,"

"See, there's someone who's really important to me. Someone who I really happen to like a lot. And that day that we got into a fight. It was because of my memory of that person and how you insulted-- that person." I said this all while looking down at my hands.

Kevin face was contorted in confusion, "But your memory was about that Cole kid."

He wasn't quite getting it, "Yeah, that's right."

I waited and let him put two and two together. When he did he looked at me with a dumbstruck look. "Matt, what are you telling me?"

I knew that he understood, but I could tell he needed to hear it from me. I just didn't know how to say it. "Cole and I are together."

Kevin stood up off the bed and turned to face me with a frown. "What do you mean together? Like in the church choir? What the fuck is 'together' supposed to mean?"

I stood up and matched his stance. He wasn't going to intimidate me in my own room. "Don't act dumb, you know exactly what I mean."

"No, I don't know. Because what you 'mean' doesn't make sense to me. Just a couple weeks ago you had a girlfriend and now your saying your with Cole fucking Blume. Are you outta your goddamn mind?! No, I'll answer that for you. Of course you are. You don't just go from straight to gay with one head injury."

I wasn't sure why he was so mad, but two can play at this game. "Stop trying to act like you know everything about me. Maybe, I had secrets that I never told you before the accident and now they're just manifesting themselves."

"So what are you trying to say, you were fucking Cole even before the accident? That's nice what a class act you are!" He looked at me with a scowl.

"Fuck you, I don't have to justify anything to you. You said you were fine with me hanging out with Cole a couple days ago."

"That's before I knew he was sucking your dick."

God, he's such an asshole. I got right in his face, "You know what I don't even know why I bother with you. You say that you want to have a friendship with me and then you act like this. Get the fuck outta my house." I shoved him towards the door.

He looked shaken out of his disposition, "I don't know what to say." He said quietly.

"You've said more than enough."

"No, no, I did say that I wanted to fix our friendship so we definitely need to talk about this, not yell. We can't keep yelling at each other." He remarked sadly.

He sat back down on the bed in submission and looked up at me. I was still a bit heated though, so I stayed standing and looked down at him.

"What's there to talk about. I told you what I needed to tell you and you responded badly. Conversation over."

He looked defeated, "No. Conversation not over. Matt please sit down and talk with me. I'm willing to listen." I looked at him skeptically. "And I'll try not to be an asshole about it." He sighed.

I reluctantly sat down next to him and waited for him to start.

"So... you're fucking Cole?" He said with a smirk.

I immediately snapped my head towards him and looked furious. Before I could say anything, he put his hands up defensively, "Hey, man it was a joke. It was a joke. Just to lighten the mood. You're so uptight anymore." He laughed, "But seriously, what the fuck's going on?"

I shrugged, "I don't know man. I'm not really sure how I felt before but now I definitely know that I like Cole. I think I might have felt this way before but I just couldn't admit it to myself or anyone else. I mean it's not a big deal... is it?" I asked, suddenly feeling unsure of myself.

He looked me in the eye and said sincerely, "Yes, it is a big deal. This changes everything."

"Why does it have to change anything? No, I'm serious. I don't get why the person who I choose to be with affects you at all. The only people my relationship should concern are me and Cole."

"Yeah, well tell that to the kids at school." Kevin huffed.

"I will. Honestly, I don't give a fuck what they think."

He looked at me seriously, "What's so special about him?"

"I don't know... but I'm planning to find out."

__________________________________________________ _________



I was feeling pretty good about talking things over with Kevin. Even though he still seemed a bit reluctant to accept my relationship with Cole, but he was willing to try. I would've been fine even if he hadn't been willing to accept it, but I'm secretly glad that he was. I know how important Kevin was to the 'old' me and I still feel a connection towards him.

When I got to school the next day I felt good about my small success with Kevin that I forgot about my actual problems. That is, until my problems walked right up to me. And by that I mean: Ava was standing right in front of me.

The weirdest thing was that she stood in front of me looking very nervous and unsure of herself, which is very out of character for her. She usually walks around like she owns the world and everyone in it. But today she looks like someone just punched her in the stomach.

I was kind of concerned, "Hey Ava, are you okay?" I put my hands on her shoulders to steady her but she shrugged me off quickly.

"Yeah, I'm fine. I just came over here to tell you something." she looked away nervously as she spoke. "Go ahead," I murmured suspiciously.

"Um..." she twirled her hair in her finger and again, looked off into the distance before turning her attention back to me. "You know how I wanted you to go with me to the Winter Formal."

Ugh, this dumb dance again! I rolled my eyes, "Yeah, what about it?"

"Well, I thought about it and decided that.... you really don't need to go with me. I mean we are bro--broken up after all," She was stumbling over her words and looking hesitant. This was really not like her.

"Are you sure you're okay?"

"Yeah, yes, of course I'm okay. But don't worry, I understand. You're totally off the hook. You don't need to go with me."

"Okay, okay I get it. You're saying the same thing in a hundred different ways." I said with a smirk, but she was doing anything but laughing, she looked perturbed. "Are you sure you're okay? You seem...off."

She shook her head vigorously, "Yep, I'm good." Then she looked at me for a second like she was trying to memorize my face, then she said, "Bye Matt," and basically ran away.

That was probably the weirdest thing that's happened to me... and I have amnesia. I brushed off that weird interaction and walked down the hall. I was turning the corner when I saw a person leaning against the wall, looking very casual. Almost too casual since they appeared to be waiting for someone. Whoever it was, was giving off a very ominous demeanor.

I tried to avoid them as I walked down the hall. Then the person started walking towards me and I immediately realized who it was. I tried to back track my steps and discreetly walk the other way but the person noticed and sped up towards me.

"Hey Matt!"

I reluctantly turned around and I was facing Nathan with his leather jacket still on, "Hi, Nathan, I was just headed to class." I said while pointing in a general direction.

"Oh, yeah? Well, I can walk with you." He said with a smile. When he smiles he looks more handsome and less creepy.

I tried not to roll my eyes, "Okay," I started walking and he followed suit.

We were walking next to each other for awhile before he said anything, "Whoa, do you hear that?"

I looked at him like he was crazy (which he very well might be),"Hear what?"

"The whispers. Everyone in this hallway seems to be looking in your direction and whispering about something."

I looked around as we kept walking and I did notice a couple people looking at me, but I didn't think much of it.

"I think you're just imagining things. Some people just happen to be looking in my direction and talking, it's just a coincidence," I shrugged.

He turned his head to me and looked at me like I was an idiot, "No man. You're like a celebrity here. Everyone seems to be talking about you or wants to know more about you. I don't blame them," He said the last part under his breath but I still heard it."

I was about to refute when a familiar face came into view and I instantly blocked everything else out. As Cole walked towards me, everyone else seemed to fade away. Just seeing him brightens my day. Then I noticed that Nathan was staring at me because I had stopped in the middle of the hallway while we were walking. I instantly had a sinking in my stomach as I thought about Cole meeting Nathan. I suddenly felt very protective of Cole. For some reason I didn't want Cole to have to experience the weirdness that is Nathan.

Cole stood right in front of us looking like he didn't have a care in the world, while I was mentally trying to run away.

"Hey Matt and..." He looked over in Nathan's direction as if he wanted me to introduce them.

Before I could say anything Nathan jumped slightly in front of me and put out his hand, "Hello, I'm Nathan." as he shook Cole's hand. He looked confused so Nathan elaborated,"Matt and I, met in detention and I'm new here so he was just showing me around." He replied with a big smile as he patted me on the shoulder.

Cole just smiled and looked between the two of us, "Oh, I'm Cole Blume, by the way."

"Nice to meet you. Did anyone ever tell you that you have a very interesting last name." Nathan was acting so different towards Cole versus the way he acts towards me. He seemed almost charming.

Cole laughed, "Oh please, everyone usually kids me about my last name. They usually make some joke about it being like a flower, you know because of the 'bloom' thing."

"Huh, well they're actually right. The word for flower in German is blume." Nathan remarked, now completely ignoring my presence. I was a bit annoyed.

"Oh, now you know German." I said sarcastically.

They both ignored me though and Cole went on, "Well I guess you learn something new everyday. You know I think my father's side of the family comes from Germany."

"They do?" I said inquisitively. But I must have been like the wind to them because neither of them looked my way.

"Oh, I've gotta get to class but we should catch up again sometime." Cole said towards Nathan then he looked towards me and smiled, "See you later Matt."

All I could muster out was a breathy ,"Bye," before he was gone and I was completely baffled.

Then Nathan looked at me and smiled, "He's kinda cute."

I was dumbfounded. Did he really just say that about my -- Cole? "What?" I managed to squeak out.

He casually waved his hand, "Hey, no harm in looking. But anyways there is something I wanted to tell you."

I officially did not want to talk to him anymore so I just started walking away to go to my next class. But he shouted after me, "Hey, if you don't want to know what I did for you, then fine."

I looked back at him with confusion and he walked up to me with an amused look, "I knew you'd be curious."

" What did you do for me?" I asked under my breath.

"Oh, nothing. I just got you out of going to the dance with Ava. She did tell you right?" He said calmly as he looked down at his hand.

I got a cold feeling from his calmness, "What do you mean? Ava came up to me today but what did that have to do with you?"

He raised an eyebrow at me then shrugged, "Well, let's just say I convinced her that there is no way that you would be able to go to that dance with her."

"What?!" I stumbled over my words and my feet, "How did-- why did you? What?"

He just shrugged again with a satisfied smirk on his face. I was about to ask again, what he did, then the bell rang signaling that class was starting. He casually walked away. I watched, in shock as he walked down the hall.

Who is this guy?

[GrenadaRoger]

Druff played the hand correctly...when the money went in the villain had only 5 outs on the river, about 12% chance, and sometimes those things will happen

so really this is not a problem of poker strategy but rather one about risk & bankroll management...a $3,000 loss shouldn't be devastating to Druff's bankroll, if it is he is playing at too high stakes...do some online research on risk management and Kelly criteria to get some idea of how much should be put at risk in any one hand...

Druff has/had a shitload on money for poker, so 3000 at risk should be acceptable...thus it is more likely psychology: Druff can't stand the downward fluctuations of NL when 3000 is involved, a lot of people can't...although the potential for such a loss is the price one has to pay for the potential of a similar sized win.

[chinamaniac]

TODD IS GOD/thread

[MumblesBadly]

Druff played the hand correctly...when the money went in the villain had only 5 outs on the river, about 12% chance, and sometimes those things will happen

so really this is not a problem of poker strategy but rather one about risk & bankroll management...a $3,000 loss shouldn't be devastating to Druff's bankroll, if it is he is playing at too high stakes...do some online research on risk management and Kelly criteria to get some idea of how much should be put at risk in any one hand...

Druff has/had a shitload on money for poker, so 3000 at risk should be acceptable...thus it is more likely psychology: Druff can't stand the downward fluctuations of NL when 3000 is involved, a lot of people can't...although the potential for such a loss is the price one has to pay for the potential of a similar sized win.

The bolded text above is the key to whether someone should deviate from optimal EV play to reduce variance. For a player with a sufficient bankroll who won't tilt, reducing variance at the cost of EV is a bad decision. But for a player who doesn't want to deal with the emotional fallout of a bad beat when they have invested so much time in building a profit in a particular session, the better course for that player in that circumstance is to play to reduce the risk of a suckout. Because players are human beings, not robots.

Does deviating from optimal EV play mean a lower profit expectation? Of course it does! That is not in question. And saying that someone must always play maximum EV poker is an absurd requirement to play the game. Because someone can be a winning player even if they occasionally "buy some insurance" against a big stack bad beat. The key is knowing when you are willing to lose some EV to reduce variance you really would hate facing (for whatever reason), then executing to do so.

And kudos to those users who have responded so far who never tilt after a string of bad beats! But after patting yourselves on the back for such props, mine your extremely talented understanding of the game to answer the question I actually asked above, not one I didn't. Or are your reading comprehension skills so bad that you don't understand the difference?

[WillieMcFML]

op as well as anyone who actually read this entire thread should be banned and castrated

is this how stp gets back at druff? flood the board with nonsense?

so much fail lately, let's nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand, druff (it's already got out of hand)


not related:

someone posted a link to the deep web film that i believe was on starz?

can't find it anymore, was it taken down?

[GrenadaRoger]

Druff played the hand correctly...when the money went in the villain had only 5 outs on the river, about 12% chance, and sometimes those things will happen

so really this is not a problem of poker strategy but rather one about risk & bankroll management...a $3,000 loss shouldn't be devastating to Druff's bankroll, if it is he is playing at too high stakes...do some online research on risk management and Kelly criteria to get some idea of how much should be put at risk in any one hand...

Druff has/had a shitload on money for poker, so 3000 at risk should be acceptable...thus it is more likely psychology: Druff can't stand the downward fluctuations of NL when 3000 is involved, a lot of people can't...although the potential for such a loss is the price one has to pay for the potential of a similar sized win.

The bolded text above is the key to whether someone should deviate from optimal EV play to reduce variance. For a player with a sufficient bankroll who won't tilt, reducing variance at the cost of EV is a bad decision. But for a player who doesn't want to deal with the emotional fallout of a bad beat when they have invested so much time in building a profit in a particular session, the better course for that player in that circumstance is to play to reduce the risk of a suckout. Because players are human beings, not robots.

Does deviating from optimal EV play mean a lower profit expectation? Of course it does! That is not in question. And saying that someone must always play maximum EV poker is an absurd requirement to play the game. Because someone can be a winning player even if they occasionally "buy some insurance" against a big stack bad beat. The key is knowing when you are willing to lose some EV to reduce variance you really would hate facing (for whatever reason), then executing to do so.

And kudos to those users who have responded so far who never tilt after a string of bad beats! But after patting yourselves on the back for such props, mine your extremely talented understanding of the game to answer the question I actually asked above, not one I didn't. Or are your reading comprehension skills so bad that you don't understand the difference?

sorry, i had the odds of a river suck out wrong, there were 8 outs available, so the % of times sucking out was about 18%...still, that would not change my decision to call the all in bet

for the play of this hand, Druff's percentage chance of winning were:

preflop 15%
flop 20%
turn 81%

the info that wasn't given in the original post was the bet sizes on the flop and turn prior to the all in raise...that info would help for deciding if abandoning the hand was a good idea...from reading i've done, when deep stacked (over 100 big blinds) if 10% of your stack in by the flop means its time to think ahead to winding up all in...and if one gets to 30% of ones stack in at any time in the hand they are fairly well pot committed...i believe this hand probably reached those thresholds

because the odds on winning were so low preflop, Druff would need a big payoff (over seven times his preflop input) to have long run +ev...so based on the odds alone, by playing QJ v AA Druff was planning on playing a big pot if he makes his hand...merely calling a turn bet by the villain would probably not make the pot big enough to justify the making the preflop and flop calls imho...so a check raise on the turn was correct, also was calling the all in

to me the lesson is if one is going to play this type of hand, expect some untoward results even if your read is perfect--so no crying permitted

[RichardBrodiesCombover.]

It was coming up to the week of the dance and I was panicking. I had tried talking to Ava to get out of it, but she was avoiding me like the plague. Every time I got near her she would basically run the opposite way. One day I managed to get her to stay for a second so that I could reason with her but then she ended up slapping me on the face. To say that we 'made a scene' would've been an understatement. So, I've given up on trying to talk to her and now I'm currently trying to think up a Plan B while I'm serving my last week of detention.

Maybe I could talk to Vincent again and try to convey to him that I really don't want to be expelled just for a dance. No... I can't say that to him, it'll sound to weak and whiny, he'll beat me up for sure. Or maybe I could --

I was jarred out of my thoughts by a hissing sound that was coming from the desk next to me. I was startled because I didn't even realize that anyone was sitting there. I turned my head to the right to look at the person next to me and he just stared back at me. I, obviously, didn't recognize him but maybe he knew me.

So I, reluctantly said, "Hi,"

Even after I said that he just stared at me, which I thought was very bizarre. While he was staring I surveyed him. The first thing I noticed was that he had these piercing green eyes that seemed to burn a hole through me. He wore this leather jacket that he looked like he'd worn it out a lot. I guess he had a nice enough face but there was something about him that unsettled me.

I cleared my throat to indicate that he should say something. It seemed to knock him out of his trance, "Oh sorry, people say that I stare a lot. It kinda creeps them out."

Yeah, no kidding.

"Oh, I'm Nathan." He said frankly as he put out his hand for me to shake. Again, another thing that was weird. Who shakes hands anymore?

Either way I quickly shook his hand and said, "Okay, hi," then I turned away from him because it was getting awkward.

"Hey, aren't you going to introduce yourself, that's usually how this goes." I looked over at him and he seemed offended.

"Oh, I just thought you already knew who I was."

He looked confused, "What are you a celebrity or something? How am I supposed to know who you are?" He said in a sharp tone.

I was starting to get irritated by his sudden attitude change. "No, it's just that everyone at school seems to know who I am and I don't remember anyone so I just assumed that you knew me and I didn't remember." I said in a huff.

"What do you have amnesia or something?" He sounded like he was joking but I wasn't laughing.

"Yes, I do have amnesia." I said sternly. He just looked stunned, like he couldn't believe it and he looked like he wanted to say more, but before he could, I got up and moved to another desk away from him.

The detention monitor looked up from the magazine. "There's no talking in detention." He said quickly and then looked back down at his magazine. What a joke, this guy doesn't want to be here anymore than we do.

The rest of detention was very tense for me. I could feel that Nathan guy staring at me for the entire hour. Usually I use this quiet time to think about all my problems and possibly figure out how to fix them, but today all I could think about was how rude and annoying and... weird that kid was.

* * * * * * * * * *

As soon as detention was done I quickly bolted out of my seat and headed for the door. I didn't want to feel the uncomfortable stare of that guy anymore. I was walking down the hall when I heard feet quickly approaching and someone shouting, "Hey wait up!"

I looked back and, sure enough, Nathan was running down the hall toward me. I wanted to run away but I thought that would be too childish so I turned toward him and crossed my arms.

"What do you want?" I said gruffly.

He looked guilty, "I'm really sorry. I-- I honestly didn't know. Let me explain. I'm new here. I just transferred to this school a week ago."

"Yeah, I have some personal issues as well." He said defensively.

"Look man, I didn't mean it like that. I guess I was being too sensitive earlier. It's just, my amnesia is a sore subject for me." He still looked a bit miffed so I started walking away, but to my surprise he followed my lead and walked beside me.

"Well, as I was saying. I'm new here and I don't know anyone and I'm kind of lonely. Then I went to detention and saw you in there looking lonely as well, so I thought maybe I could introduce myself and we could be friends. I mean we have the detention thing in common... and the loneliness."

"I wasn't lonely. I was just sitting in there, silently, because in detention that's all you're allowed to do." I corrected.

He brushed off my comment like I didn't even say anything, "Hey, I never caught your name."

"I'm Matt."

"Well, hi Matt." He said in a way too cheery voice for it to be sincere. "But let's get back to the amnesia thing. That's so fascinating, how did it happen?"

Is he for real? I stopped walking and looked at him, "That's a bit of a personal question, don't you think."

He looked confused like he didn't understand, "I don't think it's personal. If I had amnesia and you wanted to know how I got it, I'd tell you."

"Well, once you get amnesia we'll talk, but until then I think I'm just gonna go home."

I turned from him and started walking to the parking lot but I could tell he was still following me. Then he hustled up to me and kept walking in step with me.

"I'm sorry, again, Matt. I guess I'm not good with personal boundaries." He said sheepishly.

"It seems like you have no boundaries." I remarked sharply as I walked a bit faster.

"Well either way, we got off to a rocky start but I'm able to move past it if you are." He said enthusiastically.

I was so confused. What did he want? I turned and looked at him intently, "Look, Nathan. I really don't mean to be rude but I've got a lot on my mind right now and I'd rather just be alone." I said exasperatedly.

I thought he would finally take the hint, but he didn't even budge an inch, he just stared at me, again.Then he finally said, "Well I think that you can solve any problem if you just talk it out."

He couldn't be serious," I really don't know you, so I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. I really gotta--"

He cut me off, "No I insist just unload. I'm a very good listener."

"You're obviously not." I snapped.

He looked offended and his demeanor changed again, "Hey, what the fuck's that supposed to mean?" It was weird how quickly his moods seemed to change.

"I already have enough problems as it is. I don't need some weird, new kid coming into my life and making it even more complicated."

"Oh, I'm the weird one? You're the one with the memory loss, you probably don't know what day it is. Whatever man, I was just trying to help."

I was stunned, why was he getting so worked up? "Fine! You wanna know so badly, okay. My problem right now is that I had this girlfriend. She was my girlfriend before my accident that caused the amnesia. Well, apparently I was supposed to go to some dumbass dance with her. I, obviously, didn't remember that and also the worse part is I just broke up with her a couple days ago. She tried to act like I betrayed her, whatever. Then the next day she gets her goon of a brother to come and threaten me in order to take her to the dance. But here's the best part. I can't even go to that goddamn dance, even if I wanted to because I'm literally forbidden from going to any school events. I might be expelled if I go to that dance, but I'll probably have to go otherwise I'll get beaten up by her brother and his friends." I think I might be having a mental break.

"So, are you happy?! You got me to unload all my shit unto you. Has the problem been solved yet?!" I yelled sarcastically, with my hands raised in frustrated.

He just looked at me with one eyebrow raised and his arms crossed, "You're very interesting," Then he walked away.

I was so baffled by that experience and also mortified that I told him all my problems. I don't even know him. What the fuck was I thinking?

__________________________________________________ ___________

I was so caught up in my interaction with Nathan that I wasn't thinking straight. So, I totally forgot that Kevin said he wanted to meet up with me at my house after school. It's all part of our 'trying to become friends again' thing. I'm still not sure about Kevin, I can't tell if he's going to be good for me or not.

Either way, like I said, I didn't expect him so when I got to my room I almost had a heart attack when I saw him sitting on my bed.

I stepped backwards a bit in shock, then recovered quickly to glare at the smirk that was forming on his face.

"What the hell dude?!" I yelled at him as I threw my backpack at his smug face.

He easily dodged it and laughed, "You should've seen your face, you were like," he imitated my face in an over-exaggerated way, with his hand clutching his chest and a wide eyed expression on his face.

"Calm down? How am I supposed to act when I find someone lurking in my room. I totally forgot you were coming over." Then I looked him over, he looked like he'd been lounging in my room for awhile. "How long have you been here?"

He looked at his wrist which had no watch on it. "Oh, for like... an hour or so." He replied with a shrug.

I was a little taken back that he'd been in my room, by himself, for so long. It felt like an invasion of privacy. "I have so many questions about that, but let me just ask, How did you get in here?"

He looked at me like I was crazy, "Christine let me in, of course. It's not like I broke in or something, so you can stop looking at me like that."

I reluctantly sat down next to him on the bed, "Did you used to do this a lot, you know like -- before?"

He looked down in thought, "Yeah, I guess so. I never really thought about it much. It was just second nature for one of us to be at the other's house. We used to hang out all the time." Then he got this far off look in his eyes. That seemed to be a common look with people around me when they told me something from my past.

I wanted to change the subject because that look was making me uncomfortable. "Hey, do you know someone named Nathan?"

He looked confused at my random question, "Nathan who?"

I sighed, "I don't know, that's why I'm asking you."

"Well can you tell me what he looks like?"

"I don't know, he's got kinda darkish hair, average build, and these piercing green eyes that stare way too much."

He squinted his eyes in thought, then he looked like he remembered something, "Oh, are you talking about that new kid? I think I've seen him around. He wears a leather jacket all the time, right? Yeah, some people who've talked to him say he's...intense. I just think he's weird."

"For once, I can agree. He's really weird."

He looked at me suspiciously, "Why are you asking about him?"

"Because he approached me in detention. He was kinda rude and then he later tried to apologize, but then his mood kept changing quickly, it was weird. Then I kind of yelled at him about my problems and he just walked away. It was bizarre."

He was silent for a moment and then he looked at me with a worried look, "You really have some anger issues now, don't you." He said it more as a statement, not like a question.

"I guess I'm kind of quick to lose my temper but it's nothing that unusual, I don't think."

"Nah man, you're more than that. I mean you first beat Sam to a bloody pulp and then you punched me. You might not remember but we never fought like that before."

I was getting a little annoyed when he brought up our fight, again. "You know that I was provoked both times," I said sternly.

He looked on edge, "Hey man, I'm not trying to start another fight, I was just stating an observation I had."

I couldn't keep snapping at Kevin about our fight, but he has to know why I'm so upset about our fight. I sighed and looked at him hesitantly, "Kev, I have something that I should tell you before we try to become friends again."

He looked hurt by my comment, but I wasn't sure why. "Dude, we never stopped being friends."

I gave a nervous laugh, "Oh yeah, sorry," I didn't think I would be so bothered about what Kevin thought of me. But I knew what I was about to confess was going to be big.

"Why do you seem so nervous?"

I should remember that if things don't go well it's not like I really remember him being my friend anyway, so I wouldn't really be losing much. I looked away from him so that I could go through with it.

"I think you need to know why I fought with you."

He waved his hand, "Dude, it's okay, we don't need to keep bringing it up. I'm over it."

"Well I'm not and you need to know why."

"Okay, go ahead,"

"See, there's someone who's really important to me. Someone who I really happen to like a lot. And that day that we got into a fight. It was because of my memory of that person and how you insulted-- that person." I said this all while looking down at my hands.

Kevin face was contorted in confusion, "But your memory was about that Cole kid."

He wasn't quite getting it, "Yeah, that's right."

I waited and let him put two and two together. When he did he looked at me with a dumbstruck look. "Matt, what are you telling me?"

I knew that he understood, but I could tell he needed to hear it from me. I just didn't know how to say it. "Cole and I are together."

Kevin stood up off the bed and turned to face me with a frown. "What do you mean together? Like in the church choir? What the fuck is 'together' supposed to mean?"

I stood up and matched his stance. He wasn't going to intimidate me in my own room. "Don't act dumb, you know exactly what I mean."

"No, I don't know. Because what you 'mean' doesn't make sense to me. Just a couple weeks ago you had a girlfriend and now your saying your with Cole fucking Blume. Are you outta your goddamn mind?! No, I'll answer that for you. Of course you are. You don't just go from straight to gay with one head injury."

I wasn't sure why he was so mad, but two can play at this game. "Stop trying to act like you know everything about me. Maybe, I had secrets that I never told you before the accident and now they're just manifesting themselves."

"So what are you trying to say, you were fucking Cole even before the accident? That's nice what a class act you are!" He looked at me with a scowl.

"Fuck you, I don't have to justify anything to you. You said you were fine with me hanging out with Cole a couple days ago."

"That's before I knew he was sucking your dick."

God, he's such an asshole. I got right in his face, "You know what I don't even know why I bother with you. You say that you want to have a friendship with me and then you act like this. Get the fuck outta my house." I shoved him towards the door.

He looked shaken out of his disposition, "I don't know what to say." He said quietly.

"You've said more than enough."

"No, no, I did say that I wanted to fix our friendship so we definitely need to talk about this, not yell. We can't keep yelling at each other." He remarked sadly.

He sat back down on the bed in submission and looked up at me. I was still a bit heated though, so I stayed standing and looked down at him.

"What's there to talk about. I told you what I needed to tell you and you responded badly. Conversation over."

He looked defeated, "No. Conversation not over. Matt please sit down and talk with me. I'm willing to listen." I looked at him skeptically. "And I'll try not to be an asshole about it." He sighed.

I reluctantly sat down next to him and waited for him to start.

"So... you're fucking Cole?" He said with a smirk.

I immediately snapped my head towards him and looked furious. Before I could say anything, he put his hands up defensively, "Hey, man it was a joke. It was a joke. Just to lighten the mood. You're so uptight anymore." He laughed, "But seriously, what the fuck's going on?"

I shrugged, "I don't know man. I'm not really sure how I felt before but now I definitely know that I like Cole. I think I might have felt this way before but I just couldn't admit it to myself or anyone else. I mean it's not a big deal... is it?" I asked, suddenly feeling unsure of myself.

He looked me in the eye and said sincerely, "Yes, it is a big deal. This changes everything."

"Why does it have to change anything? No, I'm serious. I don't get why the person who I choose to be with affects you at all. The only people my relationship should concern are me and Cole."

"Yeah, well tell that to the kids at school." Kevin huffed.

"I will. Honestly, I don't give a fuck what they think."

He looked at me seriously, "What's so special about him?"

"I don't know... but I'm planning to find out."

__________________________________________________ _________



I was feeling pretty good about talking things over with Kevin. Even though he still seemed a bit reluctant to accept my relationship with Cole, but he was willing to try. I would've been fine even if he hadn't been willing to accept it, but I'm secretly glad that he was. I know how important Kevin was to the 'old' me and I still feel a connection towards him.

When I got to school the next day I felt good about my small success with Kevin that I forgot about my actual problems. That is, until my problems walked right up to me. And by that I mean: Ava was standing right in front of me.

The weirdest thing was that she stood in front of me looking very nervous and unsure of herself, which is very out of character for her. She usually walks around like she owns the world and everyone in it. But today she looks like someone just punched her in the stomach.

I was kind of concerned, "Hey Ava, are you okay?" I put my hands on her shoulders to steady her but she shrugged me off quickly.

"Yeah, I'm fine. I just came over here to tell you something." she looked away nervously as she spoke. "Go ahead," I murmured suspiciously.

"Um..." she twirled her hair in her finger and again, looked off into the distance before turning her attention back to me. "You know how I wanted you to go with me to the Winter Formal."

Ugh, this dumb dance again! I rolled my eyes, "Yeah, what about it?"

"Well, I thought about it and decided that.... you really don't need to go with me. I mean we are bro--broken up after all," She was stumbling over her words and looking hesitant. This was really not like her.

"Are you sure you're okay?"

"Yeah, yes, of course I'm okay. But don't worry, I understand. You're totally off the hook. You don't need to go with me."

"Okay, okay I get it. You're saying the same thing in a hundred different ways." I said with a smirk, but she was doing anything but laughing, she looked perturbed. "Are you sure you're okay? You seem...off."

She shook her head vigorously, "Yep, I'm good." Then she looked at me for a second like she was trying to memorize my face, then she said, "Bye Matt," and basically ran away.

That was probably the weirdest thing that's happened to me... and I have amnesia. I brushed off that weird interaction and walked down the hall. I was turning the corner when I saw a person leaning against the wall, looking very casual. Almost too casual since they appeared to be waiting for someone. Whoever it was, was giving off a very ominous demeanor.

I tried to avoid them as I walked down the hall. Then the person started walking towards me and I immediately realized who it was. I tried to back track my steps and discreetly walk the other way but the person noticed and sped up towards me.

"Hey Matt!"

I reluctantly turned around and I was facing Nathan with his leather jacket still on, "Hi, Nathan, I was just headed to class." I said while pointing in a general direction.

"Oh, yeah? Well, I can walk with you." He said with a smile. When he smiles he looks more handsome and less creepy.

I tried not to roll my eyes, "Okay," I started walking and he followed suit.

We were walking next to each other for awhile before he said anything, "Whoa, do you hear that?"

I looked at him like he was crazy (which he very well might be),"Hear what?"

"The whispers. Everyone in this hallway seems to be looking in your direction and whispering about something."

I looked around as we kept walking and I did notice a couple people looking at me, but I didn't think much of it.

"I think you're just imagining things. Some people just happen to be looking in my direction and talking, it's just a coincidence," I shrugged.

He turned his head to me and looked at me like I was an idiot, "No man. You're like a celebrity here. Everyone seems to be talking about you or wants to know more about you. I don't blame them," He said the last part under his breath but I still heard it."

I was about to refute when a familiar face came into view and I instantly blocked everything else out. As Cole walked towards me, everyone else seemed to fade away. Just seeing him brightens my day. Then I noticed that Nathan was staring at me because I had stopped in the middle of the hallway while we were walking. I instantly had a sinking in my stomach as I thought about Cole meeting Nathan. I suddenly felt very protective of Cole. For some reason I didn't want Cole to have to experience the weirdness that is Nathan.

Cole stood right in front of us looking like he didn't have a care in the world, while I was mentally trying to run away.

"Hey Matt and..." He looked over in Nathan's direction as if he wanted me to introduce them.

Before I could say anything Nathan jumped slightly in front of me and put out his hand, "Hello, I'm Nathan." as he shook Cole's hand. He looked confused so Nathan elaborated,"Matt and I, met in detention and I'm new here so he was just showing me around." He replied with a big smile as he patted me on the shoulder.

Cole just smiled and looked between the two of us, "Oh, I'm Cole Blume, by the way."

"Nice to meet you. Did anyone ever tell you that you have a very interesting last name." Nathan was acting so different towards Cole versus the way he acts towards me. He seemed almost charming.

Cole laughed, "Oh please, everyone usually kids me about my last name. They usually make some joke about it being like a flower, you know because of the 'bloom' thing."

"Huh, well they're actually right. The word for flower in German is blume." Nathan remarked, now completely ignoring my presence. I was a bit annoyed.

"Oh, now you know German." I said sarcastically.

They both ignored me though and Cole went on, "Well I guess you learn something new everyday. You know I think my father's side of the family comes from Germany."

"They do?" I said inquisitively. But I must have been like the wind to them because neither of them looked my way.

"Oh, I've gotta get to class but we should catch up again sometime." Cole said towards Nathan then he looked towards me and smiled, "See you later Matt."

All I could muster out was a breathy ,"Bye," before he was gone and I was completely baffled.

Then Nathan looked at me and smiled, "He's kinda cute."

I was dumbfounded. Did he really just say that about my -- Cole? "What?" I managed to squeak out.

He casually waved his hand, "Hey, no harm in looking. But anyways there is something I wanted to tell you."

I officially did not want to talk to him anymore so I just started walking away to go to my next class. But he shouted after me, "Hey, if you don't want to know what I did for you, then fine."

I looked back at him with confusion and he walked up to me with an amused look, "I knew you'd be curious."

" What did you do for me?" I asked under my breath.

"Oh, nothing. I just got you out of going to the dance with Ava. She did tell you right?" He said calmly as he looked down at his hand.

I got a cold feeling from his calmness, "What do you mean? Ava came up to me today but what did that have to do with you?"

He raised an eyebrow at me then shrugged, "Well, let's just say I convinced her that there is no way that you would be able to go to that dance with her."

"What?!" I stumbled over my words and my feet, "How did-- why did you? What?"

He just shrugged again with a satisfied smirk on his face. I was about to ask again, what he did, then the bell rang signaling that class was starting. He casually walked away. I watched, in shock as he walked down the hall.

Who is this guy?

Cole Blume for president

[Dan Druff]

If you are playing to manage risk, you shouldn't be at those limits.

I got all my chips in when my opponent had 8 outs with the river card to come. I have no regrets how I played it.

/thread

[MumblesBadly]

If you are playing to manage risk, you shouldn't be at those limits.

I got all my chips in when my opponent had 8 outs with the river card to come. I have no regrets how I played it.

/thread

With all due respect, good sir, "uhhh... Bullshit!". Either (A) you exaggerated in that PFA Radio show story how much losing your stack in that hand upset you at that time, or (B) you really did give up a seat at a good game because of losing your stack, including the "slowly grinded" profit of about $1000, in one hand because of a suckout. Because if it didn't bother you so much at that time, you would have immediately rebought to give yourself the +EV opportunity to take that big pair-donkey's money, (as well as the other fish at the table you had grinded a profit from) until the seat at the limit game opened.

So, which one is it?

[sonatine]

If you are playing to manage risk, you shouldn't be at those limits.

I got all my chips in when my opponent had 8 outs with the river card to come. I have no regrets how I played it.

/thread

With all due respect, good sir, "uhhh... Bullshit!". Either (A) you exaggerated in that PFA Radio show story how much losing your stack in that hand upset you at that time, or (B) you really did give up a seat at a good game because of losing your stack, including the "slowly grinded" profit of about $1000, in one hand because of a suckout. Because if it didn't bother you so much at that time, you would have immediately rebought to give yourself the +EV opportunity to take that big pair-donkey's money, (as well as the other fish at the table you had grinded a profit from) until the seat at the limit game opened.

So, which one is it?

The heat from Jock's dick woke me up. Sometime during the night we had ended up spooning with his chest against my back and an arm draped over me. Although over the last several months, I had been in bed with more men than I could remember, it was never to sleep. It was a new sensation and I wasn't sure that I liked it. I pulled away from Jock's body but he pulled me back with his arm, "Where do you think you're going? Did you forget what I said?" Jock started to rub his cock against my back and I could feet it getting harder and larger. I was curious to see if it was as large as he had inferred last night, he had said he had never found a jock strap that was big enough, but as I tried to turn, he held me tight. "Don't move. I'm going to raise my arm now and you're going to stay right where you are."

Now that his arm was free, he brought his hand to my ass and explored my cheeks. "Hard but soft at the same time." Since he chest was against my back, I could feel his heart rate start to quicken even through his massive, hard pectoral muscles. His fingers started to explore the crack of my ass. His fingers finally found my hole. "Good, you're still lubed up from the rest of the crew, which will make this easier for you."

He put his hand between my thighs and pushed the upper one up slightly, giving him just enough room to slide his cock between them. Moving his hips he started to move his cock between my legs. His dick definitely felt big. Was it really as big as it felt or was it just my imagination since I hadn't seen it hard when I came into his quarters a few hours earlier. "Hold your leg up like I'm doing."

I took hold of my leg and kept it at the same height that Jock at been holding it. He must have used his hand to line up the head of his cock with my hole. I felt pressure but he didn't break through. I felt more pressure but still nothing. He pushed a little harder and the head of his dick broke through my ass lips. It was definitely big. Now that his hand was free, he draped it over my chest again and moved it around, "Just relax."

Like a slow motion vid, his cock started to push forward. The whole time Jock kept rubbing my chest and abs. "Feels really nice kid." He took my leg again and pushed forward with his hips while he pulled me back, "Nice and slow." Again, it was probably my imagination but his dick never seemed to end and he just kept pushing forward.

We laid there for a little while as he applied more pressure. He must have known when he hit my prostate because he started to jab it. Now that he was deep enough, he let go of my leg so when I lowered it, his cock was trapped in my body. As he continued to jab my prostate, he put his hand around me and started to stroke my cock. This again was something new, no guy had ever touched my dick before while I was servicing him. "Nice cock Mikey, you must like what I'm doing to your ass because you are hard and leaking", which I was.

While he continued to slowly move within me, he quickened the pace at which he was stroking my cock. I knew I was getting close and I tried to push his hand away but he kept his grip tight. When I couldn't take it anymore, I came while at the same time clamping my ass muscles tighter around Jock's cock. "Fuck, that's it." With one fluid movement he rolled me onto my stomach while he stayed deep inside me. With my ass muscles still clenched, he drove his cock as far as my body would allow. It was no longer gentle movements, instead he began rapidly increasing the pace of his thrusts. I wanted more, so I raised my ass just enough so that another small amount of his cock touched me deep inside.

Jock did a complete 180, instead of the gentle movement of his cock he became a mad man focused on just his pleasure. It wasn't rapid strokes of pushing in and then pulling back, he was just trying to go deeper, he would pull back maybe an inch and then push hard. "Fuck, fuck, FUCK!" I felt the warmth of his cum deeper than I had ever felt before, or again that might have been my imagination. When he was finished, he pulled out, jumped off the bed and went into his small bathroom before I had the chance to see his dick. I heard him take a piss and then heard what I thought was his shower. It wasn't long before he stepped back into the sleeping quarters already wearing a pair of briefs. Was he purposely not letting me see his cock? His briefs did look well packed. Maybe he never let anyone see his dick so that he could keep the ruse of his nickname. "Take a shower and then take those sheets to the laundry room and give them a wash."

"You just used the shower. Don't we need to wait another hour before more water is available?"

"This isn't Greenwood kid. Since you're the newbie, while you're in the laundry room, make yourself useful and wash the clothes that are there. The rest of the crew is probably already up and have already had some breakfast, so while the clothes are in the dryer, go to the mess and get yourself something to eat. You should be able to figure it out." Jock stepped out his quarters and headed to the bridge.

I got off the bed and went into Jock's bathroom. For the first time in over two years I was able to take a long shower and then get out and not have dust start to settle on my skin. There was only one towel, the one that Jock had used, so I dried off as best as I could. My body must have acclimated to the temperature because I no longer felt overheated.

I had no idea where my shorts were, I'm sure they were in Turk's quarters but when I looked, the place was as tidy as the first time I saw it and my shorts were nowhere in sight. I went back to Jock's room and wrapped the wet towel around my waist, maybe he had taken them to the laundry room. Wearing only the towel, I made my way back to the mess hall because I remembered where it was. I waved my hand in front of the sensor, the virtual screen appeared and I ordered some breakfast. After I ate and cleaned up after myself, I heard Babe's voice, "Mikey, please come to the med bay, I need to get your vitals and other information for the ship's manifest."

"I don't know where the med bay is."

"Follow the green lights along the galley way that I've turned on, it's not far from where you are currently located." I followed the lights and ended up in a room very much like the doctor's office I had gone to for medical tests before my parents and I left for Greenwood. "Please tell me your date of birth." I did. "Please lay down on the bed." I did as Babe requested. Out of nowhere, my body was enclosed in some sort of device. I was poked, prodded and stuck as a pale blue light passed over me. "Thank you Mikey, you may get off the bed now. Most everything is within acceptable human norms for someone your age and height. You do have some nutritional deficiencies. I'll update the mess equipment to rectify the situation. Thank you."

"Babe?"

"Yes, Mikey."

"Where's the laundry room?"

"Follow the new set of green lights."

"Thank you."

"You're welcome."

It was odd talking to something that wasn't really there. Well, I guess she was not there but she was everywhere.

I followed the lights to the laundry room. The place was a mess. There were dirty, smelly clothes and linens everywhere. Since all of the crew were large men and I had only seen them in the outfits that they had been wearing while loading the ship or in just their briefs, I had no way of knowing what laundry belonged to what man. I divided the piles into clothes and linens. I remembered that we had a washer and dryer back on Earth but I had never done laundry, my Mom always had. In Greenwood, the clothes just needed to be rinsed and hung to dry due to the material they were made of. There was only one machine, so I opened it and put some clothes in. When I shut the door, the machine just came to life. There didn't seem to be any water entering the machine but there was a definite smell of ozone. It couldn't have been more than five minutes and the machine stopped. I opened the door. The clothes were dry, appeared clean and no longer smelled. While a second load was being cleaned, I folded up shirts, pants and underwear, which there was surprisingly little of. I did the same routine two more times. My shorts were nowhere in the laundry. When I removed the last load of clothes, I loaded the machine with towels, removing the one around my waist and adding it to the load. While I was folding the last load of clothes, I came across a pair of very sheer, very small underwear. It couldn't possible fit any of the men on ship. I decided to put them on. The front barely contained my cock and balls and the back was hardly more than a string that went between my ass cheeks.

"I wondered where the hell those had gone." I turned around and Diego, one of the crew, was standing in the doorway to the laundry room. "Damn if you don't look almost as good in them as the bitch I took them from back on New Los Angeles." Diego walked all the way around me checking them out. "I'm glad that Jock asked me to come check on you to make sure you were doing the laundry. This used to be my job since I was the newest crew member before you came along. I can't believe how good you look in those. I'm getting hard just thinking about what a hot piece of ass she was." Diego, like the rest of the crew, was pretty hot himself. He was one of the shorter men but that still put him at almost 2 meters. While he had the same labor produced muscles, he was more lithe, if that's even possible for someone in excess of 90 kilograms. Like Turk his skin was on the brown side with dark hair and eyes. The briefs he was wearing were white, so they contrasted with his skin drawing my attention to his package. He obviously was getting excited by seeing me in the almost not there underwear. Diego and I hadn't spent that much time in his quarters when it was his turn. While not quick, it was a fuck like I'd had hundreds of time. He put my legs over his shoulders, rammed his cock into me and went to town. I think the minute after he took me to the next cabin, he was back in his fast asleep.

Diego now had his hand down the front of his briefs. "She was a great fuck but she sucked at giving head. Seeing you like this, it makes me wonder if you could do better." He pulled his dick out and stroked it until it was rigid. He stepped closer. "Come on, show me if you're better." I stepped closer and took his cock out of his hand and started to stroke it for him. I could feel his pulse through the vein on the underside of his cock. I decided to have a little fun.

"What did you want her to do that she didn't?"

"She never acted like she enjoyed it. She would just open her mouth and make me do all the work."

I got down on my knees. "She never did this?" I held on to the base of his cock and licked the stalk up and down but never let my tongue touch his head.

"No."

"Or this?" I sucked one ball into my mouth, swirled it around and then let it pop from my lips. I turned my attention to the other ball. When I also let it pop out of my mouth, I started to lap Diego's balls until they were soaked with my spit.

"Fuck no."

"What about this?" I pushed his cock up so it was pressed against his abs. Starting at his balls, I slowly guided my tongue up his vein and then back down. This time Diego didn't say anything, he was just staring down at me. After I had done it a few times, I began licking around the underside of his crown. Diego's legs started quivering. I looked up into his eyes as I engulfed his head with my mouth. I could taste the beginnings of his precum. He instinctively put a hand on the top of my head in an attempt to control my motions. I pushed his hand off my head while at the same time pushing him back against the laundry machine. I put a hand on his stomach, holding him still. He could have pushed me back, he was obviously stronger than me, but he didn't, he let me take control. For the next 10 minutes I brought him to the edge three times and then let up. When I knew he couldn't take it anymore, I held onto his cock and just let it rest on my tongue with my mouth wide open. Using my hand and small movements of my tongue I brought him across the finish line. He watched as his cum shot over my tongue and down my throat, then I clamped my lips over his head and sucked out the rest of his cum. He finally pushed me away and I let him.

"Jesus, fucking, Christ!" As I stood up, I crammed his cock back into his briefs while he looked at me in disbelief. I learned an important lesson in that quarter hour, I had more power than I thought I had.

As if nothing had happened, I asked, "How can I tell whose clothes are whose?"

"With the exception of Cap's leather jacket, we all share the clothes, makes it easier that way. Just lay them out on the table in the mess and we'll all grab some. Uh, thanks....for the laundry I mean." He turned and walked out of the laundry room.

When I had finished with the towels and sheets, I took everything to the mess and laid it all out on the table. Babe's voice filled the air, "Mikey, Captain Bishop has asked you to join him and the rest of the crew on the bridge. The green lights will lead you."

"Thanks Babe."

"You're welcome Mikey." It was still strange.

The door to the bridge slid open and I stepped through. Captain Bishop turned his attention to me from his command chair and his eyes got big. "What the fuck are you wearing?"

"These are the only thing I could find that would fit."

"What happened to your clothes?"

"I couldn't find them."

Jock coughed, "Cap, I may have mistakenly spaced them with some waste this morning."

"You guys can be such pigs sometimes." Even as he said it, there was a brief glimpse of his crooked smile. "Kid, we're going to have to get you some clothes when we dock at Obama. While what you are wearing is, uh, quite fetching, it really won't work with what I've got planned." I had no idea what he was talking about, except for new clothes.

Looking through the view screen, I could see that we were approaching the space station and it looked huge, I mean like the biggest thing I had ever seen, even larger than our TerraCorp colony ship.

"Captain Bishop, the Obama Station has scanned us and verified the crew but have some questions about our cargo, they say it doesn't appear to match our manifest. How would you like me to respond?"

"Babe, tell them that one of our electrical systems has been interfering with scans and that they are more than welcome to verify the manifest once we have docked."

"They have agreed, but have said that they won't allow any crew to disembark until the verification has been completed."

"That's fine Babe."

Jock looked up from the controls he was watching, "Cap, Obama's tractor beams have locked on and they have initiated docking procedures." I watched in fascination as the Phoenix looked like it was going to collide with the space station but instead we smoothly entered a large bay and slowly lowered onto a landing pad.

Turk said, "Opening the ramp Cap."

"You guys stay on the ship until you hear from me. Come on Kid, you're coming with me." Captain Bishop put an arm over my shoulder and led me toward the back of the ship and the ramp. As we walked, Captain Bishop said, "This isn't a TerraCorp station, it's an independent but TerraCorp uses it occasionally when they are transporting supplies to one of their colonies. We've got to get some of their life support equipment so that we can fix the ship. Their security won't know who you are. The only pictures they have of you were when you left Earth when you were 12, they won't be able to identify you quickly by facial recognition. For now, just follow my lead."

We walked down the ramp and some station security were waiting. What I was wearing didn't even get a second look by the man and woman who were waiting. The male spoke, "Hey Bishop, it's been a while, how's it hanging?"

"Long and thick as usual." The female rolled her eyes.

"We were sent to verify your cargo, it didn't jive with your manifest."

Captain Bishop pulled a credit stick out of his leather jacket. "Maybe this will clear it up."

The male security guard pulled out his stick and tapped it to Captain Bishop's, the female guard did the same. "Yep, looks like everything is verified." The two guards walked away.

"Can't they trace that?"

"Kid, there are always ways around the system. Come on."

We left the landing bay and walked down some hallways. We walked through a door and the sight stopped me dead in my tracks. There were people everywhere. There were bright colored lights, music playing and the smell of food cooking. I was mortified that I was only wearing the small pair of underwear but nobody seemed to pay any attention.

As we continued to walk through the station, I was overwhelmed by not only the number of people but all of the different ages, how many women there were, their brightly colored clothes and the many accents and dialects that I heard. It reminded me of the time my Mom and Dad had taken me to, what my Dad called, the last theme park on Earth. He told us that it was closing since the land was needed for crops and housing. We spent a couple of days in the heat and humidity of central Florida, but it was a good memory.

Captain Bishop and I reached an area of the station where I could look up and down. There were so many levels to the station that I couldn't count them all. Every level seemed to have as much activity as the one we were on. There were tubes with people traveling up and down the levels. Every couple of seconds a platform would move past and people would just step on and go up or down. We rode up maybe a dozen levels and then stepped off. We stopped at a store that had mannequins in the windows whose outfits changed every couple of seconds. "Go in and pick out enough clothes for a week. I also want you to get a suit, do you know what that is?"

"Not really."

"The salesperson will know, just tell them something conservative. I'll be back in a little while, I need to go talk to some people." He walked away leaving me in front of the store.

As I walked into the store, a red light passed over me. Two men about my age and size appeared out of nowhere. "How can we help you?"

"I need to get some clothes."

"Similar to what you are wearing?"

I looked down at my little underwear. "No, I need some regular clothes, maybe six or seven full outfits plus a suit, a conservative suit."

"How unfortunate, you look good in what you are wearing. Step up on this platform and let us know what you think." I stepped on the platform and as I looked in the mirror, images of clothes appeared on my body. "Based on what you're wearing, let us make some suggestions." One of the men touched his fingers to a pad he was carrying and new images appeared. Everything that appeared on my image in the mirror was tight fitting. One of the man asked me to turn to the side. "Look how this one shows off your ass, it's fabulous." I was so overwhelmed by the colors and the looks that I just finally told them to make some selections for me. The man kept pushing buttons on his pad.

"Was any of those a suit?"

"That's right, you did ask for a suit, conservative you said, right?" New images appeared. The two men conversed as the images flew by. "Yes, this is the perfect one. Anything else?"

I hadn't seen any in the images, "I'll need some underwear too." The two men conversed again.

"Okay, step over here and we'll have everything ready in a few minutes."

"Don't I need to try them on?"

"What? Of course not, what kind of store do you think we are? We got your measurements when you came in the store and we just fabricate them."

I stepped over to where he had indicated and watched as item after item of clothing magically appeared in front of me. It was like they just started growing from the ground up. The two men put the items in boxes and bags. One of the men tapped his pad again and gave me the number of credits for all of the items. I realized I didn't have my credit stick and actually doubted that I would have had enough anyway. They stared at me, "We just need your credit stick or wristband."

"Sorry, I don't have it with me." Both men huffed.

"Well, we already made them, so someone is going to have to pay for them. What about that hot guy who was with you? Are you his? If you are, I'd love to change places with you."

"You mean Captain Bishop?"

"Ty Bishop?"

"Yes."

"Oh, my God!!!!" The guy turned to his colleague, "Run facial rec from the camera, was that really Ty Bishop?" After a second the second guy confirmed that it was Captain Bishop. "You're one lucky girl honey....my ass is just twitching thinking about him." I had no idea what to say. "Did you come on the Phoenix?"

"Yes."

The man touched his pad again, "Okay, we charged the purchase to the Phoenix and it will be delivered there shortly. Please bring Ty by if he has the time."

I walked out of the store bewildered. I waited for Captain Bishop but he never showed up so I decided to head back to the Phoenix. I got on one of the people movers but didn't remember what level I should get off at. When I did step off the platform, the level didn't look like the other one's I had seen. This level wasn't as colorful, vibrant or joyful. It actually reminded me of Greenwood.

I turned to get back on the people mover when someone grabbed me from behind and pulled me toward a dark corner. "Did you get lost sweetheart or did you just come down here to have some fun?" I got spun around and was looking at three men. They looked like the crew from the Phoenix only they were ugly and rough looking. They looked like some the settlers from Greenwood that had lost everything. "We never see someone as pretty as you down here." The three men stepped close enough so that I could smell their unwashed bodies. I was spun again and was pushed up against a wall. Three pair of hands were feeling my ass. One of the hands pulled the back of my underwear down. "Look at that ass, it's just begging for some cock, right guys?" One of the men got behind me, his cock was out and he was rubbing it against my ass. "I think his mouth could use some cock too." I was pulled away from the wall and one of the men made me bend over and a dick appeared in front of me and was slapped against my face. I felt another cock push against my asshole.

In quick succession I heard three electrical charges and the three men dropped to the ground. Someone grabbed my arm and spun me around, it was Captain Bishop. He touched his ear, "I found him. Good job on the facial rec Jock." He hit me with a hard stare, "What the hell is wrong with you? Why did you come down to this level?" He didn't wait for an answer, he pulled me to the people mover and we rode up to a different level.

[Dan Druff]

If you are playing to manage risk, you shouldn't be at those limits.

I got all my chips in when my opponent had 8 outs with the river card to come. I have no regrets how I played it.

/thread

With all due respect, good sir, "uhhh... Bullshit!". Either (A) you exaggerated in that PFA Radio show story how much losing your stack in that hand upset you at that time, or (B) you really did give up a seat at a good game because of losing your stack, including the "slowly grinded" profit of about $1000, in one hand because of a suckout. Because if it didn't bother you so much at that time, you would have immediately rebought to give yourself the +EV opportunity to take that big pair-donkey's money, (as well as the other fish at the table you had grinded a profit from) until the seat at the limit game opened.

So, which one is it?

This thread sucks enough to where I am not even going to delete sonatine's posts disrupting it.

I didn't exaggerate anything. I was in the game because I couldn't get into limit holdem. I lost a $6k pot on a river 8-outer in NL and decided I was too frustrated to continue playing. I stood up and left instead of continuing to wait for limit holdem.

I told the story to illustrate why I hate NL cash -- because one suckout can ruin hours of progress.

Limit beatdowns, which tend to be of the variety of losing like 23 of 25 hands played, are more palatable to me.