Commerce kills free food for middle and high limit players, effective 3/1/15

Reportedly, Commerce will stop giving free food to middle and high limit players, starting March 1, 2015.

Commerce has a much higher rake than its Vegas counterparts (at least at the middle and high limits), but has somewhat compensated that by making free food available.

This took place in their "top section" room, which houses 20-40 limit games and above, as well as 10-20 NL and above.

Prior to this year, Commerce had a players club card, but the benefits were laughably bad. You earned 25 cents per hour, which could only be used for food or other items from the casino. Most high limit players didn't bother, with the food being free anyway.

Starting in 2015, games from 20-40 to 60-120 will earn $1.50 per hour, and 100-200 and above will earn $2 per hour. Not sure what they are doing for the NL games, but probably something similar. However, there will be no more free food starting March 1, so overall this deal is bad for the players.

Yet another reason to hate Commerce.

As if the corrupt staff, angle-shooting, and perpetually angry regulars weren't enough...

On Twitter, Mike "Schneids" Schneider brought up an interesting point.

He said that the waiters and waitresses will be making a lot less in tips, as most high limit players "auto tipped $5 because the food was free", which was true.

However, I don't feel too bad for them. I found that the Commerce servers were getting arrogant and entitled when it came to tipping, for exactly this reason.

This is because they aren't traditional "servers". They don't come around to check on you. They don't let you order appetizers and come back later to see what you want for your main course. They don't refill your drinks.

They are just order takers and delivery people. They drop your food off on your tray, and that's the last you see of them.

Therefore, they honestly shouldn't be tipped like regular servers, and in fact don't do much more work than someone working at the takeout counter of a restaurant. The only difference is that they do more walking.

I'm not saying these people shouldn't be tipped. However, when I would tip $3-$4 for a meal (again, which they bring to me all at once), I would rarely get a "thank you", and in fact would often notice them making a face like I was a cheapskate. This was because they got used to the $5/person from many others in high limit (and sometimes more), so I looked like a jerk for giving $3-$4, even though that was generous on an absolute basis.

So F them.

what part of your brain is like you know what the 1 dollar i save to tip 4 instead of just giving a 5 is worth it to me

like its not even a value proposition cuz you know you get shit on for doing it like where does this come from its just idiotic behavior dangiel hand the guy 5 for bringing you a free sandwich realize that hes clocking in driving to work paying rent in california and youre holding onto that extra dollar is so dumb in the grand scheme of things

If true, then I will just play limit hold'em at Hustler, Hawaiian Gardens, and maybe the Bike. I imagine many of the other mid limit players will as well. The players who play stud, PLO, ect. might be SOL, because there are not other games around town that I am aware of.

BTW, I usually tip $3 for a comped meal at Commerce. Never felt that the wait staff was anything but appreciative. Also, Commerce has always comped my wife's meal when she is watching me play.

I think they reverse this because of the backlash from the players, or losing games to the other California cardrooms.

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Originally Posted by lol wow

like its not even a value proposition cuz you know you get shit on for doing it like where does this come from its just idiotic behavior dangiel hand the guy 5 for bringing you a free sandwich realize that hes clocking in driving to work paying rent in california and youre holding onto that extra dollar is so dumb in the grand scheme of things

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I gave $5 a few times, then I thought better of it.

Why?

Not because I'm a greedy Jew, but just because I decided $5 was ridiculous. They are taking a food order and bringing it to me. The food itself is worth like $15 tops, often only $10. They are serving a ton of different people per hour, since it doesn't require to spend a lot of time with each person. In fact, often they are bringing out others' food on the same tray as mine, which is fine, but these people are making a lot here compared to other low-wage Commerce workers. Again, they aren't the same as restaurant servers who wait on me throughout the entire meal.

I don't see the food as "free". I see it as Commerce itself (NOT the server) giving it to me as part of the exorbitant rake I'm paying. Just because I'm not paying for the food directly doesn't mean that it's actually "free".

So after giving $5 a few times, I thought about it and said, "You know what? $3 is very generous for what's being done here, and I'll make it $4 when I order a few things at once, but that's where I stop."

Why? Because I'm already tipping more than enough, and you have to draw the line somewhere.

And if you feel guilty that these people need the money, save the extra $1 and hand it to the janitors/porters you see around the place, as they make a LOT less, and work harder than most servers.

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Originally Posted by matos

I think they reverse this because of the backlash from the players, or losing games to the other California cardrooms.

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You would think that, but I bet they don't.

Poker rooms tend to be clueless like this. They get set in their ways, and often will shoot themselves in the foot, refusing to believe that any of their policies or actions could be self-defeating. In fact, this sort of thinking is what destroyed the once-thriving Hollywood Park room, and allowed Commerce to rise up and basically take their place at the top of the LA-area poker heap.

Commerce has been losing business for awhile now (they're still #1, though), and they are not modifying anything to get that business back. They still delude themselves into believing it's 2006, and that people will keep playing regardless of what they do.

Here is an anecdote I like to tell regarding the cluelessness and inflexibility of poker rooms.

The Hustler, also in the LA area, tried to get a 50-100 game going some years back. At the time I lived in Vegas, but Hustler was closer to where I would stay when I would come to CA, so I preferred the place over Commerce. It's also nicer and lower-key than Commerce. However, they didn't run anything above 25-50, so I didn't go there often. I was thrilled to hear they were trying out 50-100.

However, the game was quickly dying because they were making 50-100 a rake game instead of a time charge. I tried to explain to them that the comparable game at Commerce -- 60-120 -- had a time charge. I tried to explain that shorthanded games are FAR more expensive for the player if it's a rake, but they didn't care. I kept repeating, "Nobody is going to break the habit of playing 60-120 at Commerce if you're going to charge far more rake over here for your new game."

I was dismissed like I didn't know what I was talking about. Most of the other players expressed the same concern. They were also ignored.

Within a few weeks, there was no more 50-100 game, due to "lack of players".

Hmmm... wonder why that happened.

What's also funny is that Commerce went from one extreme to the other on this.

They've always been extremely liberal when it comes to giving free food in the top section. Basically, if you're in the room, you get free food.

If you're the friend/wife/girlfriend of a seated player, you get free food.

If you're waiting for a game, you get free food.

If you're just hanging around in the room and look like you belong, you get free food.

This wasn't the official policy, but that's how it operated since that second room opened in 2002.

I used to encourage Ken Scalir to clean up a bit and go there for the free food (saying he's "waiting"), but it was too far from where he lived to make it worth it. But they totally would have given him free food on a regular basis without question.

So I would totally understand if they clamped down and only gave the free food to seated players, but this is an extreme change the other way. Now players who show up for 5-hour sessions will get a whopping $7.50 to spend on food, which honestly isn't enough. It won't really affect me much, as I tend to show up infrequently and play a long time, so I will probably "earn" more than I'll spend.

The Florida comp situation isn't great either. Palm Beach Kennel Club you get ZERO. Hard Rock Hollywood (an hour away) you can get a $1/hr. The Isle is the best as with a select card (semi easy to get) you get $1.44/hr.....

That being said last week I stumbled across a guy while playing 20/40 HOSE. He had a deal with the poker manager where if you played 20/40 for 5 hours plus and then loosely agreed to make sure you play in the game from time to time he would get you upgraded to a platinum card.... and at platinum you get $4 an hour! I guess he is school buddies with the GM of the property and he wants to try and build a 20/40 HOSE clientele.

Took me 3 months to get $90 in comps at the Isle. In the past two weeks I earned another $72.

Someones gotta kill it...even if it's a plant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC9UM4ecDPg

lol

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Originally Posted by FRANKRIZZO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC9UM4ecDPg

lol

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Typical Commerce angle shot. No way the guy is folding on the turn to the all-in bet given the pot and stack sizes. This is on the dealer however. She should have confirmed the call before the river card was exposed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jayjami

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FRANKRIZZO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC9UM4ecDPg

lol

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Typical Commerce angle shot. No way the guy is folding on the turn to the all-in bet given the pot and stack sizes. This is on the dealer however. She should have confirmed the call before the river card was exposed.

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All the betting was in on the turn and guy flipped over his cards on the river which makes it so lol. That was why guy was saying guy still has cards why didn't he muck them on turn. Floor and dealer were clueless as could be.

speaking of card rooms and food...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMf2mFqIdgI

Who is John Gault?

Went to Commerce last night. It is official. No more free food, at least in the 20/40 and 40/80 sections. Had to use my players card, which has $20 of credit. They are even charging for bottled water!

I let the floor know I was not happy and that I would be playing more often at Hustler and Hawaiian Gardens. He told me that all the card rooms will be charging in the near future. I doubt that is true. The room was pretty quiet. Only 2 20/40 and 3 40/80 limit Hold'em games going.

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Originally Posted by Jayjami

Went to Commerce last night. It is official. No more free food, at least in the 20/40 and 40/80 sections. Had to use my players card, which has $20 of credit. They are even charging for bottled water!

I let the floor know I was not happy and that I would be playing more often at Hustler and Hawaiian Gardens. He told me that all the card rooms will be charging in the near future. I doubt that is true. The room was pretty quiet. Only 2 20/40 and 3 40/80 limit Hold'em games going.

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BNP posted a "Live at the Bike" video featuring StickyRice.

Couple of things stuck with me after skimming it.

One of the announcers was talking about the Commerce being a ghost town now.

Another was paying a monthly $9.95 fee to watch a $3/5 NL game with a bunch of locals. Was that the best game spread - dear jesus? It did have StickyRice and he clowned it up a bit but WTF has poker become?

Just as online poker had a lot of wretched excess that has disappeared - you are witnessing the end of the fun comps in brick and mortar.

The big casino companies are pretty fucked up right now. As stupid as they were with over building etc - some will swing too far the other way (like charging for water).

If playing at Walmart is their model, just let us game online.

You can still get free food playing $1000+/hand paigow poker. Todd - next time you are at the commerce, I will get you a free plate.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by lol wow

like its not even a value proposition cuz you know you get shit on for doing it like where does this come from its just idiotic behavior dangiel hand the guy 5 for bringing you a free sandwich realize that hes clocking in driving to work paying rent in california and youre holding onto that extra dollar is so dumb in the grand scheme of things

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I gave $5 a few times, then I thought better of it.

Why?

Not because I'm a greedy Jew, but just because I decided $5 was ridiculous. They are taking a food order and bringing it to me. The food itself is worth like $15 tops, often only $10. They are serving a ton of different people per hour, since it doesn't require to spend a lot of time with each person. In fact, often they are bringing out others' food on the same tray as mine, which is fine, but these people are making a lot here compared to other low-wage Commerce workers. Again, they aren't the same as restaurant servers who wait on me throughout the entire meal.

I don't see the food as "free". I see it as Commerce itself (NOT the server) giving it to me as part of the exorbitant rake I'm paying. Just because I'm not paying for the food directly doesn't mean that it's actually "free".

So after giving $5 a few times, I thought about it and said, "You know what? $3 is very generous for what's being done here, and I'll make it $4 when I order a few things at once, but that's where I stop."

Why? Because I'm already tipping more than enough, and you have to draw the line somewhere.

And if you feel guilty that these people need the money, save the extra $1 and hand it to the janitors/porters you see around the place, as they make a LOT less, and work harder than most servers.

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When the food is free all you have to do is tip 20percent of the value of the food......

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Originally Posted by Sanlmar

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Originally Posted by Jayjami

Went to Commerce last night. It is official. No more free food, at least in the 20/40 and 40/80 sections. Had to use my players card, which has $20 of credit. They are even charging for bottled water!

I let the floor know I was not happy and that I would be playing more often at Hustler and Hawaiian Gardens. He told me that all the card rooms will be charging in the near future. I doubt that is true. The room was pretty quiet. Only 2 20/40 and 3 40/80 limit Hold'em games going.

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BNP posted a "Live at the Bike" video featuring StickyRice.

Couple of things stuck with me after skimming it.

One of the announcers was talking about the Commerce being a ghost town now.

Another was paying a monthly $9.95 fee to watch a $3/5 NL game with a bunch of locals. Was that the best game spread - dear jesus? It did have StickyRice and he clowned it up a bit but WTF has poker become?

Just as online poker had a lot of wretched excess that has disappeared - you are witnessing the end of the fun comps in brick and mortar.

The big casino companies are pretty fucked up right now. As stupid as they were with over building etc - some will swing too far the other way (like charging for water).

If playing at Walmart is their model, just let us game online.

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I don't mind paying for food, if the rake is lower. Artichoke Joe's in Burlingame is run this way. They have super cheap good Asian food and a low rake. They still have "no flop, no drop"! Many Nevada rooms don't comp food either. I can understand Commerce's position as well, because many players abuse their food privileges, but for the rake they charge in 20/40 and 40/80, they are still making a hefty profit. This appears to be a bean-counter move.

Artichoke Joe is doing it right in my opinion..there should be more small stand alone spots like that..

Just saw this thread. I have only played at Hustler since March 1st, so I cannot independently confirm, but from what I am told HG, Commerce and the Bike planned this move together. For now, Hustler (and Hollywood Park) are still doing the free food thing to top section. Hustler even gives free food from a special menu (with less options) to the 8-16 players.

I have been playing at Hustler for several years, almost exclusively 25-50, including through the 50-100 period, which actually lasted for over a good year. I wanna say it lasted for a couple years, but maybe not. I will ask a floorman next time I go to Hustler and find out.

Hustler, unlike Commerce, is actually pretty good about reducing the rake during short handed play, taking $1/hand for 4 handed, $2/hand for 5, and $3/hand for 6 (this includes jackpot and isn't great, but a lot better than Commerce).

It was always too big and out of my comfort zone for it to be my main game, but I played the 50-100 maybe 20 times total when the games were good and I was running good. I don't remember the rake vs collection thing being a big issue. I don't remember ever seeing Druff in this game, but I do remember seeing Druff (and Neverwin) playing 100-200 and higher at Commerce during this time period. The 50-100 might actually have been too small for Druff during this time.

I think what happened is what happened to limit poker in general. When the online games dried up, all the good online limit players moved to Los Angeles to play live and the pro/fish ratio got too skewed. The fish (and recreational guys like me who weren't pros but could beat a soft lineup) lost too much money and stopped playing and/or dropped down. The Hustler 50-100 was basically supported by a very small pool of fish, and a lot of good players who would only play if a mark or two was in the game. Eventually the fish ran out of money and dropped down or quit playing, and that was that. I doubt if a time charge would have mattered all that much.

I am friendly with a couple of the pros who used to play that game everyday. I will ask them what they think next time I see them and ask them if the rake vs time charge was a big deal.

FWIW, the $60-120 rarely goes anymore. Basically it is the same dynamic at Commerce I stated above for the Hustler 50-100. There is ~25 good players in the top section on any given day who are more than willing to play 60-120, but will only play if a couple fish are in the game and the game will break the second the fish quit, so the game will sporadically start up around a couple fish and break as soon as they are done.

I honestly believe if there were less very good limit holdem pros in So Cal the mid and high limit games would be thriving more, because the regs, both fish and decent playing recreational players, will lose their money a lot slower and have more winning sessions. But I can't blame the pros too much. What else are they gonna do? There really is no consistent high limit limit holdem pretty much anywhere else in the world other than Commerce Casino anymore.

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Originally Posted by verminaard

Just saw this thread. I have only played at Hustler since March 1st, so I cannot independently confirm, but from what I am told HG, Commerce and the Bike planned this move together. For now, Hustler (and Hollywood Park) are still doing the free food thing to top section. Hustler even gives free food from a special menu (with less options) to the 8-16 players.

I have been playing at Hustler for several years, almost exclusively 25-50, including through the 50-100 period, which actually lasted for over a good year. I wanna say it lasted for a couple years, but maybe not. I will ask a floorman next time I go to Hustler and find out.

Hustler, unlike Commerce, is actually pretty good about reducing the rake during short handed play, taking $1/hand for 4 handed, $2/hand for 5, and $3/hand for 6 (this includes jackpot and isn't great, but a lot better than Commerce).

It was always too big and out of my comfort zone for it to be my main game, but I played the 50-100 maybe 20 times total when the games were good and I was running good. I don't remember the rake vs collection thing being a big issue. I don't remember ever seeing Druff in this game, but I do remember seeing Druff (and Neverwin) playing 100-200 and higher at Commerce during this time period. The 50-100 might actually have been too small for Druff during this time.

I think what happened is what happened to limit poker in general. When the online games dried up, all the good online limit players moved to Los Angeles to play live and the pro/fish ratio got too skewed. The fish (and recreational guys like me who weren't pros but could beat a soft lineup) lost too much money and stopped playing and/or dropped down. The Hustler 50-100 was basically supported by a very small pool of fish, and a lot of good players who would only play if a mark or two was in the game. Eventually the fish ran out of money and dropped down or quit playing, and that was that. I doubt if a time charge would have mattered all that much.

I am friendly with a couple of the pros who used to play that game everyday. I will ask them what they think next time I see them and ask them if the rake vs time charge was a big deal.

FWIW, the $60-120 rarely goes anymore. Basically it is the same dynamic at Commerce I stated above for the Hustler 50-100. There is ~25 good players in the top section on any given day who are more than willing to play 60-120, but will only play if a couple fish are in the game and the game will break the second the fish quit, so the game will sporadically start up around a couple fish and break as soon as they are done.

I honestly believe if there were less very good limit holdem pros in So Cal the mid and high limit games would be thriving more, because the regs, both fish and decent playing recreational players, will lose their money a lot slower and have more winning sessions. But I can't blame the pros too much. What else are they gonna do? There really is no consistent high limit limit holdem pretty much anywhere else in the world other than Commerce Casino anymore.

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Excellent post. Totally agree with you that the mid-limit hold 'em games in LA are as tough as they have ever been (but not unbeatable). Your explanation as to why makes a lot a sense. Agree that Hustler tends to be more player friendly. Probably because 25/50 is the biggest game there.

Maybe we found different incarnations of the 50-100 at Hustler. That is, perhaps they tried it a few different times.

When I saw it, the game only existed for a short time (definitely less than 2 months), and the rake was definitely the reason it died. Regs were constantly complaining about it to one another, and everyone was further pissed that Hustler management wasn't listening and wouldn't change it.

Eventually the complainers about the rake stopped showing up (myself included), and it stopped running.

I do believe that there are 25-50 regulars who would happily step up to a raked 50-100 if fish are willing to play it, but that's not the way to get a regular game going.

Hustler had a chance to grab some of Commerce's 40-80/60-120 action at the time, and they blew it by charging MORE than Commerce's 60-120 for a less active game.

On a side note, Commerce has increased their rake enough to where Hustler might be able to beat them now with the identical 50-100 rake game, but as you said, there's not enough LHE action these days to make it happen in all likelihood.

I played at Hustler from 2003-2005 and again from 2007-present. I moved out of town for a couple years. The iteration of the 50-100 I am talking about is from 2007-2009? (not sure when it finally ended). Maybe you are talking about an earlier iteration? By 2007 all yellow and brown chip games were rake + jackpot drop and I think most everyone had gotten used to rake + jackpot, so it wasn't really an issue I don't think. In fact, I think if they tried to not have a jackpot there probably would have been a problem. Hustler seeds their jackpots real high (starting at 40k), and it is definitely something most of the players seem to like, even if it still isn't in their best interests from an EV perspective.

I know for a fact that current management has stated they will not randomly start a 50-100 game to accommodate a big fish. The reason being it would piss off too many of the 25-50 regs who aren't comfortable jumping up and don't want to see their fishes taken from them. Also, the 25-50 just isn't that strong anymore, rarely ever reaching even 3 games.

BUMP

Went to Commerce twice this week.

The good news is that the middle limit and high limit holdem scene is kinda back there. Somehow they wrestled it away from the Bike.

The bad news is that the food situation is a complete fail. I know I was bitching about this situation in 2015, but I'd LOVE to have the 2015 version back at this point.

Let me count the ways:

- You no longer earn any points toward food. Everyone pays the same, whether they walked in off the street or are regular players who log 12 hours per day. FAIL.

- The food is not cheap anymore. They used to sell fairly decent food at below market prices. Not anymore! Now it's $15 for a burger. Again, FAIL.

- The selection sucks balls. You used to have a huge menu with many different types of food. Then that menu was only available during the hours of like 7am to 1am, but at least it was available most of the day, and you had a reduced menu late at night. Now there is just a small menu of choices. FAIL.

- No more food runners. You need to go get it yourself from a pickup area. While it's nice to be rid of the tip-hustling, it sucks when you want to just stay at the table without having to get up and take a round off to pick up the food. FAIL.


Oh, and they charge $1 for a Commerce branded bottled water now.

Just terrible all around. Eating like a pig used to be one of my pleasures of playing at Commerce, and somewhat made me feel better about the high rake. Not anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

BUMP

Went to Commerce twice this week.

The good news is that the middle limit and high limit holdem scene is kinda back there. Somehow they wrestled it away from the Bike.

The bad news is that the food situation is a complete fail. I know I was bitching about this situation in 2015, but I'd LOVE to have the 2015 version back at this point.

Let me count the ways:

- You no longer earn any points toward food. Everyone pays the same, whether they walked in off the street or are regular players who log 12 hours per day. FAIL.

- The food is not cheap anymore. They used to sell fairly decent food at below market prices. Not anymore! Now it's $15 for a burger. Again, FAIL.

- The selection sucks balls. You used to have a huge menu with many different types of food. Then that menu was only available during the hours of like 7am to 1am, but at least it was available most of the day, and you had a reduced menu late at night. Now there is just a small menu of choices. FAIL.

- No more food runners. You need to go get it yourself from a pickup area. While it's nice to be rid of the tip-hustling, it sucks when you want to just stay at the table without having to get up and take a round off to pick up the food. FAIL.


Oh, and they charge $1 for a Commerce branded bottled water now.

Just terrible all around. Eating like a pig used to be one of my pleasures of playing at Commerce, and somewhat made me feel better about the high rake. Not anymore.

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I know this is unrelated to the food topic at Commerce but it's also an epic fail now with their 4 seasonal tournament series. The latest one starts in September and the structures are terrible, all of them. So many levels skipped and the main event is now $600. That's the biggest buyin they have in this series. And zero guarantees. From someone who remembers even a few years ago when Commerce had lots of good tournaments with good structures and decent guarantees, what they have now is a f'n joke. Seems to me the whole place has gone downhill significantly and it keeps getting worse. For me I have zero interest of setting foot inside that place again.

When I first started playing casino poker at Casino Sandia in Albuquerque many years ago, they had a buffet that was free for seated poker players. I gained about 20 pounds in 4 months. One time I brought a girlfriend to watch me play and the poker room manager Larry Riggenburg (RIP) made a big show of bringing her a chair and then presenting me with 2 "free" buffet tickets like I was some sort of bigshot. I loved that guy!
Soon after that they stopped the free food deal and charged $5 for poker players. Larry told me that they had to do it because nearby food places were complaining they were losing business.
The best food deal I've ever seen was at Crystal Park casino in Comton (Oh, excuse me, "Crystal City", but that's another story.)
I was there sometime in the 90's when it had just opened or just been through major renovations. I was comped room and food because I played a lot of hours. This was 20-40 LHE. They had like a 4 star kitchen. Excellent food. After a couple of days a waiter would see me come in, immediately bring me a cold coke and a menu, and take my order. There was some kind of Thai chicken dish that was particularly partial to.
Unfortunately, I couldn't beat the game and had to leave after about a week. I believe there was rampant cheating with collusion and card marking. Someone would point out a mark or a tear and ask for a deck change about every 20 minutes.
It sure was fun for awhile though!