Harrah's accidentally overpays a Baccarat player $950, forces him to repay later under threat of arrest

[Dan Druff]

In December 2008, William Conner was playing Baccarat at Harrah's Reno, and was interrupted by a pit boss.

He was told that he was overpaid $950 on a bet at the other table, and they demanded that he return the money.

He refused, saying that they had no proof of this, and that he didn't remember any overpayment.

Nevada Gaming Control was called in, and they threatened the dude with arrest if he didn't return the $950. He gave in, but later sued both Harrah's and Nevada Gaming Control.

Here's the LA Times article about it:

http://www.standard.net/stories/2012...rpaid-winnings

... and here's the Las Vegas Sun article about the Gaming Control agents being cleared:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012...over-overpaym/

This is news again because the dismissal of the lawsuits against the Gaming Control agents just happened in March 2012, and the lawsuit against Harrah's begins in June 2012.

My take on this:

First off, I think the guy is full of shit about the overpayment. I'm pretty sure that Harrah's is correct on this one, and I doubt they'd have taken the matter this far if an overpayment didn't actually occur. It seems like he wanted to see if they had proof before paying it back, Harrah's wouldn't show him the proof, so he told them to fuck off until he was threatened with arrest.

So morally, it's hard to feel all that sorry for the guy. He could have avoided all of this if he just paid back what he was accidentally given.

However, I think it's complete BS that Harrah's refused to show him the surveillance video, and it sets a really bad precedent that you can be accused of something at a casino, yet not be able to see the video of the supposed accusation. This is especially bad if they are requiring you to give them money back under threat of arrest.

I can understand refusing to show someone surveillance video if they are simply being told to leave the casino and never come back, but when immediate demands of money are involved, the person should have the right to see, and not just forced to pay whatever is demanded, under threat of arrest.

[ShawnFanningsLimpDick]

He's obviously a degenerate whale so losing him as a customer over $950 is incredibly short-sighted by Harrah's. Yes he probably was overpaid but so what? He's going to give it straight back anyway.

[Dan Druff]

He's obviously a degenerate whale so losing him as a customer over $950 is incredibly short-sighted by Harrah's. Yes he probably was overpaid but so what? He's going to give it straight back anyway.

That's a good point, and yet another example of operational fail by Harrah's.

[lewfather]

You would assume this man will no longer be playing at harrahs establishments, I don't know how we can say this for certain. If the guy is a degenerate gambler theres a good chance he'll be right back in there.

[Bootsy Collins]

You would assume this man will no longer be playing at harrahs establishments, I don't know how we can say this for certain. If the guy is a degenerate gambler theres a good chance he'll be right back in there.

Simple straightforward question. Has Caesars/Harrahs become the whipping boy of the casino industry? They seem to always be 10 years behind everyone else.

[Dan Druff]

You would assume this man will no longer be playing at harrahs establishments, I don't know how we can say this for certain. If the guy is a degenerate gambler theres a good chance he'll be right back in there.

Simple straightforward question. Has Caesars/Harrahs become the whipping boy of the casino industry? They seem to always be 10 years behind everyone else.

They are actually innovative when it comes to ways to separate people from their money.

For example, they invented that awful (but unfortunately very popular) 6:5 single-deck blackjack game.

They're really good at ideas and marketing, but TERRIBLE at operations. This is yet another example.

[Steve-O]

Simple straightforward question. Has Caesars/Harrahs become the whipping boy of the casino industry? They seem to always be 10 years behind everyone else.

They are actually innovative when it comes to ways to separate people from their money.

For example, they invented that awful (but unfortunately very popular) 6:5 single-deck blackjack game.

They're really good at ideas and marketing, but TERRIBLE at operations. This is yet another example.

So you're saying Harrah's is the Phil Hellmuth of the casino industry: Excellent promoter and makes money hand over fist, but loud and obnoxious with an inflated sense of self and simply doesn't care what other people think of their antics?

[Bootsy Collins]

Simple straightforward question. Has Caesars/Harrahs become the whipping boy of the casino industry? They seem to always be 10 years behind everyone else.

They are actually innovative when it comes to ways to separate people from their money.

For example, they invented that awful (but unfortunately very popular) 6:5 single-deck blackjack game.

They're really good at ideas and marketing, but TERRIBLE at operations. This is yet another example.

There is a saying in the corporate/engineering world. You can have the best sales and marketing team but if your operations department is shit, then your corporation is shit.

[Dan Druff]

They are actually innovative when it comes to ways to separate people from their money.

For example, they invented that awful (but unfortunately very popular) 6:5 single-deck blackjack game.

They're really good at ideas and marketing, but TERRIBLE at operations. This is yet another example.

There is a saying in the corporate/engineering world. You can have the best sales and marketing team but if your operations department is shit, then your corporation is shit.

I like to say that Harrah's succeeds in spite of itself.

[Bootsy Collins]

There is a saying in the corporate/engineering world. You can have the best sales and marketing team but if your operations department is shit, then your corporation is shit.

I like to say that Harrah's succeeds in spite of itself.

Harrahs/Caesars are 10 years behind MGM, Sands and even Station Casinos in the hotel quality department. I think that their Linq project will be an epic fail. They have pretty much run the WSOP into the ground. They continue to have fuckups like this one and the incident at the Harrahs Chester that Bryan Devonshire was involved in. Like you and UB, I will stand firm that Caesars/Harrahs is a shady company and will continue to not even step foot on a property until drastic changes occur.

[John Stamos]

This is why I almost always stick to poker in casinos. I have been known to win large amounts at craps but I STILL don't really understand the payouts and everyone tells me it's an easy game. I could see myself being overpaid and most likely underpaid on craps and literally not having a clue.

I agree with Druff that the guy PROBABLY knew he was overpaid. But sometimes if you are playing like 3-4 hands on the table and placing bets and pulling in winnings you honestly might not know. I think they should 100% show you the security footage of them overpaying. They usually argue it's a threat to security and refuse to show the tape to anyone. I think this is BS.

I am not sure how I would react in that situation all I know is that I would be 100% calm and say "I will gladly pay you back and continue playing here, I know mistakes happen. However, I would like to see proof of this mistake, I hope you understand that I will not be parting with my money until that proof is shown, but like I said I will happily hand it over if I am shown proof of the mistake." Sort of emphasizing the fact I am not being hostile and will gladly pay if I am shown proof.

Anyone know the legal recourse if they don't show you proof? What would you be arrested for? I realize just turning the money over is +EV in the long run because you will mostly likely be banned from all establishments, but what if it's a casino you don't plan on coming back to. I don't think you HAVE to give them the money do you? I read a story once where (at a poker table) player 1 goes all in, player 2 calls and is covered by player 1. Player 2 loses the hand and racks up and leaves. Tons of people are called over and their reasoning was "we can't force him to pay but he will never play here again"

[John Stamos]

Also just for my clarification, Harrah's is now a part of Caesars Entertainment isn't it?

[Dan Druff]

Also just for my clarification, Harrah's is now a part of Caesars Entertainment isn't it?

Yes, same company.

[Shizzmoney]

I swear casinos, and the Lawyer/PR execs they pay to represent them, have to be some of the most poorly run businesses in America.

Just let the guy have the $950, and hell, send him a room deal.

You'll make that shit back in spades. Rule one of running any gaming room: "Degenerates gonna degenerate!"

[ftpjesus]

Simple straightforward question. Has Caesars/Harrahs become the whipping boy of the casino industry? They seem to always be 10 years behind everyone else.

They are actually innovative when it comes to ways to separate people from their money.

For example, they invented that awful (but unfortunately very popular) 6:5 single-deck blackjack game.

They're really good at ideas and marketing, but TERRIBLE at operations. This is yet another example.

Lets not forget Harrahs best move at all which was being the dirty player in the room behind Black Friday.. Lets be honest. Wynn signs a deal with PS while Fertitta Brothers (aka owners of UFC) Station Casino deal with FTP and shortly there afterwards Harrahs had a rep in Dirty Harry's office shortly there after Preet and Company in NY are shutting down and seizing domains and such. It was an old school move. If you cant beat your opponent you kill them and bury them in the desert outside of town.. Harrahs knew damn well without getting PS and FTP out of the US they could never compete in a legalized US market and foolish assume because they are associated with WSOP that alone will magically make them the favorites to win over players and suck up the rake when things are finally passed ... Problem is they also thought it would have happened by now but nothigns happens. Hell Obama thinks he can bypass Congress by executive order why not just legalize poker through some exec order because UIGEA is just too vague and he's attempting to clarify enforcement needs and do whats fair that the poor guy who wants to play recreationally should be able to in his own home.. (my point is he panders to illegals but yet millions who rival the illegal population inthis country want legal poker so whats it gonna be Obimbo or are you just a typical politican doing whats expediant to get votes)..

[Crowe Diddly]

Harrah's accidentally the whole thing!

[Bootsy Collins]

Harrah's accidentally the whole thing!

That pretty much says it all.