Printable View
Druff or anyone else who plays this game:
9 handed.
Villain is a young competent reg but don't have a ton of reads on him.
Haven't played many hands together so not sure how he views me.
villain opens utg, mp (random tourist)cold calls, hero 3! on btn with QQ, blinds fold.
flop K82 rainbow.
checks to hero, bet, both call.
turn A completes rainbow.
checks around.
river 6. checks to hero. bet, utg c/r, mp folds....hero?
Ouch, tough one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Action
You are probably not good here, but you should pay it off in case it's a trick to get you to fold.
A competent regular might like that move in order to run people off hands where they don't hold an ace.
I will say that I often use this move when I think someone will try to value-bet me after I blew a check-raise. So that's probably what he was doing here, but I don't think you can be confident enough in the read here to fold.
BTW, it's a lot easier to fold to a turn check-raise, but you're obviously robbing yourself of a free card. To be honest, most times I would probably play it like you did on the flop and turn.
If I was a better player Id fold since UTG is c/r'ing into not one, but two people with action after him.
If I was a tremendously good player Id 3 bet and fold to a 4bet to my gook face because he clearly has pocket 6's.
Its close. I'd call tho cause the kids sharp and could have caught on that yer sharp and yer play looks exactly like QQ JJ TT so he could be making a move. Pretty unlikely, but I never fold on the river for 1 bet.
Let's review the hand:
3 betting with QQ after a solid player raises UTG. If he is one of those super aggressive young punks who think they know it all, OK. If he plays standard starting hands, a raise is questionable, but not totally out of line. I wouldn't, because there is only one or two possible hands he could have where I am way ahead. If you don't understand why, you have no business playing at the 20/40 level, but please feel free to jump in my game.
On the flop, you have to check! When 3 players see a flop for 3 bets and you hold QQ, you are going to be up against AK a lot of the time. Just because they check to you doesn't mean they don't have it. They are out of position and you came over the top of them pre-flop. Also, the pot is already so big, they are getting about 11/1 to call, which means that even calling with bottom pair is not totally out of line. Your bet will not chase away anyone who has caught any part of the flop.
If you do bet the flop, you have to bet the turn. This will be your only chance to win without a showdown. When you checked, even your worst opponents will know you have an underpair to the board.
If you now bet the river after checking the turn, if it is a value bet, it is clearly wrong. No one is going to call you with less than a pair of kings. If you are betting the river as a bluff, OK, but in limit hold'em, just realize that a $40 bet into a $360 pot is going to get called almost every time by one of your two opponents.
After the check-raise, the pot is $480. I would probably make a crying call, getting 12/1. Just note that by betting the flop, you have probably cost yourself 3.5 big blinds. Three mistakes like this a day are enough to make you a losing player in the long run. Saving bets is critical in limit. Probably even more important than maximizing value on your big hands.
Unfortunately a lot of the above advice strikes me as 1990s thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayjami
I can't believe that you're advocating NOT 3-betting QQ to a raise in limit holdem. I don't think I've ever seen a winning player in any of my games flat QQ pre-flop to one raise. This includes both mid limit games and high limit games. It just doesn't happen.
Now, sure, if you are against the tightest of tight players who would only raise UTG with AA or KK, sure, I guess you can just call and see if you can spike the miracle Q. But honestly I can't remember the last time I played with a guy that tight.
The big reason to 3-bet QQ is because the hand does NOT play well against a lot of opponents. The last thing you want to do with QQ is invite additional callers. Hands like QQ-AA usually win "unassisted" -- that is, without additional help from the board. The percent chance that you win unassisted goes way down when there are several people in the hand. This is the opposite of hands like 78 suited, where you WANT a lot of additional players, and where you always need help from the board to win.
The rest of your advice isn't bad. I don't like the check-behind with the overcard on the flop, because it's basically turning your hand face up, and then you're forced to pay off the next two streets if they're betting into you. This can be effective, though, if you mix it up with checking behind with a monster, but I find it's just better to always c-bet flops like that, and save the non-c-betting for spots where you're almost certainly behind and just want out of the hand. (A good example would be raising with A4 suited in late position, getting 3 callers, and the flop coming 9TJ.)
I also disgaree with this:
Actually people will call you with nearly any pair here. I've seen it time and time again, both online and live. If they have 77, they will talk themselves into believing you have 66 or even something like QJ suited. You will actually miss a lot of value in today's game by believing "they'll never call me with worse". You'd be shocked how often people DO call you with much worse, and I'm not just talking about mega donks.Quote:
If you now bet the river after checking the turn, if it is a value bet, it is clearly wrong. No one is going to call you with less than a pair of kings. If you are betting the river as a bluff, OK, but in limit hold'em, just realize that a $40 bet into a $360 pot is going to get called almost every time by one of your two opponents.
BTW I just played at Commerce recently and had a somewhat similar hand where I got raised on the river. In my case, I was the SB and the button raised me, after HE checked the turn behind. I came so close to throwing it away, but called both because the player was new (so he could be an aggro semidonk trying to make a move), as well as the fact that I couldn't understand his turn check. Just like your situation, the scare card hit the turn and the river was a blank. I called and he immediately tossed his hand away.
I agree that in your spot you were more likely beat, but I would still call unless it's against the type of player who never river bluffs.
Appreciate your criticism. If this hand came up at the Commerce, I would definitely agree with your thinking. A lot of the play at the 20/40 level is downright terrible. I find the 20/40 games at the Bellagio to be tighter. You may disagree with me, but a raise under the gun by a solid player deserves respect, especially in Vegas. That is why I qualified my response. I just disagree that a raise is mandatory.
On the flop there is only one possible straight draw and no flush draw. What are 2 players calling you with when you bet on the flop? If it were heads up, that's a completely different story.
I don't agree with value betting on the river against two opponents, however. My experience is that QQ is almost always beat with 2 overcards on the board, and then there is the specter of a check-raise, which is exactly what happened here (although it is really strange in this situation, which made the problem very interesting).
You say that my thinking is "1990s". I agree with you. I am very old school, but it has served me well over the years. 20 years and I'm still in the game. However, this old dog is always willing to keep an open mind and consider other strategies. I am always trying to improve my play.