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(click above link to see entire Twitter convo)
WSOP.com manager Bill Rini's response:
WTF? What is the point of the no HUD rule if they are not going to take any action to a person caught using one?
This dumbass BTCBLADE was showing himself using it on Twitch!
:fail
This guy BTCBLADE is a huge douche bag dolt. It's hard to explain why I (and lots of others who know who he is) feel that way but his persona just comes off like that.
As for the HUDs he' isn't doing anything wrong using one for the the Bovada/WPN sites. The top right table though he appears to be using holdem indicator which is also what a lot of people use on Bovada. I didn't know they even made support for wsop.com so if that is the case then that shouldn't be allowed because it's definitely breaking the terms of service.
Bovada has a weird HUD rule where holdem indicator is a gray area but they usually don't care since it's only "in session" because of the anonymous atmosphere.
My biggest problem with this and the reason I even mentioned it to you was the response from Bill and WSOP. What does that even mean that "we've been in contact with this player regarding this issue" and then he tells randy if you see him doing it again let us know like its the players responsibility and not the sites. This is supposed to be one of the benefits of having poker in a regulated market. If a player is breaking the TOS in a regulated market its cut and dry you need to get rid of him without a warning. The precedent this sets is that you can break the TOS and nothing will happen to you.
wsop.nv has ~200 players compared to ~3000 on Bovada, and ~1000 on Chico or WPN networks. Each ban cuts WSOP player pool by 0.5%. Maybe they contacted him and warned him not to use the HUD, and threaten him with a ban if he continues. I'm guessing they are not looking for reasons to ban players, as their sites are likely losing money due to small player pools. Maybe they will just ban the winning players that cash out too often, when they catch them using a HUD.
In NJ, WSOP site can use HUDs according to NJ gaming regulations, although some sites like Party says no in their TOS. Not sure why NV gaming says no, but if they want to combine player pools with other states, they will need to standardize the rules. I believe it was NJ that said no to NV regarding merger their player pools.
I asked players in chat before if they used a HUD, and most asked me what a HUD was. I'm pretty sure the majority of rec players don't even know what a HUD is. therefor, I doubt the HUD ban on WSOP.NV effects the rec player base.
WSOP needs to come up with a strict set of rules and consequences, and stick to them.
It is bullshit that someone could get the unfair edge of using HUDs (while everyone else couldn't), and then skates away with a warning when caught.
Though I'm guessing the guy didn't know, because he was dumb enough to broadcast it!
This is out of WSOP.com NV hands in deciding this rule. If the gaming commission in Nevada says "No Huds Allowed" then this is something WSOP NV has to not only enforce but should be punished if they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Even though I think this kid knows HUDs are banned in Nevada the rule should be to warn him or even freeze/suspend his account until he acknowledges that he knows the rules. If he tries to get around it afterwards he should be banned from the site permanently.
Since he is breaking not just the licensed casinos rule but the State of Nevada Gaming Commission laws he could be subject to some legal repercussions too.
I doubt it would ever get to that but it is a form of cheating that isn't allowed within the state so it's a little different then if you violate rules on these sites that create their own form of rules and regulations.
Has there been one reported case of a players account being closed for doing something illegal or caught cheating? It was routine back in the day to get a refund to your pokerstars account due to some illegal activity almost monthly, never in my life on any other site have I ever received any type of refund.
Are we supposed to believe that a regulated site where someone can actually face some type of prosecution if caught cheating has actually deterred people from doing things that were done in the past? (obviously not they just don't monitor their games)
Also if someone is actually caught doing something wrong on these regulated sites, will they actually try and file some type of charges against them? Or simply close their account and maybe take their funds like was the policy on the unregulated sites?
Official Rule:
NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
In projecting the outcome of the game;
In keeping track of the cards played;
In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game or;
In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the commission.
Not that it's relevant to this thread but it seems like a calculator would be illegal to own, if you planned on ever using it for anything poker related.
BTCBlade is using Holdem Indicator, software based on screenscraping (unlike PT4 or HEM2 which reads the actual text based HHs)
I've used it and it's pretty lame, obv marketed for beginning players (tells you your "M" for tourneys, Ranks your starting hands, calculates pot odds etc) I Was surprised it wasn't on the list of banned software on every site. I think it might have been at one point, but until recently it was on the PokerStars Permitted list.
In BTCBlades defense, I doubt he was intentionally breaking the rules, he plays on many different sites and would be at a disadvantage on some of them vs other regs if he didn't use the Holdem Indicator (like BetOnline) the software probably just automatically attached itself to WSOP tables. He should have turned it off though.
Bill Rinni should be reprimanded here if not just outright fired. Their is a serious reason advantageous software is not allowed, and vs. unsuspecting players who aren't aware that they are being played against with it.
The fact this is probably happening at startup (command) is troublesome. Let me tell you something Bill Rini and the rest of you legal people in charge of online poker in the U.S now. Online poker players (gamblers) are always going to be looking for an edge. If you can't honestly mitigate it with internal controls that means the dirtbags are two steps ahead of you all already, and thats what ruined online poker past in the first place.
There should come a point in time where if not impossible to happen it is damn near close to it. And I don't believe that to be true at all now. Which naturally makes me question the people in control as well as the viability of online poker long-term.
Ban all HUDs for in game play at least imo.
I would like to say Pokerstars has made the first step in trying to change the industry by doing this being the big site that all the others look at but they haven't completely putting a tracker Jivaro in the client for everyone to use.
While this helps level the playing field only so many newbies are going to understand the stats properly so there is that but at least the stats that will be shown aren't 20 different things a pro can see right in front of them to exploit a rec player.
This is all true. I just caught up with this and will be writing on it tonight. It's also quite clear who BTCBLADE is, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerAndPokerThis is out of WSOP.com NV hands in deciding this rule. If the gaming commission in Nevada says "No Huds Allowed" then this is something WSOP NV has to not only enforce but should be punished if they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Even though I think this kid knows HUDs are banned in Nevada the rule should be to warn him or even freeze/suspend his account until he acknowledges that he knows the rules. If he tries to get around it afterwards he should be banned from the site permanently.
Since he is breaking not just the licensed casinos rule but the State of Nevada Gaming Commission laws he could be subject to some legal repercussions too.
I doubt it would ever get to that but it is a form of cheating that isn't allowed within the state so it's a little different then if you violate rules on these sites that create their own form of rules and regulations.
I just read your article and nice write up!Quote:
Originally Posted by haleylhThis is all true. I just caught up with this and will be writing on it tonight. It's also quite clear who BTCBLADE is, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker
It's hard to prove whether BTCBLADE knew of the rules to justify legal action even though I'd go as far as saying 99.9% he did know HUDs were banned on Nevada sites, found out his Holdem Indicator which also works for Bovada worked on there too, and then decided to use it.
The guy is not that stupid and probably was well aware of what options he has to play on as an American along with the rules but the problem is proving it. A lot of people who know who he is and his online background clearly will in our eyes not buy into the playing stupid angle but to prove that to WSOP.com and the Nevada Gambling Commission will be an extremely tough task.
A quote from your article regarding the potential legal ramifications:
I do think the max crime of up to six years in prison is very extreme for this but fine and a ban for a period of time from the site operator seems appropriate. If after that someone was to do this again then a tougher punishment seems justifiable.Quote:
A violation of NRS 465.075 is considered a category B felony and, even for a first offense, can include a prison term of between one and six years and/or a fine of up to $10,000.
The biggest issue clearly is the stance Bill Rini is spewing at us, especially if it's not just a site ruling but illegal by NGC. If WSOP.com don't enforce it then based on the way the law is written they should be held accountable where they could even lose their license to operate online.
Here is Haley's write-up: http://www.flushdraw.net/news/misc/f...ng-regulators/
I still don't understand why BTCBLADE was not simply banned or suspended upon being caught.
He broke both the TOS and the law.
It is fine if WSOP wants to suspend him and then leave the decision in the hands of Nevada Gaming, but to give him a "second chance" is pretty much nonsense on a regulated site, and sounds illegal to me.
Haley's article says that BTCBLADE is Tommy Chen, who is an experienced player.
http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/pict...mmy%20Chen.jpg
[QUOTE=BeerAndPoker;495831]I don't think he'd get more than a fine and probation, either, assuming the investigation is real and all the allegations are true. I'd compare it with the sentence that Micon got.Quote:
Originally Posted by haleylh
[QUOTE=haleylh;495846]Enjoyed that article haleyhQuote:
Originally Posted by BeerAndPokerI don't think he'd get more than a fine and probation, either, assuming the investigation is real and all the allegations are true. I'd compare it with the sentence that Micon got.Quote:
Originally Posted by haleylh
In life you don't necessarily ever want to be, THAT guy. The one who an example needs to be made of, because its going to have to happen and to someone along the way. He very well may be THAT guy and he brazenly skirted the rules seeing as he was even twitching it out as well. Fact of the matter is, the rules are only going to be taken seriously, especially by online poker players who often largely they they are 'smarter' than the house. Promise you all that, imo some of these people think they are 2 steps ahead of these sites/regulators etc in their ability to have advantageous software and use it undetected. It is 100% the same as going into a brick and mortar casino with a device that is not allowed and which gives them a huge advantage, or jackpot.
The Biggest risk also, and its not overly talked about is the people who are doing this stuff honestly are good players as well. You give an already excelling player an advantageous piece of software to play against, people who honestly are following the rules and they are going to scrape them more and faster. Ultimately just hurting their own bottom line and ecosystem. They will withdraw more and faster and never deposit.
I dont like seeing people act as if this should be taken lightly, we all saw how this destroyed the post Moneymaker boom over time you all have real balls acting liek this isnt a huge issue if it isn't dealt with severely and made an example of. Because if this one gets a slap on the wrist, in a poker players mind it becomes simple risk/reward calculus. If he gets 6 mo probation and only like a $1200 fine they laugh at that. BTCBLADE is sitting $2.50/$$5 on a $563.50 stack...
Players would evaluate the risk of maybe getting slapped on the risk with a meh, 6 mo probation and a ~$1200 fine as joke.. Especially the people who play high enough stakes, which would also be the ones who would want, and would benefit the most from these/this (reg vs reg battles).
Nevada has a real chance to make a clear stand here and really hoping they do not drop the ball.
where are americans allowed to play these days? im ready to get back in the game.
Americas Cardroom or Ignition (Bovada 2.0) are your best options.Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaistheteam