Ah, Leah! Obvious heads-up chip dump at WPT Fallsview allows Mike Leah to buy a title

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Originally Posted by chinamaniac

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

His extra POY points should be removed (downgraded as if he finished 2nd), and his TOC seat should be revoked. He did not rightfully earn either.

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Ok, what if he had a chiplead and won the tourney or was down 55 45 in chips and made a deal?

Where do you draw the line?

If a deal is made at any of these final tables then you think nobody should benefit from it?

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WPT should make clear rules about dealmaking and aggressively enforce them. That was the first problem here.

But regarding your question, I feel that anyone who is BEHIND in chips should NEVER be awarded a title in any tournament.

If you are the chipleader, and if chopping is allowed by tournament rules, then I am fine with you being declared the winner. Otherwise no.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Just curious, in your example, was the dumper also the one with more chips? That's what made this one particularly egregious. Well, that plus the fact that it was a WPT Main Event.

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They were roughly equal.

How is it all of a sudden a surprise that people buy titles and championships? Have you not been around this game as long as I have Druff? How can you be so naive to think this is a one off? I am truly baffled by some of the people that are complaining about this.

For sure, it happens in different ways and most are less obvious than others. However, there are two things that guarantee a HUGE edge in acquiring championships and trophies in Poker and those are CASH & NOTORIETY. A combination of both will get you many "accomplishments". To call anything in poker "Prestigious" is delusional and or naive.

How about when 7 Germans enter a high roller with a field of 24 playing from the same bankroll?
How about Invitationals?
WSOP Rebuy events?
How about "famous" players having their tournament buy-ins paid for by sponsors?

Now, in order for there to be a crime there must be a victim. Tell me who the victim is? and don't say TOC/POY bs, the other players equity in those events do not change one fraction because of this..

I'd make the same deal as Ryan Yu if I was up against a player who I considered much better than me which is obviously the case here.

Maybe Yu knows he can't play the TOC under any circumstances & this is the only tournament he's entered that has POY points & doesn't give a flying fuck about that either but could sure use an extra 200K liquid even though he's clearly the underdog in his mind?

What's the winning % of someone with a 2 to 1 lead when heads up begins? What is it when the chip leader is clearly an amateur against a seasoned pro? Pretty sure I'm still an underdog to most pros even holding a 2 to 1 chip lead heads up & that's a fact.

Both made good deals &, regardless of what Druff says, the WPT can't go changing the fucking rules midstream because something that could have been totally predicted, given their "no deals" rules, happened.

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Originally Posted by Hockey Guy

I'd make the same deal as Ryan Yu if I was up against a player who I considered much better than me which is obviously the case here.

Maybe Yu knows he can't play the TOC under any circumstances & this is the only tournament he's entered that has POY points & doesn't give a flying fuck about that either but could sure use an extra 200K liquid even though he's clearly the underdog in his mind?

What's the winning % of someone with a 2 to 1 lead when heads up begins? What is it when the chip leader is clearly an amateur against a seasoned pro? Pretty sure I'm still an underdog to most pros even holding a 2 to 1 chip lead heads up & that's a fact.

Both made good deals &, regardless of what Druff says, the WPT can't go changing the fucking rules midstream because something that could have been totally predicted, given their "no deals" rules, happened.

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I don't understand what you're trying to say here at the end.

I didn't say the WPT should change their rules midstream.

I said the WPT should enforce their existing rules regarding deals.

To me, this looks like the local tournament director at Fallsview didn't give a shit about upholding the WPT "no deals" rule, so he just let them make an under-the-table deal (as I'm sure he has allowed many times before at WPT events), and then had them "play it out" so the WPT brass would be satisfied. However, he didn't expect that the chips would jus be dumped off in this blatant fashion, and now everyone looks bad.

Someone on 2+2 alleged that "his buddy" also dumped off his chips to Mike Leah at a previous year's WPT Fallsview event heads up. It was supposedly at an $1100 buyin prelim event.

No proof of this was supplied, nor was the "buddy" named.

However, another look at Leah's statement has his four previous Fallsview wins NOT listed under "tournaments I didn't chop", so I'm assuming he probably chopped those, as well, and perhaps in similar fashion. Maybe he got away with it under the radar previously because they were prelim events, and no one was paying attention.

Who won the tournament? Leah did.

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Originally Posted by johnysprinkles

How is it all of a sudden a surprise that people buy titles and championships? Have you not been around this game as long as I have Druff? How can you be so naive to think this is a one off? I am truly baffled by some of the people that are complaining about this.

For sure, it happens in different ways and most are less obvious than others. However, there are two things that guarantee a HUGE edge in acquiring championships and trophies in Poker and those are CASH & NOTORIETY. A combination of both will get you many "accomplishments". To call anything in poker "Prestigious" is delusional and or naive.

How about when 7 Germans enter a high roller with a field of 24 playing from the same bankroll?
How about Invitationals?
WSOP Rebuy events?
How about "famous" players having their tournament buy-ins paid for by sponsors?

Now, in order for there to be a crime there must be a victim. Tell me who the victim is? and don't say TOC/POY bs, the other players equity in those events do not change one fraction because of this..

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There wasn't a crime.

I don't feel Leah should be punished in any way, nor do I feel his money should be confiscated.

And yes, the "victims" here are the POY/TOC players, because they now have to compete with Mike Leah instead of Ryan Yu, and Mike is a bigger threat to them.

Even putting that part aside, he violated WPT rules, and he also made poker look horrible when amateurs read that on the WPT site. Even Mike admits the optics were terrible on this one.

I understand your points, but you're making something too complicated about something simple.

WPT rules do not allow for chip-dumping to attain first place.

Attaining first place comes with the benefits of extra POY points and a TOC seat, so this is likely part of the reason why they don't allow such things.

Mike and Ryan engaged in chip-dumping to manufacture a phony win for Mike, when in reality he had a 2.3:1 chip deficit, and was an underdog to win when heads up play began.

Simply put, it is never appropriate for a non-chip-leader to be crowned winner of an event, especially if it happens through chip dumping to circumvent tour rules.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by johnysprinkles

How is it all of a sudden a surprise that people buy titles and championships? Have you not been around this game as long as I have Druff? How can you be so naive to think this is a one off? I am truly baffled by some of the people that are complaining about this.

For sure, it happens in different ways and most are less obvious than others. However, there are two things that guarantee a HUGE edge in acquiring championships and trophies in Poker and those are CASH & NOTORIETY. A combination of both will get you many "accomplishments". To call anything in poker "Prestigious" is delusional and or naive.

How about when 7 Germans enter a high roller with a field of 24 playing from the same bankroll?
How about Invitationals?
WSOP Rebuy events?
How about "famous" players having their tournament buy-ins paid for by sponsors?

Now, in order for there to be a crime there must be a victim. Tell me who the victim is? and don't say TOC/POY bs, the other players equity in those events do not change one fraction because of this..

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There wasn't a crime.

I don't feel Leah should be punished in any way, nor do I feel his money should be confiscated.

And yes, the "victims" here are the POY/TOC players, because they now have to compete with Mike Leah instead of Ryan Yu, and Mike is a bigger threat to them.

Even putting that part aside, he violated WPT rules, and he also made poker look horrible when amateurs read that on the WPT site. Even Mike admits the optics were terrible on this one.

I understand your points, but you're making something too complicated about something simple.

WPT rules do not allow for chip-dumping to attain first place.

Attaining first place comes with the benefits of extra POY points and a TOC seat, so this is likely part of the reason why they don't allow such things.

Mike and Ryan engaged in chip-dumping to manufacture a phony win for Mike, when in reality he had a 2.3:1 chip deficit, and was an underdog to win when heads up play began.

Simply put, it is never appropriate for a non-chip-leader to be crowned winner of an event, especially if it happens through chip dumping to circumvent tour rules.

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It's pathetic. Chopping is one thing this is ugly and sad

Of COURSE it’s a big deal for the TOC...both players have acknowledged that Leah is the better player...who do you think the TOC field wants to see in that field more Yu or Leah

Who knows how much of this goes on done a little less blatantly.

I had experiences with Leah a few years ago. I actually thought he was playing badly playing too many hands with a big stack in a satellite. Apparently he thought I was a weak-tight donk and was taking bullying a little far. He busted me out of a satellite hitting a 3-outer after being pot committed to call my shove. Then he hands me my mostly empty drink glass and says "throw this away on your way out". I threw the drink on his chest and left. Then the next tournament, he wins a pot from me and makes a separate stack of all the chips he won from me. Seemed like an aggressive jerk. If I was a fish, then why try to chase me out of the games.