Does too many 'friends' in live MTT poker marginalize ones EV

[garrett]

It seems all 'pros' these days, are usually just friends of other pros who all have the back of one another.

So considering makeup/markup and the rest does it actually marginalize ones expectation to be a 'live pro'. All of those relationships and sharing of EV flattens your own. So is it smart moving forward to have a lot of friends in the MTT community?

The WSOP is around the corner, and all these global 'online ROW' players are gonna back around massive amounts of players as do many live MTT players on the WSOPc.

Is this idea -EV if you are actually a world class MTT player?

[RegGaymer]

It's a losing proposition grinding live mtt's unless you've already 'made it' and can afford to play high rollers while selling and swapping a little bit to reduce the cost.

To be a live pro these days you'd want to be playing $2/5 at a minimum to make any sort of decent hourly, and the games aren't as easy as some people make out so the competition would be tough, therefore you'd have to be a sharp cash game player.

It's definitely beneficial to have friends in the poker community for the social aspect, because grinding it out everyday on your own can be very isolating and minus live ev - even if you are making a bit of money.

[garrett]

It's a losing proposition grinding live mtt's unless you've already 'made it' and can afford to play high rollers while selling and swapping a little bit to reduce the cost.

To be a live pro these days you'd want to be playing $2/5 at a minimum to make any sort of decent hourly, and the games aren't as easy as some people make out so the competition would be tough, therefore you'd have to be a sharp cash game player.

It's definitely beneficial to have friends in the poker community for the social aspect, because grinding it out everyday on your own can be very isolating and minus live ev - even if you are making a bit of money.

Damn you get sharper and sharper with every post. I appreciate your honesty.

I ask for a reason, I am someone who does beat most cash games when I can play. I played alot with some, well actually 1 MTT pro now. Hes just a friend, it wasn't based off poker, and I obv got in trouble got set back some years. And now im ready to try, and I understand all of what you said, but I didn't play for all the years, in all the games I did, to just never try.

So I am in this kinda different spot, where most you all forum types think oh, well, if you haven't made it yet, you never will. Well they dont understand you can make a mistake or two in life, and that can set you back years ($$) in the game of poker. It takes time to get on your feet, and I get how in that time the game got tougher, but do you not try, because of what they all 'think', or do you ask and listen to people giving you honest opinions, and go ahead giving it the best effort you can. I choose the latter. The game of poker would be no good with no fresh blood, even tho, (keep it here) im not necc fresh bloood, lol I would love for everyone else to think that about me though, and they will when i sit down in vegas, 0 wsop or 0 any scores. Im just a fish.

That's why I ask, lets say I get sooo lucky, luckbox obv. And score, then others start approaching you to be 'friends', do you let them in, or do you close them out. I'm obviously a pretty good villain, and I believe poker is probably a much better world if you go about it alone.

I think the villain role is the only role in #2015

[YUUP]

It seems all 'pros' these days, are usually just friends of other pros who all have the back of one another.

So considering makeup/markup and the rest does it actually marginalize ones expectation to be a 'live pro'. All of those relationships and sharing of EV flattens your own. So is it smart moving forward to have a lot of friends in the MTT community?

The WSOP is around the corner, and all these global 'online ROW' players are gonna back around massive amounts of players as do many live MTT players on the WSOPc.

Is this idea -EV if you are actually a world class MTT player?

Don't worry your pretty little head

[Daredevil]

It's a losing proposition grinding live mtt's unless you've already 'made it' and can afford to play high rollers while selling and swapping a little bit to reduce the cost.

To be a live pro these days you'd want to be playing $2/5 at a minimum to make any sort of decent hourly, and the games aren't as easy as some people make out so the competition would be tough, therefore you'd have to be a sharp cash game player.

It's definitely beneficial to have friends in the poker community for the social aspect, because grinding it out everyday on your own can be very isolating and minus live ev - even if you are making a bit of money.

Damn you get sharper and sharper with every post. I appreciate your honesty.

I ask for a reason, I am someone who does beat most cash games when I can play. I played alot with some, well actually 1 MTT pro now. Hes just a friend, it wasn't based off poker, and I obv got in trouble got set back some years. And now im ready to try, and I understand all of what you said, but I didn't play for all the years, in all the games I did, to just never try.

So I am in this kinda different spot, where most you all forum types think oh, well, if you haven't made it yet, you never will. Well they dont understand you can make a mistake or two in life, and that can set you back years ($$) in the game of poker. It takes time to get on your feet, and I get how in that time the game got tougher, but do you not try, because of what they all 'think', or do you ask and listen to people giving you honest opinions, and go ahead giving it the best effort you can. I choose the latter. The game of poker would be no good with no fresh blood, even tho, (keep it here) im not necc fresh bloood, lol I would love for everyone else to think that about me though, and they will when i sit down in vegas, 0 wsop or 0 any scores. Im just a fish.

That's why I ask, lets say I get sooo lucky, luckbox obv. And score, then others start approaching you to be 'friends', do you let them in, or do you close them out. I'm obviously a pretty good villain, and I believe poker is probably a much better world if you go about it alone.

I think the villain role is the only role in #2015

Garrett, as much as I think 99% of everything you post is garbage.... I actually agree with you on this one.

If this is want you want to do, and you believe you've failed in the past due to off felt issues, go for it. Learn from the past, don't repeat the same mistakes, and don't listen to all the naysayers. Even if you fail, at least you'll have tried giving it your all. That, in and of itself, is priceless.

Good luck.

[RegGaymer]

Damn you get sharper and sharper with every post. I appreciate your honesty.

I ask for a reason, I am someone who does beat most cash games when I can play. I played alot with some, well actually 1 MTT pro now. Hes just a friend, it wasn't based off poker, and I obv got in trouble got set back some years. And now im ready to try, and I understand all of what you said, but I didn't play for all the years, in all the games I did, to just never try.

So I am in this kinda different spot, where most you all forum types think oh, well, if you haven't made it yet, you never will. Well they dont understand you can make a mistake or two in life, and that can set you back years ($$) in the game of poker. It takes time to get on your feet, and I get how in that time the game got tougher, but do you not try, because of what they all 'think', or do you ask and listen to people giving you honest opinions, and go ahead giving it the best effort you can. I choose the latter. The game of poker would be no good with no fresh blood, even tho, (keep it here) im not necc fresh bloood, lol I would love for everyone else to think that about me though, and they will when i sit down in vegas, 0 wsop or 0 any scores. Im just a fish.

That's why I ask, lets say I get sooo lucky, luckbox obv. And score, then others start approaching you to be 'friends', do you let them in, or do you close them out. I'm obviously a pretty good villain, and I believe poker is probably a much better world if you go about it alone.

I think the villain role is the only role in #2015

It's true that mistakes in poker can set you back a long way, esp in mtt's where all the equity is in the end game so if you're making icm or post flop mistakes or just getting rammed with bad luck at that point then it can be excruciatingly frustrating.

Large field mtt's suck balls with regard to the luck factor, but they attract so much dead money who want to hit the big score, so it's best to keep these to a minimum while game selecting small field mtt's with good structure. Unfortunately you'd have to be playing $1k+ events to realistically meet that criteria and still be able to make some ev, after deducting any travel + accommodation expenses.

Poker is essentially an individual game when you boil it down, but the way that these high rollers work for example you see these Germans and all their buddies who essentially share bankrolls by sharing pieces and having the same investors. They have a vested interest to soft play each other in certain spots, I don't care if they say that they gun just as hard against their pals, naturally when money is involved it's gonna affect things.

I would be friendly to anyone who might potentially approach you after you've gained some notoriety, but if you know that they are of a lower level or that they look like a degenerate scammer who is only talking to you with some pre meditated angle in mind, then keep it to small talk because they are essentially 'small fish'. Poker players tend to make friends and talk poker with people who are on a similar level to them. Stick to the whales and you'll be good.

[garrett]

Damn you get sharper and sharper with every post. I appreciate your honesty.

I ask for a reason, I am someone who does beat most cash games when I can play. I played alot with some, well actually 1 MTT pro now. Hes just a friend, it wasn't based off poker, and I obv got in trouble got set back some years. And now im ready to try, and I understand all of what you said, but I didn't play for all the years, in all the games I did, to just never try.

So I am in this kinda different spot, where most you all forum types think oh, well, if you haven't made it yet, you never will. Well they dont understand you can make a mistake or two in life, and that can set you back years ($$) in the game of poker. It takes time to get on your feet, and I get how in that time the game got tougher, but do you not try, because of what they all 'think', or do you ask and listen to people giving you honest opinions, and go ahead giving it the best effort you can. I choose the latter. The game of poker would be no good with no fresh blood, even tho, (keep it here) im not necc fresh bloood, lol I would love for everyone else to think that about me though, and they will when i sit down in vegas, 0 wsop or 0 any scores. Im just a fish.

That's why I ask, lets say I get sooo lucky, luckbox obv. And score, then others start approaching you to be 'friends', do you let them in, or do you close them out. I'm obviously a pretty good villain, and I believe poker is probably a much better world if you go about it alone.

I think the villain role is the only role in #2015

It's true that mistakes in poker can set you back a long way, esp in mtt's where all the equity is in the end game so if you're making icm or post flop mistakes or just getting rammed with bad luck at that point then it can be excruciatingly frustrating.

Large field mtt's suck balls with regard to the luck factor, but they attract so much dead money who want to hit the big score, so it's best to keep these to a minimum while game selecting small field mtt's with good structure. Unfortunately you'd have to be playing $1k+ events to realistically meet that criteria and still be able to make some ev, after deducting any travel + accommodation expenses.

Poker is essentially an individual game when you boil it down, but the way that these high rollers work for example you see these Germans and all their buddies who essentially share bankrolls by sharing pieces and having the same investors. They have a vested interest to soft play each other in certain spots, I don't care if they say that they gun just as hard against their pals, naturally when money is involved it's gonna affect things.

I would be friendly to anyone who might potentially approach you after you've gained some notoriety, but if you know that they are of a lower level or that they look like a degenerate scammer who is only talking to you with some pre meditated angle in mind, then keep it to small talk because they are essentially 'small fish'. Poker players tend to make friends and talk poker with people who are on a similar level to them. Stick to the whales and you'll be good.

I think you missed the point, and may actually be a 'newer' PFA poster.

On this forum it is pretty well known I got into legal trouble in 2010 in FL. Not because I shared it, but because the 'State of FL' feels free to even share misdemeanor charges with the world. I was on probation for 2 year in FL, couldnt leave the county and paid 5k (10% of a 50k bond), + court costs + all the extras (like anger management/safe neighborhood (lol) some other scam courses to raise revenue for FL. It was basically a fight with my dad and I stood no shot, no one even got hurt, and the State of Florida monetized it as much as humanly possible. But thats what you get in a broke State (FL) with no State income tax, non-union and....

I guess you don't know why others hate me here, its basically since they found that public record situation, and they use it against me. It took me a couple years to even be able to play again, by leaving the county, even though it was misdemeanor. lol in FL you would think MISDEMEANORS are FELONY, the way this State treats them people (BECAUSE FLORIDA IS BROKE with no State income TAX), and they try to destroy you.

Its over now, I got a job made a little money, and have a few people, who think I can play. Shocking thing is I only been in Florida 5 years, and the reason I got stuck is THAT. I am born and raised, JERSEY bred...

I underestimated the ridiculous overbearing arm of Florida. I want to go home, home, to New Jersey.

[RegGaymer]

Yeah I wasn't aware of the life mistakes that you were referring to, sounds like a nightmare tbf, thought you meant just general mistakes relating to poker.

Every decision is critical in pursuit of making it as a pro in poker, and even then it might not be enough to just make +ev moves all the time because you need that lucky break sometimes just like most other walks of life.

I wonder if the likes of Druff would be as comfortable in life now if he hadn't have binked that wsop bracelet years back..

[garrett]

RegGaymer,

True story I never actually 'lost' in poker. I lost making dumb mistakes in life, but I never lost playing poker, not like that/ That is also why I am still here. I lost because of legal issues, and mistakes, but I never actually felt sorrow because I bought into a game, that I couldn't/shouldn't play, and lost.

In fact I am actually the opposite. Some people just say that shit, but I am dead serious, the most money I ever won in my life, was by playing poker, cash games. The most I ever lost was via the law!

[SrslySirius]

I guess you don't know why others hate me here, its basically since they found that public record situation, and they use it against me.

Nobody hates you for that, they just tease you about it. It's your attitude and manic episodes that make people dislike you.

[garrett]

Yeah I wasn't aware of the life mistakes that you were referring to, sounds like a nightmare tbf, thought you meant just general mistakes relating to poker.

Every decision is critical in pursuit of making it as a pro in poker, and even then it might not be enough to just make +ev moves all the time because you need that lucky break sometimes just like most other walks of life.

I wonder if the likes of Druff would be as comfortable in life now if he hadn't have binked that wsop bracelet years back..

lol I love Druff, I mean that. But he did run hot as the sun, at a time the game was significantly weaker. So did that fish Jeff Madsen, whos just a rich kid from Cali, whose Mommi and Daddi let him monetize his 'college fund' (lol) to buy into WSOP events must be nice..

I respect Druff because of what he does, beyond the game, he genuinely tries to clean the game up, to make it a better place, for everyone to play. So he belongs in the upper echelon of all poker people. I mean that. The other punk kid, rich kid Madsen, lol, have a nice day. Go get some scores or make a difference kid, without mommmy and daddys money, and come reapply....

What I respect about Druff most, is that I get his core mission, as a pro that he is. And I like to think I have some of it in me, but its all based off a fair game. If you do not have a FAIR GAME, it doesn't matter how good you are, the scumbags are going to win, and then get all the money and glory and thats not right. If you are a truly talented player, who put in the work, and time to be great you shouldn't have your EV, and shine taken away by a group of scumbags who actually only steal EV from, actually good players.

I see Druff eye to eye on that. And I played alot on sealswithclubs, and ALOT of players KNOW, im not cheat, because I believe and have proven to them at least I can win. But only in a fair game. If the game isn't fair scumbags are going to steal EV from the actual GOOD players, WHO SHOULD BE WINNING.

And thats Druffs premise. When you actually are good, fundamentally sound you hate cheaters because they steal our EV. Druff knows that, and I back him and that 100%!!!

[RegGaymer]

lol I love Druff, I mean that. But he did run hot as the sun, at a time the game was significantly weaker.

Yeah, just looking at his hendon mob page and his largest score is like 40% of his total live winnings. No matter how weak it was back in 05' that's still some pretty redic heat. To put it into perspective, I have a similar amount in online winnings at an abi of $15 but my largest score is ~1% of my total winnings, but if I had closed out some of my near misses that number would be over 10%.

Times are different now though, I remember reading Doyle's Super System years ago and he said that he'd essentially gamble his net worth on a favorable equity spot because if he lost he'd be confident of rolling it back up from the bottom. In 2015 this would be nigh impossible.

[garrett]

lol I love Druff, I mean that. But he did run hot as the sun, at a time the game was significantly weaker.

Yeah, just looking at his hendon mob page and his largest score is like 40% of his total live winnings. No matter how weak it was back in 05' that's still some pretty redic heat. To put it into perspective, I have a similar amount in online winnings at an abi of $15 but my largest score is ~1% of my total winnings, but if I had closed out some of my near misses that number would be over 10%.

Times are different now though, I remember reading Doyle's Super System years ago and he said that he'd essentially gamble his net worth on a favorable equity spot because if he lost he'd be confident of rolling it back up from the bottom. In 2015 this would be nigh impossible.

So do you quit, or don't even try. Because theoretically, its been so 'provably' unbeatable, over time. I mean, honestly should we all quit and let you equity sharing marginal players continue to chop away at one anothers equity, or do you introduce, some truly decent, with maybe some potential new variables?


I mean what is poker worth, if everyone else just quit trying. Because all the people 'playing' were the only ones able to win (LOL)???

[garrett]

I cant fucking stand most everyone who plays poker, and just thinks they know everything, because they lay poker. Ill be honest withyou all. Im not a very nice guy. But when I sit down, good luck

I dont want anyone to like me, I don't think playing poker should be a game where the media, and all the stupid offshore sites liek you. I dont like them they should not like me.

I play a VERY lonely game. Its all about me when it comes to poker.

[Sloppy Joe]

Sweet mother of god, get a room

[Dan Druff]

I didn't play a single tournament until I had a fairly big and stable bankroll. I didn't have an interest in tournaments at all until 2005, when I played because it was gently suggested by John D'Agostino, and I hit that lucky 3rd place. Then I played the next one on Interpoker's dime, and won it.

But I didn't need those two tournaments for a bankroll. They helped, yes, but my best cash year ever was 2004 (still remains true today).

I also already had a bankroll because I was a cheap Jew and worked a pretty good job for 8 years. I didn't start playing poker until I was almost 29.

However, I still worked my way up from $3/$6 limit, and never used my "life bankroll" to supplement swings. Even if I started off nearly broke, I would have won the same amount in poker, because I only moved up when I had been a stable winner at the level below.

I was fortunate in that I learned to play winning poker BEFORE the poker boom, so I was in the perfect place when all of the fish suddenly showed up in 2003.

[Dan Druff]

I also was fairly game selective and tried to play mainly in spots where I had a good edge.

Sometimes I would get tilted and stay in games that were no longer good, and I would always feel like an idiot if I lost more because of that. However, for the most part I did pretty well with finding the good games and sticking to them.

I was also pretty good at finding "off the beaten path" sites in the pre-UIGEA days, where the other limit pros didn't hang out. For example, I took 200k one year off the Boss Media network, which was virtually unknown to pro limit players at the time, and I was the #1 winner on the entire network. The games were insanely good.

I do have one regret that I didn't do the "wait at HU tables for fish to sit" thing, because I have friends who made a fortune doing that. I never had the patience for it, but in hindsight that was stupid, and it could have "rescued" some of my lesser years.

BTW the low point of my poker existence was early 2007, when I just got hammered at everything I played, and was down 300k by March. I was seriously considering quitting poker for good and just keeping what was still a large lifetime profit from poker. I took a breath, regrouped, and decided to take a shot at Absolute Poker, where I hadn't played since a short stint in 2005. I started my soon-to-be-infamous ALECTRO account and owned the games there, and within about 3 months, I recovered the entire 300k I was down. Unfortunately, in August GRAYCAT showed up, and that was the end of my play over there.

[tyde]

I also was fairly game selective and tried to play mainly in spots where I had a good edge.

Sometimes I would get tilted and stay in games that were no longer good, and I would always feel like an idiot if I lost more because of that. However, for the most part I did pretty well with finding the good games and sticking to them.

I was also pretty good at finding "off the beaten path" sites in the pre-UIGEA days, where the other limit pros didn't hang out. For example, I took 200k one year off the Boss Media network, which was virtually unknown to pro limit players at the time, and I was the #1 winner on the entire network. The games were insanely good.

I do have one regret that I didn't do the "wait at HU tables for fish to sit" thing, because I have friends who made a fortune doing that. I never had the patience for it, but in hindsight that was stupid, and it could have "rescued" some of my lesser years.

BTW the low point of my poker existence was early 2007, when I just got hammered at everything I played, and was down 300k by March. I was seriously considering quitting poker for good and just keeping what was still a large lifetime profit from poker. I took a breath, regrouped, and decided to take a shot at Absolute Poker, where I hadn't played since a short stint in 2005. I started my soon-to-be-infamous ALECTRO account and owned the games there, and within about 3 months, I recovered the entire 300k I was down. Unfortunately, in August GRAYCAT showed up, and that was the end of my play over there.

lol God what a massively self centered douche you are

[garrett]

I also was fairly game selective and tried to play mainly in spots where I had a good edge.

Sometimes I would get tilted and stay in games that were no longer good, and I would always feel like an idiot if I lost more because of that. However, for the most part I did pretty well with finding the good games and sticking to them.

I was also pretty good at finding "off the beaten path" sites in the pre-UIGEA days, where the other limit pros didn't hang out. For example, I took 200k one year off the Boss Media network, which was virtually unknown to pro limit players at the time, and I was the #1 winner on the entire network. The games were insanely good.

I do have one regret that I didn't do the "wait at HU tables for fish to sit" thing, because I have friends who made a fortune doing that. I never had the patience for it, but in hindsight that was stupid, and it could have "rescued" some of my lesser years.

BTW the low point of my poker existence was early 2007, when I just got hammered at everything I played, and was down 300k by March. I was seriously considering quitting poker for good and just keeping what was still a large lifetime profit from poker. I took a breath, regrouped, and decided to take a shot at Absolute Poker, where I hadn't played since a short stint in 2005. I started my soon-to-be-infamous ALECTRO account and owned the games there, and within about 3 months, I recovered the entire 300k I was down. Unfortunately, in August GRAYCAT showed up, and that was the end of my play over there.

lol God what a massively self centered douche you are

He has World Series Bracelets, and huge scores.

You can't hate on that. I think in order to be great you do have to be self-centred on ALOT of levels.

This should not bother you in the poker world.

[simpdog]

ITT: people who have no friends.