*** 2015 WSOP THREAD

[RegGaymer]

I don't remember the guy having QTo, as I thought he folded post. You can still get called by much worse than QT, so raising there is generally good -- unless the blinds have been 3-betting often, then consider limping or 2/4-betting ( also dependant on your table image and stacks).

I'd be more inclined to limp a 98o or a smaller connector versus players that defend often.

[anonamoose]

WSOP is over until November chump.

Anonamoose, you are either being intentionally obtuse, or you are a complete retard. Seriously!

Flatting in certain spots, such as late position or defending one's BB: will often be the optimal play, and in turn can lower variance (flatting or limping aces for example will increase variance, but might still be optimal). You don't lose equity, because you're investing chips to play post flop - where you figure to have a bigger edge against weaker opponents.

Like I said before; I'm not going to spoon feed you, as there's no profit for me in doing so. I'm only doing this to point out how much of an insufferable noob you are.

You keep trying to interchange things that are not interchangeable. Flatting and limping are not equal. I already told you I'm not talking about cold calling a raise, or even limping with other people having limped before you. This is about open limping.

You also completely ignored the fact that I asked you to define equity and now you're trying to make excuses.

You keep trying to use terms like variance, equity, limping, flatting, etc and you clearly have no idea what they mean.

At this point I'm just putting you on my ignore list because you're either beyond help in poker or just a terrible troll. Either way it's not worth it to continue.

[sonatine]

Limping QTo on the button is dumb. I don't care what anyone says.

I think taking dogmatic approaches to positional play while disregarding ephemerals like game tone, image, and history of the other people involved is a serious lost cause, personally.

[MumblesBadly]

72 year old Pierre Neuville is now the chip leader.

The old guy winning would be great for poker -- or at least the WSOP.

Definitely! Gives me hope that I still have time (over a decade) to learn how to play really well before I hit Social Security retirement age! Perhaps I should start a GoFundMe page to ask for stakes to give me time to learn how to play. Title might be "Help Middle-aged Fish Learn to Swim with the Poker Sharks!

[RegGaymer]

WSOP is over until November chump.

Anonamoose, you are either being intentionally obtuse, or you are a complete retard. Seriously!

Flatting in certain spots, such as late position or defending one's BB: will often be the optimal play, and in turn can lower variance (flatting or limping aces for example will increase variance, but might still be optimal). You don't lose equity, because you're investing chips to play post flop - where you figure to have a bigger edge against weaker opponents.

Like I said before; I'm not going to spoon feed you, as there's no profit for me in doing so. I'm only doing this to point out how much of an insufferable noob you are.

You keep trying to interchange things that are not interchangeable. Flatting and limping are not equal. I already told you I'm not talking about cold calling a raise, or even limping with other people having limped before you. This is about open limping.

You also completely ignored the fact that I asked you to define equity and now you're trying to make excuses.

You keep trying to use terms like variance, equity, limping, flatting, etc and you clearly have no idea what they mean.

At this point I'm just putting you on my ignore list because you're either beyond help in poker or just a terrible troll. Either way it's not worth it to continue.

LOL, says the guy who thinks you lose equity every time you don't make a raise. Good luck trying to figure out how variance relates to equity.

And ty for putting me on ignore, I'll no longer be on the receiving end of your incessant dogmatic fallacies.

[ShadyJ]

The BB was very short stacked -- came into the hand with like 8500 total. So he was a non-factor here.

I folded because there were just very few hands that the Asian likely had that were beating me. There was 55, 66, and 56.

The overpair he had shocked me.

I thought to myself, "If I had JJ-AA, am I calling this? Yes, I always am. Well, AT is just about the same in this spot, so I have to call here, too."

I forgot that the BB was shorted stacked. And now it makes sense why the Asian guy flatted with QQ. Since the BB had an M of about 4, he would likely shove with a lot of hands that QQ is way ahead of. And if BB only calls, QQ risked a very small fraction of his stack (3%) to potentially let a big pot develop that he most likely will win if the BB had a shove hand. And if the BB shoved, QQ is most likely ahead of you, so he would probably have shoved/called pre if you called/shoved given the your stack would only cut him down to about 30k if you win the pot.

In other words, Asian's shove on the flop would also be consistent with him having AT strongly beat WITH A MONSTER PAIR given that the BB's stack was worth flatting in late pos pre. Of course, this wouldn't matter in a cash game, because M is usually irrelevant (depends on whether BB was playing with last buyin/tilting). But given the BB facing low M pressure, flatting in late pos with a monster pair seems like a reasonable -- and expected -- possibility in this case.

This is good shit. The fact the BB just lost and was ss the Asian guy flatted thinking this was the perfect spot for the BB to shove. Cant fault Druff for not thinking of this possibility though its much easier after the fact with plenty of time to think up ranges.

[ShadyJ]

Limp trappin EP- Since I am the biggest loser of the forum sweetheart cmoney (lol) and spewed 1k on let me chime in

Limp trapping EP is actually genius, you disguise your hand. With the benefit of all those left after you, not knowing you are strong/real strong since you didnt raise/open. You are essentially equally coming along with the 'same' shit as them. Except in your mind, you are so far ahead of them, you know it you have the mathematical edge. Now its jsut a matter of playing it right.

Obviously ideally your limping to call early, your hoping it doesn't go cal cal call or so, 6+times around.

Its a high level play, so too much for this shitts forum, but i totally understand what StealthMunk and RegGaymer are saying/doing here. WorldClass move, limp strong, play strong. All them idiots on 4 think your supposed to always raise (LOL). ugh

Anyway, limp hoping someone after you raises, so you can then 4bet pre, and juice the pot is world class. I guess some of you are not understanding this. Stealthmunks a great tournament player, as were most the people still alive.

3bet

[ShadyJ]

Limping QTo on the button is dumb. I don't care what anyone says.

1) It becomes much harder to read your opponents' hands, as they could have any two.

2) If someone raises from the SB or BB, you don't know where you are. Do they have a premium or semi-premium? Are they just popping it because you seem weak? What if you call and flop a queen or a ten? Then what?

3) You are costing yourself the chance to take the blinds and antes if the SB and BB don't have callable hands. That's the biggest problem. If there's ever a time to do the QTo button limp, it's in the first level when it's 25-50 and you are only getting 75 out of blind stealing, so perhaps you want to entice weaker hands to play with you (and you're deep enough to get away from bad postflop spots). However, once the antes are in play, and once the blinds are large enough compared to the stacks, you should be happy to take them uncontested with an okay hand like QTo.


I more understand the 88 limp UTG, because you're never going to put in too much money with 88 anyway without flopping a set, and you might not want to get blown off the 88 pre (or have it get too expensive) with a preflop reraise by an opponent. I still prefer to raise the 88 UTG, but I can understand the reasoning behind limping. But the button limp is just LOL, as is folding QQ on the BB to an UTG raise pre.

I agree with this. Limping the btn early on is fine, but you have to be able to bet thin value post.

To Rygremer or whatever your name is. Of course you lose equity by limping the btn. You will almost always play the hand 3 handed which means you have 2 other people to share equity with. I feel like you 2 are arguing just to argue and neither really disagree on anything.

Theres only so many plays you can make in nlhe so now limping is the new thing but theres not many times in a tourney when its the correct play especially when the blinds are high and antes are in play.

[Suicide King]

What's the deal with stealthmunk saying he can't get paid?

[BeerAndPoker]

Bump for Main Event final table starting tonight.

ESPN is doing this over 3 days this year which is LOL. According to WSOP.com the production team and tournament director will determine the stop times for Sunday and Monday.

Fucking ESPN. Just let these players who waited months for this and will be running on adrenaline as it's going play it out already. Two days I can understand but three days is ridiculous.

[SrslySirius]

Bump for Main Event final table starting tonight.

ESPN is doing this over 3 days this year which is LOL. According to WSOP.com the production team and tournament director will determine the stop times for Sunday and Monday.

Fucking ESPN. Just let these players who waited months for this and will be running on adrenaline as it's going play it out already. Two days I can understand but three days is ridiculous.

It's hard to blame ESPN for wanting to have as much control as possible over the production process. I say this as someone that often felt hamstrung and frustrated in dealing with those people.

It's easier to blame WSOP for letting them have it, whoring out their customers and conceding so much to a cable network. It blew my mind the first time I saw ESPN guys giving commands to dealers. Contractual obligations are why live streams are limited in scope and platform. It might be why they dragged their feet on hand-for-hand this year. There's a lot of decisions made where the interests of ESPN come first, and they don't always align with everyone else's. This may have been a necessary evil 10 years ago, but I'm not so sure that it is anymore.

[BeerAndPoker]

It's hard to blame ESPN for wanting to have as much control as possible over the production process. I say this as someone that often felt hamstrung and frustrated in dealing with those people.

It's easier to blame WSOP for letting them have it, whoring out their customers and conceding so much to a cable network. It blew my mind the first time I saw ESPN guys giving commands to dealers. Contractual obligations are why live streams are limited in scope and platform. It might be why they dragged their feet on hand-for-hand this year. There's a lot of decisions made where the interests of ESPN come first, and they don't always align with everyone else's. This may have been a necessary evil 10 years ago, but I'm not so sure that it is anymore.

I agree with you on WSOP being the most to blame since it starts with them but you would think it would cost ESPN more to air this on three days versus two.

My guess is ESPN got tired of setting it at 6 hours a day or whatever low amount they did then it going over big time. This is because they have no clue how poker works because hell they even properly time slot college football games but what they do is fire them off to one of the other networks they have (if on ESPN move to ESPN2, ESPNU, ESPN NEWS, online WatchESPN,etc.... They could easily do this for poker but then again after midnight EST there really isn't anything live airing that often so going over shouldn't be that big of a concern.

A few years ago I believe it was when Greg Merson won it they played three handed the second night forever and it didn't end until 10am. They SNAPPED that one off so fast after the final hand to fire up Sportscenter.

It just sucks when it comes to the main event because of the long wait they have already for the final table and that the players are the ones who put up the money to enter this event in the first place, unlike some other pro sporting event.

I would say this new three day structure makes the final table more senior citizen friendly.