Limit holdem with Dan Druff

This thread will be a series of real life hands I explain, for those curious about advanced limit holdem strategy. I will pick hands which are non-standard, as some limit holdem hands mostly play themselves.

Situation: $30/$60 online, 3-handed. BB is a top pro -- he is aggro pre but is careful post to not put his money in bad. Button (BTN) is okay but calls a bit too loosely in spots.

Pre: Dealt 6d6s
BTN raises
I 3-bet
BB caps, both BTN and I call

Flop: Td5d6c

I check, BB bets, BTN calls, I raise, both call.

Turn 3d

I bet, BB raises, BTN calls, I 3-bet, both call.

River Jc

I bet, BB calls, BTN folds.


Obviously BB didn't have the nuts, but did he have a flush or higher set to beat me?

Why do you think I 3-bet the turn out of position with just a set, given the flush possibility out there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

This thread will be a series of real life hands I explain, for those curious about advanced limit holdem strategy. I will pick hands which are non-standard, as some limit holdem hands mostly play themselves.

Situation: $30/$60 online, 3-handed. BB is a top pro -- he is aggro pre but is careful post to not put his money in bad. Button (BTN) is okay but calls a bit too loosely in spots.

Pre: Dealt 6d6s
BTN raises
I 3-bet
BB caps, both BTN and I call

Flop: Td5d6c

I check, BB bets, BTN calls, I raise, both call.

Turn 3d

I bet, BB raises, BTN calls, I 3-bet, both call.

River Jc

I bet, BB calls, BTN folds.


Obviously BB didn't have the nuts, but did he have a flush or higher set to beat me?

Why do you think I 3-bet the turn out of position with just a set, given the flush possibility out there?

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Here's a breakdown:

Preflop is standard.

Postflop: There are 3 choices -- check-raise, slow play til turn, and donk bet. I decided to check-raise because it's 3-handed, and nobody is likely to necessarily give me credit for a set. If I'm facing an overpair from the BB, which is very possible, he will often keep hammering. If I slowplay and then check-raise turn, they're usually shutting down unless they can beat me (even if the flush card doesn't hit). On average, you simply get more by check-raising flop in this situation. You also become harder to read in subsequent hands.

Turn: This is the hardest street. Did this flush hit someone? I thought it might have hit BTN, but not BB. Why? Because BB capped pre, meaning he likely had either big cards or a pair in his hand. Is it possible he had something like AdKd? Yes, but he would often pound that on the flop, given both that he has position on me AND has the overcard/flush combo. So I don't really trust a raise from BB here, whereas a raise from BTN would be very concerning, as he played the flop like he might have had a draw, but also might just be calling along with something weak. When I get raised by BB, and BTN flats, it means two things to me -- BB was slowplaying something, and BTN doesn't have the flush. So when I 3-bet turn out of position, I can do so with some decent confidence that I either have the best hand, or if I don't, one of them will think I will. Note that a 3-bet out of position looks strong against 2 people with 3 diamonds on the board, and even if BB has TT to beat me, he's likely not continuing to pound it.

River: Pretty good card, though now I'm wondering a bit if JJ could be the hand BB has. I bet, he calls (which again, doesn't mean much), and BTN folds. So BTN did have trash!

What did BB show down? KK for an overpair, and I win. He had Kd and felt it was the right spot to raise, but I correctly charged him.

Note that I can be wrong some % of the time here and have this still be the right move, since this is limit holdem. I'm definitely NOT folding. I felt the most likely scenario was that neither had me beat on the turn, and this allowed me to charge them each 2 more big blinds (1 more turn bet).

Again, had BB flatted my turn bet and BTN raised, I would NOT have 3-bet, and assumed the flush was hit by BTN.

Hope you enjoyed the analysis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

This thread will be a series of real life hands I explain, for those curious about advanced limit holdem strategy. I will pick hands which are non-standard, as some limit holdem hands mostly play themselves.

Situation: $30/$60 online, 3-handed. BB is a top pro -- he is aggro pre but is careful post to not put his money in bad. Button (BTN) is okay but calls a bit too loosely in spots.

Pre: Dealt 6d6s
BTN raises
I 3-bet
BB caps, both BTN and I call

Flop: Td5d6c

I check, BB bets, BTN calls, I raise, both call.

Turn 3d

I bet, BB raises, BTN calls, I 3-bet, both call.

River Jc

I bet, BB calls, BTN folds.


Obviously BB didn't have the nuts, but did he have a flush or higher set to beat me?

Why do you think I 3-bet the turn out of position with just a set, given the flush possibility out there?

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Im not good enough to fold a set except maybe if a 4flusher or better out there. I really like bovada/ignition and the annonymous shtick. I do miss the old version were you could tell people you are going to kill their families and anything else you wanted to with no repprecusion of a chat ban. I never said anything like that but maybe die in a grease fire. Now they only have generic shit like gg, haha. wellplayed really lame.
There are some good players on ignition even on the lowest level and a proportinate amount of donks.

This is a fantastic thread, and I hope you will continue to post hand histories often. I will say, the 30 game was too tough for me. I have stepped back down to 10/20, which is no piece of cake either.

Something I learned from playing 30/60 on ACR/Bovada, is that one needs a minimum of a 100k role to play in that game. Seriously, 100k to handle the swings. For 10/20, I think at least 20k is fine.

Anyway, I have been playing limit hold 'em online since the late 90's, and the games have never been tougher than they are right now IMO. I am the first to admit I am nowhere near as good as Druff, but I'm sure he would agree the games are not like they were years ago. Anyway, please keep this thread going!

Best name on bodog was this guy You Feed My Kids, he was really good too.

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Originally Posted by Online Veteran

This is a fantastic thread, and I hope you will continue to post hand histories often. I will say, the 30 game was too tough for me. I have stepped back down to 10/20, which is no piece of cake either.

Something I learned from playing 30/60 on ACR/Bovada, is that one needs a minimum of a 100k role to play in that game. Seriously, 100k to handle the swings. For 10/20, I think at least 20k is fine.

Anyway, I have been playing limit hold 'em online since the late 90's, and the games have never been tougher than they are right now IMO. I am the first to admit I am nowhere near as good as Druff, but I'm sure he would agree the games are not like they were years ago. Anyway, please keep this thread going!

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Is there any 30/60 going on ACR? I thought it was dead.

I don't think you quite need a 100k roll for that 30/60 on Bovada, but you do need more than 30k. I've blown through 30k on that site more than once. When you run bad in that game, you can get absolutely clobbered, given the aggerssion of it (and the fact that it's both online and shorthanded).

The game has evolved since the '90s, and even since 10 years ago.

If I can give you a piece of adjustment advice for the "modern" game, it's to check back the flop in position WAY more often than you used to. So if you raise with A4 on the button and the board comes T75, and it's just you and the BB, check it back. I know it's tempting to c-bet and hope he folds, but you're going to get check-raised a fair amount of time here (even if you hold the best hand), and you just don't want to invest that much money. Then just call down turn/river, unless it gets to look really bad. That by itself will save you a bunch of bets over time, especially because some donks won't understand what you're doing, and will fire turn and river without being able to beat ace high.

Another piece of adjustment advice is to keep hammering a strong A high if not getting shown resistance, especially against one opponent.

So let's say someone raises from the cutoff, you 3-bet AQ from middle-ish position and the BB calls, and the cutoff calls.

Board comes 223. That's a pretty good flop actually. So you'll want to fire flop, turn, and river if the board doesn't coordinate and only low cards roll off. Why? Because the either (or both) may have A or K high and might pay you off.

Finally, don't waste bets trying to bluff people in most spots when they were previously showing aggression and then checking. The checking in that spot usually means, "I want to see showdown, but I don't want to get raised." So you don't want to keep firing with the worst hand, only to lose extra money to some crap A high. For example, let's say the cutoff raises and you defend with 65. Then the board comes 472. You check, he checks. Now there's a T on the turn. I know what you want to do -- fire your open-ender, hoping he tosses it. Don't. He probably has A high, won't fold, and is a good deal ahead of you EV-wise. So just check/call again, and then fire the river if you hit (because he won't bet river if he just has A high). Many people don't understand this concept and will just bet with any decent draw after a check-behind by an opponent, not understanding WHY their opponent is checking behind.

When the diamond came on the turn with 3 players, there’s almost always a flush out there, but you’re only playing three handed, so it’s a little less likely. Three betting is fine, because you either have the best hand or outs. If you lose to a bigger full house, well that shit happens. If a fourth diamond comes on the river, it’s a clear fold. The old man? I’d make the standard play and just check and call when the diamond came.

If this had been at a final table at a tournament, the correct play would to be get as much money in the pot as possible. We flopped a set 3 handed!

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Originally Posted by Jayjami

When the diamond came on the turn with 3 players, there’s almost always a flush out there, but you’re only playing three handed, so it’s a little less likely. Three betting is fine, because you either have the best hand or outs. If you lose to a bigger full house, well that shit happens. If a fourth diamond comes on the river, it’s a clear fold. The old man? I’d make the standard play and just check and call when the diamond came.

If this had been at a final table at a tournament, the correct play would to be get as much money in the pot as possible. We flopped a set 3 handed!

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Yes, the 3-handed thing is a huge difference. I wouldn't have played it the same if it were a full ring table. It's actually a lot less likely 3-handed because players are calling far lighter to flop aggression in a 3-handed game. In full ring, if someone is flatting raises with 2 flush cards out there, and then the 3rd flush card hits, you shit your pants and assume you're beat. In 3-handed, not necessarily so.

Oh and you're correct, the outs also matter. Forgot to mention that in my writeup. That's the other part -- you're rarely drawing dead there with second set. I wouldn't fold the river for one bet, though. Tonnnnns of times in those shorthanded Bovada games, the 4th flush card rolls off, and nobody has it. If there's a sudden bet and call from someone previously being passive, though, then you can easily let it go.

Thank you for the analysis, I learned a few new things reading it. 30/60 and 40/80 do run on ACR, but not every day. I appreciate your honesty about blowing through 30K, that makes me feel like I am not alone when I am getting crushed.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than 100k if I played 30-60 online for a living. Looking forward to the next hand you dissect.

when did todd lose 30k ? I missed that post

bump recap of 30k loss please

how about some 20-40 Bellagio/aria. advice fellas...ty. this is great stuff druff et al..ty

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Originally Posted by shoeshine box

how about some 20-40 Bellagio/aria. advice fellas...ty. this is great stuff druff et al..ty

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20-40 in Vegas and LA tends to be a good game with a lot of limping and passive players. Occasionally it can be tougher if it's the biggest limit holdem game in the room.

My advice in general is that, unless you're an expert at the game, find the SECOND biggest game in the room (provided you can afford it), and play that. I'll even do this sometimes. Say I'm at Commerce and there's a 100-200 and 60-120 going. Many times I'll skip the 100-200, as that is full of the LA limit holdem all-stars, and I'll play the 60, which will usualy be a good game because the really good players will be absent (since they'll be in the 100).

Anyway, Bellagio often has a 20-40 and 40-80 limit holdem game. 20-40 is too small for me live, so I play the 40 no matter what, but I will play the 20 if waiting for a seat.

The 20 is usually full ring, and has a lot of limpers. Try to control the betting. Be aggressive, especially preflop, but don't be overly or stupidly aggressive. If a shitload of limpers are in front of you, go ahead and also limp with a fairly wide range of hands, such as connectors (suited or unsuited), suited 1-gappers, etc. You probably still want to throw away ace-trash hands like A6o, because there's nowhere to go with them. Raise with medium-big pairs and big cards. If there's only 1 or 2 limpers in front of you, raise pre, unless you're early position.

On the flop, respect any action from players who aren't aggressive, and don't become married to calling the river just because you called the flop and turn.

Value bet the river if you think there's a decent chance you have the best hand, but know that most players are calling you on the river if they called up til that point, unless they missed a draw.

A simpler approach is to just be tight-aggressive and straightforward, as that will slowly win you money in a game like that. In my opinion, that's not the optimal approach, but it is the simplest.

Looking forward to the next limit hold 'em strategy post, I learn a lot from these. Druff, I know it's a longshot (as you will be in CO with your family), but I'll throw it out there anyway. I will be in Vegas from June 21 - June 25. I would love to treat you to dinner at the Prime Steakhouse at Bellagio.

I have never had A5 Japanese Wagyu beef before (could never afford it). I think I will try the F1 Japanese Filet Mignon. If you're in town and available, please let me know. I will mainly be playing 20-40 and 40-80 limit hold 'em, but I might play some 2-5 as well. Have a great day!

Online Veteran

All solid 20/40 advice. One other thing. Just because you’re in a loose game with a lot of limpers, you still have to play super tight in early position. If you’re playing hands like AJ and 66 under the gun, you’re going to get killed.

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Originally Posted by Jayjami

All solid 20/40 advice. One other thing. Just because you’re in a loose game with a lot of limpers, you still have to play super tight in early position. If you’re playing hands like AJ and 66 under the gun, you’re going to get killed.

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I actually don't agree with this (especially the 66), if you can play well postflop. I will say that it's very important to fold if there's an early raise in front of you if you have a hand like AJo, as that is likely to get killed.

Any pocket pair is good in those games, because you will get paid very well when flopping a set. In fact, even without much postflop action, a set will do well, since there's enough in the pot preflop, and a set is a much more difficult hand to outrun than top pair.

However, I will say that if you open-fold hands like AJ and 66 UTG in loose-passive full ring games, you're not giving up much value, so it's not a terrible thing to do. You may want to consider limping with them if you know that you'll get a lot of cold callers anyway.

Let's now talk about heads up value betting, which is very important at middle and upper stakes limit holdem games.

In NL, value betting is less important than trapping, getting calls with monster hands, and bluffing.

In limit, value betting is a huge part of being a winner. If you fail to do it, then it will grind you down into being a loser, unless the competition is awful.

Let's take this simple example of a hand I played today:

6-max, 30/60, I'm in the BB with Js5s

Folded to SB, who raised, and I called.

Flop

4h5d6h

SB bets. You should raise here. You likely have the best hand.

Turn:

Qd

Not the best card, as it's possible SB has a queen, and also possible he has diamonds and will act tricky. But you can't fear that. You need to bet here, and call down if raised. SB checks, you bet, he calls.

River:

Qh

This now completes the floped flush draw, but is actually a good card. Why? Because it doesn't introduce a new pair into the situation which beats yours, nor does it make a possible 1-card straight.

SB checks. You need to bet again. You might say, "Wait, he wouldn't call with worse!"

But he would. Remember, the flop was 456, and you raised. The SB will likely suspect you could have a busted straight draw, and very likely call with A or even K high, despite the fact that a flopped flush draw or pair is beating him.

Many will check this behind, but you need to bet here. If raised, you probably need to call, but may be able to fold, player dependent. Most times you will get called with ace high or worse in this spot, so if you're not being raised, there's a high chance you win, unless you're facing a better 5 or a weak 6.

Indeed, my opponent had A9o, called the river, and I took down the pot.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Let's now talk about heads up value betting, which is very important at middle and upper stakes limit holdem games.

In NL, value betting is less important than trapping, getting calls with monster hands, and bluffing.

In limit, value betting is a huge part of being a winner. If you fail to do it, then it will grind you down into being a loser, unless the competition is awful.

Let's take this simple example of a hand I played today:

6-max, 30/60, I'm in the BB with Js5s

Folded to SB, who raised, and I called.

Flop

4h5d6h

SB bets. You should raise here. You likely have the best hand.

Turn:

Qd

Not the best card, as it's possible SB has a queen, and also possible he has diamonds and will act tricky. But you can't fear that. You need to bet here, and call down if raised. SB checks, you bet, he calls.

River:

Qh

This now completes the floped flush draw, but is actually a good card. Why? Because it doesn't introduce a new pair into the situation which beats yours, nor does it make a possible 1-card straight.

SB checks. You need to bet again. You might say, "Wait, he wouldn't call with worse!"

But he would. Remember, the flop was 456, and you raised. The SB will likely suspect you could have a busted straight draw, and very likely call with A or even K high, despite the fact that a flopped flush draw or pair is beating him.

Many will check this behind, but you need to bet here. If raised, you probably need to call, but may be able to fold, player dependent. Most times you will get called with ace high or worse in this spot, so if you're not being raised, there's a high chance you win, unless you're facing a better 5 or a weak 6.

Indeed, my opponent had A9o, called the river, and I took down the pot.

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Agree that you want to bet the river here, but only because it’s a Queen. If a 10, K or Ace comes on the river, I’m checking, or making a crying call. He raised before the flop. Unless he is an aggressive blind player, he’ll usually have a high card or little pair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Let's now talk about heads up value betting, which is very important at middle and upper stakes limit holdem games.

In NL, value betting is less important than trapping, getting calls with monster hands, and bluffing.

In limit, value betting is a huge part of being a winner. If you fail to do it, then it will grind you down into being a loser, unless the competition is awful.

Let's take this simple example of a hand I played today:

6-max, 30/60, I'm in the BB with Js5s

Folded to SB, who raised, and I called.

Flop

4h5d6h

SB bets. You should raise here. You likely have the best hand.

Turn:

Qd

Not the best card, as it's possible SB has a queen, and also possible he has diamonds and will act tricky. But you can't fear that. You need to bet here, and call down if raised. SB checks, you bet, he calls.

River:

Qh

This now completes the floped flush draw, but is actually a good card. Why? Because it doesn't introduce a new pair into the situation which beats yours, nor does it make a possible 1-card straight.

SB checks. You need to bet again. You might say, "Wait, he wouldn't call with worse!"

But he would. Remember, the flop was 456, and you raised. The SB will likely suspect you could have a busted straight draw, and very likely call with A or even K high, despite the fact that a flopped flush draw or pair is beating him.

Many will check this behind, but you need to bet here. If raised, you probably need to call, but may be able to fold, player dependent. Most times you will get called with ace high or worse in this spot, so if you're not being raised, there's a high chance you win, unless you're facing a better 5 or a weak 6.

Indeed, my opponent had A9o, called the river, and I took down the pot.

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I know aggression is your forte, and defense is mine. Here’s a move I will occasionally make on the turn in your opponent’s position. I will actually check raise and then check blind on the river. My Ace might be good. Even if I hit one on the river, I’ll probably check call. If you can re-raise me (a pretty tight player) on the turn with a pair of fives, you’re a hell of a player, and I will take note.

I pulled this move on Matt Matros in a tournament one time. He had no idea what I was doing or where he was in the hand, and checked is made flush behind me. My little pair with and Ace would have been good otherwise, but on the right board your can do it with just Ace high. I’m the type of player who hates check calling on the river. Its what weak players do, even though you have to a lot in limit. If it goes check, check and I show a nothingburger, it’ll help me get action down the road.

That's actually not a bad move, provided you're pretty sure the person isn't going to be the river when checked to.

I usually do bet the river in those spots, though I did get popped pretty good yesterday when I had the 1-card Q high flush, got check raised on turn, and then check-raised by KK (the only better flush, as A was on the board) on the blank river. Felt like a dummy. However, I see this type of shit so often the other way, where I end up being correct to bet river after turn check-raise.

Of course, it's very board dependent.

It does really get in an opponent's head when you do this to them successfully, though (that is, a double check-raise).

On a semi-related note, I like to check the turn a lot in SB/BB confrontations (as the SB), planning to either check/fold or check/raise. The BB loves to bet in this spot when checked to, so if I have a good hand, I usually get an extra bet out of check raising here, and people hate laying down blind-vs-blind hands. One exception is if there's an ace on the board, because people with worse than an ace will often check back on the turn, fearing either some trap or that they have the worst hand and the SB is just being cautious. However, if 3-bet pre by the BB, the ace is a great spot to check raise turn.